The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

[Ed Edwards]

Ed asked:
"Show me from the Bible where you find "Jews" in Acts 7:51-60. In fact,
God is speaking to the real killers of Jesus:
you and I."

Which apparently confused some. I clarify:

Show me in the context of Acts 7:51
that Jews and Jews only are whom Stephen is speaking of.
Note that we have these printed words and that they
speak to BILLIONS of lost folk and not just to
the Jews present to hear Stephen's words.

God is speaking through Stephen to the real
killers of Jesus: you and I.

OldRegular: "How do you read the Bible, in bits and pieces?"

One word at a time. However, i can reach speeds of 1,000 words
per minute (but not keep that up for very many minutes).
How do you read the Bible? I'd like to hear the part which
helps you come to the conclusion that you can demean me every chance
you get, every time you feel like you are loosing this debate.

OldRegular: "This passage is not talking about those who killed Jesus Christ
it is talking about those who killed Stephen. "

I belabor the obvious. In the verse in question, Acts 7:51,
Stephen is talking those who killed Jesus Christ.
This is clear and obvious.
So, who is God talking to through Stephen about killing Jesus?
1. the Billions of lost people (including both unsaved
and saved lost people) who will read the words?
2. those couple of dozen Jews present to hear Stephen's voice?

This is a rhetorical question. The answer is #1. God through
Steven is speaking to you and I. In fact, this is one of the proof
texts for the fact we grafted-in-gentiles need to be thankful to
God for our salvation and appreciative to our national Jewish Israeli
living persons. If you can't love your living national Jewish Israeli
then you cannot love God.

Joseph Botwinick: "What was the majority opinion of most
Southerners about the integration
of Central High School. Surely they must have been right.//

I search "Central High School" in Google and find 1.7 million hits.
Perchance you, being from Arkansas refer to the one in Little Rock.
In 1958 Blacks were integrated into the white school at the end
of a U.S.Federal Government gun. Where were you in 1958?
I was in the 9th grade in Holdenville, Oklahoma - an integrated school.
We integrated peacefully. I still hug some of my black friends
at school reunions. This was pretty good sport for me because when
i was in the 7th grade i lived in McLean, Texas (Not McAllen), a place
which had no black people around. So there was a bit of culture shock
when i moved to Holdenville and it's 15% black population and 15%
Native American population.

Anyway, you wasted your time asking your question. I did not introduce
my data to 'prove' anything. I don't need to 'prove' anything here, even
though it is a 'debate'. I'll let the Holy Spirit convict those who need
convicting. And it looks like the Holy Spirit has a lot of convicting to
do of people who still don't realise that THEY KILLED JESUS, their sin
nailed Jesus on that Cross (in the spiritual world, in the physical
world it was some Roman soldiers who did it).


Anyway, my data was to help people see the eschatological mood on
the Baptist board. 70% of the BB members believe the RAPTURE to have
a physical literal reality. Please don't try to insult the majority
of BB's people - not their intelligence. They don't let too much get
by them. They don't respond to folks who repeat the same scripture
going on four times now YET DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE VERY SCRIPTURE
THEY POST.

Me4Him: //The "COMFORTER" is the "defender" of "Christians", but "HE" is taken out
before the AC is revealed. (rapture)//

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!
It is right there in the 2ed chapter of 2 Thessalonians.
I like to call that 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 the Pretrib Chapter

Me4Him: //In the same way you can't build a doctrine on "ONE VERSE", neither
can you just look at "one coming" of Jesus and understand the scriptures.//

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!
You have to fit all the verses together.
I've seen a secular puzzle with like 7 pieces.
It makes a 6-piece square and a 7-piece square.
If you build the 6-piece square, you have a piece left over.
If you build the 7-piece square, you have no piece left over.
Constructing Biblical doctrine.

Another good rule of studying the Bible is: if you have a hard time understanding
that seemingly stray passage -- live hard by the passages you do understand.
I've Had a 12-year struggle with the verse in the last of 1 Thess chapter 5
that says: "Pray all the time". I have a secular job that requires i use
my mind. My mind is busy 8-10 hours a day with that job.
How can i 'pray all the time'? But i figured it out, with God's help.
But that is another story for another time.

I look at the first coming of Jesus, our beloved Lord and Savior, the Messiah,
and i see that He came to earth at least twice.

1. As a babe in the manger
2. returning from hell as victor over it to the Resurrection of the body.

The FIRST COMING is dual, just as the SECOND COMING is dual.

But I guess some blind folk will never see that they limit God's
power when they limit Jesus to one-and-only-one 'first' and to
one-and-only-one 'second'.

Me4Him: //Daniel prophesied 70 weeks on "THY PEOPLE", that is "JEWS",
the church had no part in the first 69 weeks and neither does
it have a part in the last week. (trib)//

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

God has blessed you highly so you can say profound Biblical truths in
one chart or a well-worded sentence. By contrast i tend to put in lots of
words hoping someone might find something that will
give the Hope of the pretribulation rapture to cut their daily stress.

Me4Him: //As I’ve shown, the six things promised to be finished at the end
of Daniel’s seventy weeks have already been spiritually fulfilled
for the church, only the literal fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy
remains unfulfilled,

//this will occur at the end of the tribulations period.//

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

OldRegular: //I can't find your answer among all the "mysteries"
you have posted
above so I will ask the 4th time and perhaps you will be gracious
enough to provde a direct answer.//

I note you blame your flaws on my post - a post which is 80%
scripture - very revealing.

Alright, i'll search through the last few pages and find
my answer to your question.

Here are some parts of my answer:

Ed:

But the Partial Preterist must say that God has abandoned His first
wife, Yisrael, cause they limit God to be like humans who should only
have one wife. Serious stuff, Limiting God to man's standards.

OldRegular: "Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 13:14, 15

14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing
ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see
and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are
dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and should understand with their heart, and should be converted,
and I should heal them."

Ed:

Maybe it is just me, but it seems the preacher is preaching
at you and not any national Jewish Israeli.

[.note that my name "of South Carolina" refers to OldRegular, for
i use that in the same manner (title versus name) that some people
confuse Christ (offensive to Jews title) and Jesus (the blessed name
of our LOrd and Savior: Messiah Jesus).]

Of South Carolina: //The Aposyle Paul also tells us in Acts 28:25-27

25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after
that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias
the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear,
and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears
are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they
should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand
with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them//

Ed:

Maybe it is just me, but it

Jesus, the Messiah of God, died for your sins Brother 'of South Carolina'.
How do i know? Cause Jesus died for the sins of all and you,
'of South Carolina', are part of all; therefore Jesus died for your sins.
Who nailed Jesus to the cross spiritually? 'of South Carolina' nailed
Jesus to the cross, spiritually speaking.
Therefore 'of South Carolina' has no right whatsoever to dis no
national Jewish Israeis.

Jesus died for the sins of all. National Jewish Israei are part of
all; therefor Jesus died for the sins of Natinal Jewish Israeli folk.

Then after answering your question thus i posted a description of
the MYSTERIES OF THE FAITH i'd ritten in answer to questions similiar
to your i'd received in the past.

Try reading it and figure out what God's message is for you in his word.

Especially note the mystery that I call #2:

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.

Especially and personally note the use of 'ignorant'.
I am restricted by the PTB = powers that be, from telling you
that this term applies in this verse to you. So i won't disappoint
them by telling you. Some of these powers think that 'ignorant'
is poor form to call another BB member. Quite frankly
'ignorant' means no knowing. And there is all stuff we don't know
and are therefore ignorant of.

Especially and personally note the use of 'wise in you own opinion'.
God said it, but you have to apply it to yourself to get God's message
for you. If you don't apply it to yourself then you will not get
God's message for you that he sent me to tell you. Pretty irksome, eh
to have and ED deliver God's message to you. Recall it was written
down in the Bible long before you and i were born. NEvertheless
it is your message for you and is the answer to your quesition, doubtless
the answer you DID NOT WANT.

Say, if God wants you to hate racial Jewish Israeli, where does He say
for you to do it?

I know God has cursed certain things, but i don't know of a verse one
where God ever asked us to help Him curse any human being.

OldRegular: "The word hour first appears in the Book of Daniel."

That is true. I don't kown it. Thank you for helping me find
another (if minor) of God's truth. It seems that the only use of 'hour'
in the OT is in Daniel.

OldRegular: "I do know that in the Book of Genesis God determined
the length of the day, one rotation of the earth, whatever
units of time are used."

Actually your statement is misleading. It was at least 5,500 years
after the creation before your statement could be formulated.
'One rotation of the earth' was not THINKABLE until discovered by
humans about 1500AD.

 

[Me4Him]

"ED"

I'm going to post my charts again, but this time they'll have "text" explaining each,

I'm "condensing" the text to keep them short as possible, but yet complete enough to comprehend.

So far, I've only got 4 of a total of 8 finished.

What's the best forum for posting them???

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'd say start a new Topic in the following Forum:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/forum/28.html

The new topic should be called:
God's Plan for the Ages

Yep, that name should be useful for all your Charts
not to mention RIGHT ON to the Scriptures!!

The folks there will be more varied than
if we just "round
up the usual suspects"

 

[OldRegular]

Ed, Ed you say

I try not to use 'Christ' and "Christian' if i can in case a Jew is around. Offending Jews is NOT CONDUSIVE TO SPIRITUAL HEALTH.

Stephen said of the Jews [edited for personal attack]:

Acts 7:51-60
51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53. Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.
59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Ed, For the fifth time I ask you a simple question: Stephen, a Christian, spoke ill against the Jews who delivered Jesus Christ to the Roman Cross. Did God take the life of Stephen because he spoke ill of the Jews, or was he killed by an evil people who were stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears and who always resist the Holy Ghost? I ask this question because you made what I consider an asinine statement but which you as a dispensationalist apparently think is rational. The statement repeated was

I try not to use 'Christ' and "Christian' if i can in case a Jew is around. Offending Jews is NOT CONDUSIVE TO SPIRITUAL HEALTH.

Ed you are either totally ignorant of Scripture or you are deliberately being disingenous when you state that Stephen was not speaking to the Jews alone in the sermon that led to his death. He was killed by a mob led by the pharisee Saul, later to become the Apostle Paul. Just answer the question above. You claim to be a dispensationalist then be a dispensationalist and don't dance around playing word games in long nonsensical posts.

[ September 16, 2005, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I'd say start a new Topic in the following Forum:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/forum/28.html

The new topic should be called:
God's Plan for the Ages

Yep, that name should be useful for all your Charts
not to mention RIGHT ON to the Scriptures!!

The folks there will be more varied than
if we just "round
up the usual suspects"

It's started, but I'll have to finish tomorrow.

Thanks.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him!

I found your thread at:
God's Plan For The Ages

I'll be making further comments there.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed said: //I try not to use 'Christ' and "Christian' if i can
in case a Jew is around. Offending Jews is NOT CONDUSIVE TO SPIRITUAL HEALTH.

OldRegular: //Ed you are either totally ignorant of Scripture or you
are deliberately being disingenous when you state that Stephen
was not speaking to the Jews alone in the sermon that led to his death.

Again, a false dichotomy.

Here is my supporting Scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2:15-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
Therefore, brethren, stand fast,
and hold the traditions which yee haue beene taught,
whether by word or our Epistle.
16 Now our Lorde Iesus Christ himselfe, and God euen our Father,
which hath loued vs, and hath giuen vs euerlasting consolation,
and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in euery good word and worke.

In fact, i looked in no book other than God's Holy Written Word to 'figure out'
what Stephen was speaking about in Acts 7:51-60. These principles and understanings
have become part of my person. I don't need to go copy the research of others
(such as is done in the opening post (OP) in this topic) - I've done my own
homework.

Here is John Darby's Commentary on this matter

Act 7:1-60 -
Stephen, [11] as far as we are told, had not known the Lord
during His life on earth. Certainly he was not appointed,
like the apostles, to be a witness of that life. He was simply
the instrument of the Holy Ghost, distributing to whom He would.

So i hardly think I 'picked up' on Darbyism

Stephen was not just speaking to the couple of dozen
Jews alone in the sermon that led to his death
but to the Billions of people whom God would have come to the
repentance leading to salvation in Messiah Jesus.
The very fact that his final sermon is recorded in the Holy Bible
indicates that the audience is more than those there.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Stephen was not just speaking to the couple of dozen
Jews alone in the sermon that led to his death
but to the Billions of people whom God would have come to the
repentance leading to salvation in Messiah Jesus.
The very fact that his final sermon is recorded in the Holy Bible
indicates that the audience is more than those there.

You dispensationalists strut around like a banty rooster bragging that you "interpret Scripture literally" or "take it at face value". In Stephen's sermon to the Jews, who were responsoble for delivering Jesus Christ to Rome to be crucified, he is speaking specifically to Jews. That this is true is born out by the entire text of the sermon [He presents a brief history of Israel, beginning with the call of Abraham.] but in particular the verses 7:51-53, the passage that infuriated the Jews so much they murdered him.

Acts 7:51-53
51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53. Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Now the Gentiles had not been taught by the Holy Spirit, Israel and the Jews were; Prophets were not sent to the Gentiles but to the Jews or Israel; The Gentiles did not receive the Law, Israel did. The passage and Stephen's complete sermon was to the Jews.

Yet Ed who takes great pride in his faithfulness to dispensational error wants to spiritualize this sermon, all the while bragging that dispensationalists interpret the Bible literally and anyone who doesn't is that dreaded "L" word, liberal.

ED you made a foolish statement earlier on this thread and are twisting Scripture in an attempt to justify it or cover it up.

I try not to use 'Christ' and "Christian' if i can in case a Jew is around. Offending Jews is NOT CONDUSIVE TO SPIRITUAL HEALTH.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I try not to use 'Christ' and "Christian'
if i can in case a Jew is around. Offending Jews is
NOT CONDUSIVE TO SPIRITUAL HEALTH.

</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for your compliment Brother OldRegular.

You are so
impressed by this saying of mine that you have
repeated it some eight times. This statement
of mine is a sidelight and not the main
thrust of this Topic: "The Second Coming of
Our Lord Messiah Jesus" The secondary nature
of my statement shows even more how impressed
you were as shown by your continual repetition
by my statement.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by rjprince:
I used to say that Dan 9 was the key to premillenialism. Now I say that Gen 15 is the key. Wish I had more time...

DeafPost,

The theocratic kingdom for Israel is for 1000 years and then moves into eternity with a New Heaven and New Earth. The post/amil position denies the literalness of a lot more than the 1000 years!

RJ Prince,
I want to say I think you make a very good and important point from Gen. 15.

bro. Dallas

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Genesis chapter 15 and Daniel chapter 9 both say nothing about 'a thousand years'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I have heard of historic premilennialism but never seen anything on it. Here is something posted to another email list I am a member of:

Tell me if this sounds correct in regards to Historic Pre-mil position:


Bro. Dallas Eaton

HISTORICAL PREMILLENNIALISM by Orval Heath
Historical or classical premillennialism, originally called chilism,
is the oldest and mildest form
of premillennialism. It seems that history was fairly silent on
eschatology until the latter part of the
fourth century. According to, A Concise History of Baptists, by G. H.
Orchard a group of Christians
among the churches in Italy, held a view of eschatology called chilism
which later became known as
historical premillennialism. This view has several distinctive
characteristics in addition to the general
beliefs of premillennialism. A list of those are as follows:
1. The historical premillennialist used the futuristic method of
interpretation, yet, it was
different from the modern dispensational belief.
2. This view does not emphasize an imminent return of Christ. It holds
instead that a number
of events must happen before Christ returns. These events include the
worldwide proclamation of
a distinct antichrist different from all other antichrists and a Great
Tribulation period.
3. It holds that there is only one return of Christ, and that coming
will be after the Great
Tribulation and not before it. This coming is visible and will be
accompanied by the resurrection and
rapture after which the believers will almost immediately escort
Christ back to earth.
4. This view sees Israel saved and restored, not as a separate people
from the gentiles, but
as one people of God which is the body of Christ. It does not place
any emphasis upon God having
a separate purpose for physical Israel and the church. The gospel that
the Jews are to preach during
the tribulation is the gospel of grace, not a separate gospel of the
kingdom. That the church has
replaced national Israel as God's elect.
5. This view believes that the church will be on earth during the
tribulation period.
6. This view holds to a less physical approach to eschatology than
modern premillennialist.
They seem to be unsure of the length of the tribulation period, as
well as the length of the millennium,
and fulfilled Old Testament prophecy during the millennium.
It must be kept in mind that there are several variations within
historical premillennialist views.
Some hold that the millennial kingdom is primarily Jewish, but some
allow Gentile believers to be
there in a subordinate place. Others hold that it is only for martyrs,
Jewish or Gentile, who will
occupy the primary place. Some hold that during the millennium all
those with physical bodies will
be subject to death; other say only unbelievers will be subject to death.
Those that hold the historical view are either vague or silent
concerning the relationship of
those with spiritual bodies living in the presence of those with
physical bodies. They are also vague
on the subject of the restored temple, and the animal sacrifices. The
historic premillennialists are
more like amillennialists than they are the modern premillennialists.

 

[OldRegular]

Frogman

My understanding of Historic or Covenant Premillennialism is much like that you describe above. The description is very brief.

Historic or Covenant premillennialism is, along with amillennialism, one of the oldest theologies of the events associated with the Second-Coming. In fact, people who hold this view will insist that it was the view of the early Church and predated amillennialism by several hundred years. [Some claim that Augustine {354-430 AD} was the first writer to present the amillennial view.] There is much in common between the covenant premillennial and amillennial viewpoints.

The major difference is the covenant premillennial belief in a separate resurrection of the believers followed by a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth with His Saints. This millennial kingdom, however, is a kingdom in which the Church, not the restored Jewish nation, rules with the glorified Saviour. Covenant premillennialists, like many amillennialists and postmillennialists, believe in a large scale conversion of the Jews prior to the Second-Coming. Covenant premillennialists also believe that prior to the return of Jesus Christ there will be a period of increased tribulation on the earth. and that the Church is present during this period. To bring this tribulation to an end Jesus Christ returns with the souls of the deceased Saints at which time the first resurrection would occur.

Upon His coming the Lord Jesus Christ will destroy the antichrist, bind and cast Satan into the bottomless pit, and establish the millennial kingdom, ruling with His Church. During this period people will be born and die, some saved and some not. At the end of the millennium Satan will be released for his “little season” and will suffer final defeat. At this time the resurrection of the all unbelievers and those believers who died during the millennium will occur followed by the Great White Throne judgment. Satan and his followers will then be cast into the lake of fire and the new heavens and new earth will be created [2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 21:1].

Two books that discuss the 4 major doctrines of the End Time Events are:

The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Robert Clouse includes a discussion of the four major millennial views by proponents of each with responses by the remaining writers. The contributors are Anthony A. Hoekema [amillennial], George E. Ladd [covenant premillennial], Herman Hoyt [dispensational], and Loraine Boettner [postmillennial]. This is an excellent, though brief, book for anyone interested in expanding his understanding of eschatology.

The Bible and the Future is an excellent book on eschatology written by Anthony A. Hoekema, a former professor of Systematic Theology at Calvin Theological Seminary. Hoekema who discusses a very difficult subject from a nonsensational perspective, is particularly attentive to the Biblical teaching of the “new heaven and new earth”. Hoekema writes as a covenant theologian from an amillennial perspective but also critiques other views. Hoekema expands the discussion of eschatology by insisting [page 1] that “the message of Biblical eschatology will be seriously impoverished if we do not include the present state of the believer and the present phase of the Kingdom of God”.

 

[OldRegular]

I posted this earlier but it seems to be appropriate to post it again:

It is important to note that the implications of a general resurrection and judgment are not trivial in today’s theological climate.

A general resurrection and judgment means that there is no secret rapture of the church prior to any period of great tribulation, and no millennial reign. The Church will remain on earth until they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [Matthew 24:30, KJV] and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen [Revelation 1:7, KJV]. Whatever tribulation comes before that time the Church will endure just as Jesus Christ taught and just as the history of the Church bears witness. In fact Scripture teaches repeatedly that tribulation is the norm of life for the Saints, the true believers.

John F. Walvoord, the preeminent dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]. Before presenting Walvoord’s remarks concerning this question it is worthwhile to consider the definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000.

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

“If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured before end-time events? it becomes very important to define the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or saints in general. In prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot."

We see that, according to Walvoord, the Southern Baptist Faith and Message is contrary to a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Case history of ignoring Jews & having Christian doctrinal errors.

Bishop James Ussher (1581-1656) was the one who had
most of the dates put into Bibles including the creation
day in BC4004. Unfortuntately England prohibited
Jews from being on thier islands UNDER PENTALTY OF DEATH
from 1290 to 1656. So had England not been so strict
on Jews, he could have found out that Adam was created
in BC3761. Here in early Sept AD2005 we are in the
Jewish year 5846. Before the End of our Sept, the Jewish
new year will bring in 5847.

So any 7-day/millinnium theory must include the real
year of God's creation BC3761 which was 5,847 years ago.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Walvoord: //n prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot.//

I have no way of verifying that Dr. Walvoord really said this.
However, if he did, he is in error. In fact the current Church (universal chruch) is
composed in the Gentile Age of mostly gentiles but some Messanic Jews. All the
gentile age church will be raptured/resurrected out of the world prior to the start
of the Tribulation Period at the Pretribulaion Rapture/resurrection.

OldRegular: "We see that, according to Walvoord, the Southern Baptist Faith
and Message is contrary to a pre-trib rapture."

Neither the 2000 nor the 1963 versions of this document preclude pretrib
or post-trib scenarios. In fact i understand in 1963 that the majority
position at SouthWestern Seminary in Fort WOrth, Tx was a-mill and post-trib.
My church has accepted the 1963 Southern Baptist Faith and Message (but not
the 2000). I'd not be a member if it precluded my pre-mill and pretrib position.

If indeed Bro. Walvoord teaches what OldRegular says, then Walvoord is in error.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Case history of ignoring Jews & having Christian doctrinal errors.

Bishop James Ussher (1581-1656) was the one who had
most of the dates put into Bibles including the creation
day in BC4004. Unfortuntately England prohibited
Jews from being on thier islands UNDER PENTALTY OF DEATH
from 1290 to 1656. So had England not been so strict
on Jews, he could have found out that Adam was created
in BC3761. Here in early Sept AD2005 we are in the
Jewish year 5846. Before the End of our Sept, the Jewish
new year will bring in 5847.

So any 7-day/millinnium theory must include the real
year of God's creation BC3761 which was 5,847 years ago.

Dear Brother Ed,
I admit I understand very little of this topic and as I read more historical confessions there are very few evidences of either pre-mil and especially pre-trib belief among Old Baptists or other Baptistic groups.

I also admit I don't understand the post you made and I have quoted above, would you elaborate upon it a little?

May God Bless,
bro. Dallas

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
n fact Scripture teaches repeatedly that tribulation is the norm of life for the Saints, the true believers.

Normal everyday "tribulations, YES, but not "GREAT TRIBULATION", a time such as never been before or ever will be again.

"SEE" the difference???

John F. Walvoord, the preeminent dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church

Wrong, he doesn't understand "WHY" the tribulation occurs, Israel's chastisement for rejecting Jesus has nothing to do with the church.

Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured before end-time events? it becomes very important to define the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or saints in general.

TRUE, but "WHY" is it distinct, it hasn't rejected Jesus, the church is "saints", Israel is still an "enemies of the gospel", they won't become "saints" until the Trib.

In prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot."[/b]

We see that, according to Walvoord, the Southern Baptist Faith and Message is contrary to a pre-trib rapture.

Obviously, he doesn't understand the reason for the tribulations, it isn't just wrath, but also chastisement.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Me4Him:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
We see that, according to Walvoord, the Southern Baptist Faith and Message is contrary to a pre-trib rapture.

Obviously, he doesn't understand the reason for the tribulations, it isn't just wrath, but also chastisement. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

Here are some questions asked me by an
anti-pretrib person on another venue.
My answers are also included.

-------------------------------------
1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
how many ages are there?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.

2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

Yes.

3) Does/Has God changed?

Nope.

4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?

Nope.

5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
time as the believers?

No. "Raptured" means to get a glorified body without
dying. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a body.

6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?

A group of Messanic Jews from the church age
raptured at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
selected for special service on the earth
during the Tribulation period.

7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?

The Bible does not say it.
Millionare novel writers say it

8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.

9) Are there different classes of the saved?

No. But count me among the haired saved
(as opposed to the bald saved).

A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?

No.

B) Is works necessary for salvation?

Yes, the works of Jesus are necessary.
No, the saved individual is saved by the works of Jesus,
not by their own works.

C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
the tribulation?

No, for gentiles.
Yes, for Jewish Israeli.

D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
during the tribulation?

Yes, for gentiles.
No, for Jewish Israeli.

E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
then how can anyone be saved?

Unanswerable question based on a faulty premesis.
The Holy Spirit will be on earth during
the Tribulation period.

F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?

Yes.

10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
the Jews or the Church?

Yes.

11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
end of the tribulation only once?

None. The whole idea of any eschatological teaching
should be to encourage holy living NOW.

12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?

No. Only your personal relation to the Savior: Messiah Jesus.

13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?

Nope. I'm an ALL or NONE pretribulation rapturist.

14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
is not on the earth?

Yes, the gentile church-age church is not found.
The Jewish Israeli chruch is found after the
mid=trib crises

15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
their salvation?

If your premesis is true, it did not affect their
salvation.

16) Which is superior, the English translations,
or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?

The translations written in the language
that i understand: 20th century English.
The nKJV is the best, but NIV, NASB, NLT
contain the written word of God: the Holy Bible.

17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
post-mil, or a-mil?

pre-mil

18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
considered the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
saved outside of the blood of Christ?

No.

1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they were from
the beginning of the creation.)

They don't see God's mercy toward them.

1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?

Yes. Trusting Jesus is a higher calling than
one's x-trib position. The same actions i call for
to be Rapture Ready in the church age are the actions needed for
a postribulation rapture.

1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?

They will probably be disapointed in me that i
didn't see that God had blessed them with the
gift of martyrdom.

1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?

No. But i have a concordance.
Want me to look it up?

20) You said you've been studying the Word for 50 years.
Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
or did you first discover it in the writings
of Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin, et.al.?

None of the above.
The minister at the church where i was saved
taught a pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
I was 8-years-old. I believed what he said.
After that i read the Bible. Never did find
anthing in the Bible contradicting the Pretribulation
Rapture.

Nice questions, Brother /user name suppresed/.
And your answers are?
Note that i will probably not respond to your answers
unless i feel i will have something of encouragement
to add an ongoing discussion.
-------------------------------------