The Saved Backslider

[Particular]

Not if you wilfully go wrong.

The entire passage shows that the writer to the Hebrews did not consider his readers in the light that you are expressing.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, ta great priest over the house of God, sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

If we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. You had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
A great reward. You have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

“Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;

but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back,

my soul has no pleasure in him.”

But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

The idea being expressed is that anyone, after being exposed to the gospel and then turning away from the message, is therefore under the expected judgment of God. The writer is not expressing that a saved and chosen child of God can fall away. The writer is expressing that a person who hears the message and refuses to repent has expectant judgment.

Notice the last sentence in the chapter: "We are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith."

Earlier in Hebrews the writer confirms that the elect will not perish. Therefore, I find your assertion to be false and shown to be false from the passage.

 

[rockytopva]

Americans are different in their generation. I heard a Baptist preacher on the bbnradio.org speak of the evils of the Laodicean age just last week. I believe the churches as seven congregations....

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul. Foxes book of Martyrs has the persecutions as ten.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages.
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first buy a mansion off ministry.

One of the reason that I repeated the OP story at the Easter meal was that there are those who have what I would call a Laodicean cold towards the things of Christ. It is also amazing thing to see family go to church in shorts and sandals knowing their grandparents would attend in suit and proper dress.

 

[Van]

Premise: A born anew believer will not choose to sin.
Problem: Those that enter heaven as one escaping form a fire, did not bear fruit, at least not the kind that allows the person to enter heaven "abundantly."
Corollary: The blood of Jesus does not cover our future sins when saved.
Problem: Justification means when we sin, it is just as if we did not sin. Note Romans 5:9:
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. If we could lose our salvation, then being justified would not necessarily result in being saved from the wrath of God. Scripture cannot be broken.

 

[AustinC]

Americans are different in their generation. I heard a Baptist preacher on the bbnradio.org speak of the evils of the Laodicean age just last week. I believe the churches as seven congregations....

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul. Foxes book of Martyrs has the persecutions as ten.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages.
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first buy a mansion off ministry.

One of the reason that I repeated the OP story at the Easter meal was that there are those who have what I would call a Laodicean cold towards the things of Christ. It is also amazing thing to see family go to church in shorts and sandals knowing their grandparents would attend in suit and proper dress.

There is no "Laodician Age." That poor interpretation comes from an American centric interpretation that views God as a western civilization God who ignores his people in the east.
It is a poor attempt to force history into the book of Revelation.

 

[37818]

Backslider or saved are mutually exclusive, Hebrews 10:39.

 

[rockytopva]

There is no "Laodician Age." That poor interpretation comes from an American centric interpretation that views God as a western civilization God who ignores his people in the east.
It is a poor attempt to force history into the book of Revelation.

I believe the prophecies to the Laodicean church match the times and the seasons, and even have heard Baptist preachers preach on this.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. - Revelation 3

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. - Matthew 24:12-14

I worry most of all of the lack of quality Christian conference and revival, which will result in more abounding iniquity, which will also result in a colder spiritual environment.

 

[AustinC]

I believe the prophecies to the Laodicean church match the times and the seasons, and even have heard Baptist preachers preach on this.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. - Revelation 3

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. - Matthew 24:12-14

I worry most of all of the lack of quality Christian conference and revival, which will result in more abounding iniquity, which will also result in a colder spiritual environment.

I know you believe it and I know many dispensationalist preachers teach it. I also know that there is zero biblical reason to teach it. Nothing in the book of Revelation even hints at such an interpretation.
The age theory is purely an American made theory created in the last 100 years. It is a completely debunked theory. Tell the brothers in Iran, Iraq, China and India that they are Laodicean. I dare you.

 

[rockytopva]

I know you believe it and I know many dispensationalist preachers teach it. I also know that there is zero biblical reason to teach it. Nothing in the book of Revelation even hints at such an interpretation.
The age theory is purely an American made theory created in the last 100 years. It is a completely debunked theory. Tell the brothers in Iran, Iraq, China and India that they are Laodicean. I dare you.

Seven congregations

Messianic - world wide
Martyr - Smyrna church - Especially during the Roman times
Orthodox - Constantinople- pergos is a tower
Catholic - Beginnings with Charlemagne
Protestant - Beginnings with Martin Luther
Revived - Beginnings with John Bunyan
Materialistic- Beginnings with DL Moody, the first to buy a mansion with ministry proceeds

These are Laodicean times, in which candlestick burns the brightest here in America.

 

[AustinC]

Seven congregations

Messianic - world wide
Martyr - Smyrna church - Especially during the Roman times
Orthodox - Constantinople- pergos is a tower
Catholic - Beginnings with Charlemagne
Protestant - Beginnings with Martin Luther
Revived - Beginnings with John Bunyan
Materialistic- Beginnings with DL Moody, the first to buy a mansion with ministry proceeds

These are Laodicean times, in which candlestick burns the brightest here in America.

Again, zero biblical support.
Some preacher in the US artificially slapped his Western civ school notes into the letters in Revelation and convinced ignorant parishioners to believe him.
It reminds me of some author who wrote a book after Sept 11, 2001 claiming a prophesy coming out of the book of Isaiah. The process is take an event, find a verse, take it out of context and then convince people as you pass the offering plate.

The age theory is entirely false.

 

[rockytopva]

Again, zero biblical support.
Some preacher in the US artificially slapped his Western civ school notes into the letters in Revelation and convinced ignorant parishioners to believe him.
It reminds me of some author who wrote a book after Sept 11, 2001 claiming a prophesy coming out of the book of Isaiah. The process is take an event, find a verse, take it out of context and then convince people as you pass the offering plate.

The age theory is entirely false.

I would say the churches were born in the age, and continue to this day. I would also believe that the church age is about ready to come to an end, the books sealed, and the rapture of the church is at hand. I have given it my best presentation.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.- Matthew 24:12

Quality Christian conference and revival helps sanctify the soul, as we don't see much of this anymore, I would look for men's hearts to continue the trek from hot, to lukewarm, to cold.

Revelation... I don't think two people can read history, the book of Revelation, and come to the same conclusions. I do not think hard for people disagreeing with my interpretations either.

 

[AustinC]

I would say the churches were born in the age, and continue to this day. I would also believe that the church age is about ready to come to an end, the books sealed, and the rapture of the church is at hand. I have given it my best presentation.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.- Matthew 24:12

Quality Christian conference and revival helps sanctify the soul, as we don't see much of this anymore, I would look for men's hearts to continue the trek from hot, to lukewarm, to cold.

Revelation... I don't think two people can read history, the book of Revelation, and come to the same conclusions. I do not think hard for people disagreeing with my interpretations either.

You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't make what you say accurate.
Jesus addressed real churches who had real issues. He never said that the issues of a real church were connected to a timeframe in history.
Jesus will return on the Day of the Lord, the day that the last child of God is adopted and celebrated into the Kingdom. He will come no sooner and no later.
Meanwhile we, his children and ambassadors of the Kingdom, live in a foreign land and call everyone to be reconciled with God. Those who are reconciled hear and respond to our message as it is received as good news (gospel). Those who respond to the message as though it were offensive will die in their sins.
The letters to the churches were specific to each church, but we who live today can learn from Jesus letters and be better ambassadors because of them.
Toss out the age theory with the garbage. It is a useless theory.
Look daily for the Day of the Lord and while we look, be an ambassador of the Kingdom.

 

[MB]

I don't think someone with the fruit of the spirit born within him or her is going to willfully sin. As it says earlier in the chapter...

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. - Hebrews 10:15-16

Every sin is willful. The Devil does tempt us yet we are the ones who give in to that temptation. There is no such thing as unwilling sin There is no one who has no sin. This is why Paul said that he died to sin daily. You sir like the rest of us sin willingly every time we sin. We are sinners and have not been ever been with out sin. I once tried to stop sinning and after one day looked back at the day in pride of my self. At that moment realize pride is sin and knew I had failed. I was surprised that I could not deny my pride was willful.
If you are sin free it's not because of your wonderful power over it. It's because of God's grace in granting to us release from the Law. We are no longer under the Law but under grace.
MB

 

[37818]

I believe the prophecies to the Laodicean church match the times and the seasons, and even have heard Baptist preachers preach on this.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. - Revelation 3

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. - Matthew 24:12-14

I worry most of all of the lack of quality Christian conference and revival, which will result in more abounding iniquity, which will also result in a colder spiritual environment.

Nonsense. ". . . I know thy works, . . ." addresses an individual and not that whole church.

 

[BnB]

There was a story told in the long ago about a boy on a horse carriage. While his parents were in the mercantile someone untied the horses and sent them on the run. A hero on a fast horse run the carriage down, got a hold of the reins, and brought the carriage to a stop.

Years later the boy would get in trouble and stand before a judge. When it came time for the judge to make a ruling, asking if the man understood the charges against him the young man interrupted, "Hey! I remember you! Your the man that saved me on the carriage!" In which the judge replied, "In the long ago I appeared unto you your savior, today I appear before to you as your judge.... Guilty as charged!"

If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. - Hebrews 10:26

 

[BnB]

There was a story told in the long ago about a boy on a horse carriage. While his parents were in the mercantile someone untied the horses and sent them on the run. A hero on a fast horse run the carriage down, got a hold of the reins, and brought the carriage to a stop.

Years later the boy would get in trouble and stand before a judge. When it came time for the judge to make a ruling, asking if the man understood the charges against him the young man interrupted, "Hey! I remember you! Your the man that saved me on the carriage!" In which the judge replied, "In the long ago I appeared unto you your savior, today I appear before to you as your judge.... Guilty as charged!"

If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. - Hebrews 10:26

 

[BnB]

To rockytopva:

In response to your story about the boy and the runaway carriage, I offer the following response:

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. [Job 1:1]

 

[canadyjd]

I

Every sin is willful. The Devil does tempt us yet we are the ones who give in to that temptation. There is no such thing as unwilling sin There is no one who has no sin. This is why Paul said that he died to sin daily. You sir like the rest of us sin willingly every time we sin. We are sinners and have not been ever been with out sin. I once tried to stop sinning and after one day looked back at the day in pride of my self. At that moment realize pride is sin and knew I had failed. I was surprised that I could not deny my pride was willful.
If you are sin free it's not because of your wonderful power over it. It's because of God's grace in granting to us release from the Law. We are no longer under the Law but under grace.
MB

I appreciate your comments but will slightly disagree that all sin is willful. It is possible, I think, to sin without understanding you are sinning.

It is the “meat sacrificed to idols” argument. If it is sinful to eat such meat, and you are unaware of its origin when you eat it, have you sinned?

What you are saying, I think, is the sin against conscience.

Suppose it is not sinful to eat such meat, but you believe it is sinful. You know it’s origin, but eat it anyway. You have sinned because you did something you believed to sinful, you have sinned against your conscience.

Thank God Jesus covers all our sin.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. - Hebrews 10:26

Egad, what a gross misapplication of scripture!

“The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.” Charles Hodge

The letter to the Hebrews was addressed to those Jewish Christians who were suffering persecution and being ostracized from the Jewish economy by their Jewish kinsmen. All they would have to do to return to the Jewish fold was to denounce Christianity.

It's not just 'any ol' sin' that's in view here, but a specific sin (returning to apostate Judaism) of which a specific people (professing Jewish Christians), of a specific time (the very generation that judged Christ to be worthy of death) were under pressure to do:

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6

By 'turning back in their hearts to Egypt', they were in essence agreeing that that generation of Jews were correct in their judgement of Christ, thereby 'crucifying the Son of God afresh'.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10

Again, this is not just 'any ol' sin', but was a falling away back to apostate Judaism, which if they did there remained only the judgements, soon to come upon that generation, that they were originally told to save themselves from:

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18

 

[kyredneck]

The Saved Backslider

Solomon, I think, would fit that definition.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I don't think someone with the fruit of the spirit born within him or her is going to willfully sin. As it says earlier in the chapter...

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. - Hebrews 10:15-16

That specifically refers to Israel .