The SBC and Calvinism

[glfredrick]

It is you who does not know your history. You need to study Augustine for one. A couple of books that would enlighten your history are:

The Doctrines That Divide ~Erwin Lutzer

Across the Spectrum! Gregory A. Boyd / Paul R. Reddy

Whosoever Will ~ Several Authors ie David Allen/Jerry Vines/Steve Lemke/Paige Patterson/Richard Land

I don't suppose it would help for you to know that I know a few of those authors personally, huh?

 

[mandym]

I don't suppose it would help for you to know that I know a few of those authors personally, huh?

I do as well

 

[glfredrick]

I have already posted evidence in different places; no need to post further evidence.

I'd be willing to bet that I have read much more historical theology than you.

Calvinism was unknown in the early church. That's a fact that no amount of twisting can change, Mr. Checker.

That is not because it did not exist... That is because the TERM was not invented until some time after the time of John Calvin in the Reformation Period.

Sheesh...

Also, don't take your own bet. You have no idea.

 

[mandym]

That is not because it did not exist... That is because the TERM was not invented until some time after the time of John Calvin in the Reformation Period.

Sheesh...

Also, don't take your own bet. You have no idea.

I am still waiting for his evidence.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That is not because it did not exist... That is because the TERM was not invented until some time after the time of John Calvin in the Reformation Period.

Sheesh...

Neither the term nor the concept was invented until Calvin.

Also, don't take your own bet. You have no idea.

Neither do you.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I am still waiting for his evidence.

I am tempted to make you work for it by searching for it.

(Hmmm.... should I or shouldn't I? Should I do all the work for him?)

 

[mandym]

I am tempted to make you work for it by searching for it.

(Hmmm.... should I or shouldn't I? Should I do all the work for him?)

Look, when you make a claim it is customary in many settings to provide the evidence with your claim so that you make a reasonable point and so that you have some credibility. At this point you just not believable. Your behavior on this issue has been rather trollish rather than a reasoned argument. Help yourself by backing up your claims.

 

[Greektim]

I have already posted evidence in different places; no need to post further evidence.

I'd be willing to bet that I have read much more historical theology than you.

Calvinism was unknown in the early church. That's a fact that no amount of twisting can change, Mr. Checker.

Have you never read Augustine??? I'd say that the concept of calvinistic monergism goes back that far at least.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Look, when you make a claim it is customary in many settings to provide the evidence with your claim so that you make a reasonable point and so that you have some credibility. At this point you just not believable. Your behavior on this issue has been rather trollish rather than a reasoned argument. Help yourself by backing up your claims.

And since you are using that tone and accusatory remarks, you should go to the thread on Penal Substitution and look up the links I posted.

I was accused of the same thing there -- until I posted the links, and then the accusers grew strangely quiet.

 

[Skandelon]

Have you never read Augustine??? I'd say that the concept of calvinistic monergism goes back that far at least.

Yes.

Augustine is the first records we have of the common mistakes of:
1. Overly individualizing the concept of divine election...
2. Interpreting predestination as being for particular individuals unto salvation; rather than for all those in Christ to be adopted and conformed.
3. Assuming the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing the Gospel to save the lost as being insufficient.

And

Since He didn't know actual Greek we can understand how he might make these types of mistakes.

 

[mandym]

And since you are using that tone and accusatory remarks, you should go to the thread on Penal Substitution and look up the links I posted.

I was accused of the same thing there -- until I posted the links, and then the accusers grew strangely quiet.

Is this the post you are referring to?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1803710&postcount=133

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Have you never read Augustine??? I'd say that the concept of calvinistic monergism goes back that far at least.

Yes, yes, I've read him. You are not correct. Here is a text about the church fathers and penal substitution which shows the facts about Augustine's position; scroll down for the part on Augustine:

http://therebelgod.com/AtonementFathersEQ.pdf

I wasn't going to post this again, here, but I'm doing it for you.

 

[Jerome]

the TERM [Calvinism] was not invented until some time after the time of John Calvin

Actually his devotees used the TERM during his lifetime.

 

[mandym]

http://therebelgod.com/AtonementFathersEQ.pdf

From the article pg 3:

Without question, both the New Testament and the church fathers teach substitutionary atonement – the idea that Christ took on our suffering and sin and bore it ‘for us’. We equally can find penal elements in their understanding of sin, so that one can say that Christ, in bearing our sin, is also bearing punishment in a certain sense. The question is: how do these themes fit into the church fathers’ larger understanding of how salvation and the atonement function?
It is not enough to simply identify substitutionary or even penal themes in the
writings of the church fathers, and assume that this is an endorsement of the
Reformed understanding of penal substitution.

Best I can tell the author is trying to make a distinction, very poorly, where there is none. Anyone else have some insight on this?

 

[Tom Butler]

I appreciate the 1925 BF&M:

VI. The Freeness of Salvation

The blessings of salvation are made free to all by the gospel. It is the duty of all to accept them by penitent and obedient faith. Nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner except his own voluntary refusal to accept Jesus Christ as teacher, Saviour, and Lord.

Most Calvinists I know agree.

Further than that, I don't know of a Calvinist that would disagree.

 

[Iconoclast]

How much has Calvinism infiltrated the SBC? I haven't been a regular attender at an SBC church for a long time, just an occasional visitor. But I'm thinking of returning on a regular basis. I still have membership in a SBC church, although I am also a member of the CBF, which only requires a $1 per year contribution from an individual to be a member!

Anyway, this veil of tears is gloomy enough without having that added to by a Calvinist assault every Sunday.

watch out, watch out....they are everywhere:thumbs: be careful....i heard they use the bible and speak about all those verses you do not like.

 

[quantumfaith]

Here's a Quick Run-Down for you from information I have heard the last few years (all unofficial, of Course). Hope it is helpful.

1. Seminaries:
-Southern Seminary (SBTS) puts out the most Calvinists Pastors, led by Al Mohler, a Calvinist. (interstingly, None of the DEANS at sbts would identify themselves as calvinists, though many other of the professors would.
-Southeastern may be second, as Danny Akin is probalby a 3-4 pointer, and has no problem with calvinists.
-Southwestern (texas) is strongly against calvinism, led by Paige Patterson.
-Midwestern, New Orleans, Golden Gate...I haven't heard anything...they don't make the news.

2. Pastors (quoted from Baptist Press):



3. Churches: I would say the vast majority have members of all stripes on this issue, though majority Non-cal, I'm sure. Though I'm also sure it is Geographic to some extent surrounding the Seminaries. For example I live about an hour from Louisville (SBTS), and I know many of the Louisville churches are calvinistic, and many of the churches in our vicinity are pastored by calvinistic Men. I'm sure if you went to SBC churches around Southwestern you would find the opposite trend.

(Disclaimer of possible bias: I am a recent SBTS Grad, Current Music & Youth Pastor at an SBC Church one hour from Louisville (for 5 years), mostly calvinistic in soteriology. My church has 3 other pastors, all calvinists, though we may argue about limited atonement. Our church has members on all sides of this issue, most are not calvinists...But I think most know that we are, and sometimes joke about it to us. We have had some lively Sunday school discussion about the issues...and we still all love each other. And we have one guy who seems to agree with Unconditional Election, but disagree with eternal security...so I don't know what he is...He might just be a Christian :thumbs

Nice Post.

"My church", that is where I and my wife worship, is non-denominational. We are a part of Northpoint Ministries (Andy Stanley) such issues, thankfully, are not "problems" or even discussions. We baptize new believers OFTEN. I know, membership in our church comes from all strands of the theological spectrum. What we do works for us, and I would argue that we are making a meaningful impact in our community for Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinists in SBC .....Oh My, what a big supprise. Thought we eradicated them al l in '79..... peskey devils aren't they. :laugh:

 

[mandym]

Calvinists in SBC .....Oh My, what a big supprise. Thought we eradicated them al l in '79..... peskey devils aren't they. :laugh:

In 79 ?...

 

[Luke2427]

First, you should know that many, if not most, of the founders of the SBC were "Reformed" theologically. So, instead of the word 'infiltrated' you may use the word 'resurgence.'

Second, I don't think Calvinists are 'assaulting' anyone. Most are well meaning, loving, evangelistic, intelligent believers. Mislead, IMO, but not evil and assaulting.

Third, you have the freedom in our country to pick a church and a denomination which best reflects your own views on the subject, so rejoice in that.

Fourth, regarding the stats, I'm not sure they really tell you much because it is all in how you ask the question. If a question is asked just right my answers would make me sound like a 5-pointer, which we all know is not true. And the reverse is true as well. If you ask just the right questions Al Mohler would sound like John Wesley.

Thank you Skandelon.

I could not agree more.

I think it takes a good man to say these things when he occupies the opposite position from the one of which he speaks.