Just points out that neither passage really should be used ass a proof text to show can lose real eternal life!
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The Saved Backslider
- Thread starter rockytopva
- Start date
The "this" in the above quote referred to people hardening their own hearts through the practice of sin. I included Romans 9:18 to provide a complete list of the word usage, although the verse is non-germane because it refers to being hardened by God rather than us hardening ourselves by the practice of sin.
Act 19:9
But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
Romans 9:18
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Hebrews 3:8
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Hebrews 3:13
But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:15
while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
Hebrews 4:7
He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
Matthew 13:4
and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
Matthew 13:19
“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
The idea is that the roadway has been trampled down, by the practice of sin, so the seed (the gospel message) does not enter the hardened heart, and Satan takes away understanding of the message.
Ephesians 4:17
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
Ephesians 4:19
and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality or the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
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I think you may have responded before I added the Ephesians verses which do say their understanding was darkened.
I believe what scripture does say, rather than what it does not say. The ability to understand the gospel can be lost through the practice of sin. Nowhere does it say, once lost, it can be recovered. OTOH, scripture says what little we have, that too can be taken away.
Luke 8:5
“The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up.
Luke 8:12
“Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Sounds kind of permanent to me.
“The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up.
Luke 8:12
“Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Sounds kind of permanent to me.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
If the verses I provided do not teach the truth that by the practice of sin, a person can lose the ability to believe and be saved, there is nothing more I can provide.
Luke 8:18
“So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
Here is a snippet from a commentary on Luke 8:12
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 12. - Those by the wayside are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the Word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. The wayside hearers represent the great outer circle of men and women who more or less respect religion. It must be carefully borne in mind that in none of the four classes pictured in the parable are despisers of God, declared enemies of religion, portrayed. To these the gospel, with its warnings and its promises, rarely if ever speaks. These of "the wayside" are they whose hearts resemble a footpath, beaten hard and fiat by the constant passing to and fro of wishes of the flesh, of thoughts concerning earthly things, mere sordid hopes and fears. Into these hearts the Word can never really penetrate. Momentary influence now and again seems to have been gained, but the many watchful agents of the evil one, with swift wings, like birds of the air, swoop down and snatch away the scattered seed which for a moment seemed as though it would take root. Judas Iscariot the Jew, and Pontius Pilate the Roman, might be instanced as types of this class. These - before their awful fate - both appeared to have been moved. The one for long months followed the Lord and was trusted by him; the other pitied, and for a moment in his - Pilate's case - pity seemed passing into love and admiration, and tried to find a way of escape for the innocent Prisoner. But the one betrayed, and the other delivered to death, the sinless Son of God!
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 12. - Those by the wayside are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the Word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. The wayside hearers represent the great outer circle of men and women who more or less respect religion. It must be carefully borne in mind that in none of the four classes pictured in the parable are despisers of God, declared enemies of religion, portrayed. To these the gospel, with its warnings and its promises, rarely if ever speaks. These of "the wayside" are they whose hearts resemble a footpath, beaten hard and fiat by the constant passing to and fro of wishes of the flesh, of thoughts concerning earthly things, mere sordid hopes and fears. Into these hearts the Word can never really penetrate. Momentary influence now and again seems to have been gained, but the many watchful agents of the evil one, with swift wings, like birds of the air, swoop down and snatch away the scattered seed which for a moment seemed as though it would take root. Judas Iscariot the Jew, and Pontius Pilate the Roman, might be instanced as types of this class. These - before their awful fate - both appeared to have been moved. The one for long months followed the Lord and was trusted by him; the other pitied, and for a moment in his - Pilate's case - pity seemed passing into love and admiration, and tried to find a way of escape for the innocent Prisoner. But the one betrayed, and the other delivered to death, the sinless Son of God!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I believe salvation comes from God, start to finish.
In reality, the basic default condition of all of humanity is an inability to believe the gospel.
Only when God intervenes does the ability to hear and respond to the gospel become a reality.
God choses. I do not believe the amount of sin in a person’s life is a criteria for the choice. That would mean a merit based choosing by God for salvation; those with lesser sin can be chosen, those with greater sin have been disqualified.
Additionally, none of the verses you referenced indicate accumulated sin will eventually render the person permanently unable to respond to the gospel.
Peace to you
In reality, the basic default condition of all of humanity is an inability to believe the gospel.
Only when God intervenes does the ability to hear and respond to the gospel become a reality.
God choses. I do not believe the amount of sin in a person’s life is a criteria for the choice. That would mean a merit based choosing by God for salvation; those with lesser sin can be chosen, those with greater sin have been disqualified.
Additionally, none of the verses you referenced indicate accumulated sin will eventually render the person permanently unable to respond to the gospel.
Peace to you
The claimed "default" ignores verse after verse.
Calvinists must nullify all these verses that teach loss of the ability to understand, believe and be saved through the practice of sin, because their bogus view claims the Fall resulted in the "Total Spiritual Inability" of all people.
1) Calvinists must deny conditional election, i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
2) Calvinists must deny God hardens hearts Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
OTOH, if God did harden the rest, then their "default" was not total spiritual inability.
3) Did anyone say or suggest the amount of sin (or wrath stored up) is a criteria for election? Nope so another strawman construct.
4) If God credits a person's worthless filthy rag faith as righteousness, it is not a merit based election.
5) No need to make an argument from silence, the verses say the hardening results in the inability to understand, and believe and therefore be saved.
6) According to Calvinism all those verses that teach we are not to harden our hearts are nonsense as our hearts are already hardened. Nullification once again on display
Zachary Uram
New Member
I remember back in the day, when brethren in our church smoked... The sisters use to refer to smoking as a Sinful Habit and men should know better, a bad example to set for the children... Well, like Father, like Son, so I too smoked for a while and then quit... Cold Turkey!... Haven't had a cigarette in over 45 years... But I will never forget, the question I asked my Dad, while all this was going on in the church... Men smoking and the sisters against it... I asked my Dad one day if smoking will send you to Hell?... He said NO Son, but it Will make you smell like you have been there!... Brother Glen
LOL
Not true at all. Men who do not follow Christ are not known by Christ and they do no know Him.
You're so focused on election that you believe that you are elect. Yet scripture never says a Gentile is elect. This is you adding to scripture by attempting to steal election for your self. Only Jews are elect.
A sheep is one who is willing to follow Christ because they are already saved. The other people who do not believe and are not sheep. Yet this does not mean they will never follow Christ After Christ was lifted up on that cross He draws all men to Himself. Jn 12:32
Prove it with scripture. Judas for example was called by name and followed Christ yet he was lost. Christ called him the son of perdition.
Jesus knew His sheep by name before they followed Him. That is what He said.
peace to you[/QUOTE]
So do you claim that Christ called you by name? The only ones I know of called by name are the disciples and apostles
Maybe you hearing voices. Please don't claim God speaks to you
MB
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Jesus said, “you do not believe because you are not of my sheep”
Jesus said His sheep hear His voice, He calls them by name, and they follow Him.
Jesus said He had other sheep, not of this fold (meaning gentiles) and He calls them, they hear His voice, and they follow Him.
Jesus called to me, through the gospel by the power of Holy Spirit, just like everyone else that is saved.
peace to you
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You have being called and drawn as the same thing. Why not read the scriptures and accept what they say instead of trying to make them say something they do not say. I suppose you just want to rewrite it because it doesn't say what you want.
MB
No you don't you interpret it to suit your view
MB