The Sharp Divide: How to deal with it

[HeirofSalvation]

You really shouldn't drink and post.

That isn't cute.........

I had a very serious drinking problem.

God has graciously been delivering me from it. I am praising God for what he is doing for me.

How DARE you........

Your post, may have been designed to be "cutesy".....but, it was sick.....

That is sick.

I have been working through JUST THAT problem:

Do you think it constructive to talk like that??

No, Herald, I think you made a mis-step here. That is personal to the 'n'th to me...........and it isn't a joke.

I hold to what I hold to...........and my thoughts are thought-through and relatively erudite.....

What you just said, was sheer trash. Trash. that was Nasty, it hurt, and it is all the more proof that Arminians should want NOTHING to do with Calvinists....Please take all our institutions, Our Seminaries, and please, just walk away, and take Calvinist talk like that with you, and never speak like you have just spoken again.......That has been my position from post #1.

 

[Herald]

HoS,

The Internet being what it is, it's almost impossible to know what personal issues others have. Your problem with alcohol is a very real problem for many. I pray that God's grace continues to be yours in fighting such an issue. I genuinely apologize for my sarcasm in that area. That said, you really can't seem to carry on a civil discussion. You display a great deal of immaturity. For my part I need to avoid such discussions as they are not Christ-like. Thankfully the BaptistBroad provides the administrative options necessary to avoid such discussions. I am going to avail myself of them right now.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Somehow......Herald, I think you are slightly ticked with how quickly it seems that Arminians are willing to peaceably part-ways with Calvinists.....

What did you think???

Did you think we were desperate to INCLUDE YOU in our Churches????

No......
You may go away at your own pleasure.......Arminians will simply NOT stop you............And again....You may take the Seminiaries with you, if you promise not to infiltrate an Arminian Church again.


Now, THAT!!!! is a fair deal if ever I heard one...But, I know you don't want it...........You want Arminian support more than anything don't you???

Calvinists didn't even start your "Church"..........Arminians did.....and Calvinists simply "Assimmilated" it, like the "Borg" do...........

I refuse to be "Assimmilated"...........
Yeah......I know this game, and it's why I ain't a Calvinist.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

HoS,

The Internet being what it is, it's almost impossible to know what personal issues others have. Your problem with alcohol is a very real problem for many. I pray that God's grace continues to be yours in fighting such an issue. I genuinely apologize for my sarcasm in that area. That said, you really can't seem to carry on a civil discussion. You display a great deal of immaturity. For my part I need to avoid such discussions as they are not Christ-like. Thankfully the BaptistBroad provides the administrative options necessary to avoid such discussions. I am going to avail myself of them right now.

A very mature attitude Herald & a wise move on your part!

Cheers:thumbs:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

HoS,

The Internet being what it is, it's almost impossible to know what personal issues others have. Your problem with alcohol is a very real problem for many. I pray that God's grace continues to be yours in fighting such an issue. I genuinely apologize for my sarcasm in that area. That said, you really can't seem to carry on a civil discussion. You display a great deal of immaturity. For my part I need to avoid such discussions as they are not Christ-like. Thankfully the BaptistBroad provides the administrative options necessary to avoid such discussions. I am going to avail myself of them right now.

Good.......... Then Please take all of our Seminaries, and all our property and go away..........and never pollute the doors of an Arminian Church or Institution again.

 

[Herald]

A very mature attitude Herald & a wise move on your part!

Cheers:thumbs:

Well, I guess peaceable separation can begin here on the BaptistBoard! It's a shame, really. Most people would never act this way in person. I have family members and friends who are FW'ers. We get along quite well. We worship separately, and that's okay. But there's something about message boards that reveals the worst in some people. Maybe it's the illusion of anonymity. I'm not sure. What I do know is the person who invented the "ignore" feature is a genius.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Good.......... Then Please take all of our Seminaries, and all our property and go away..........and never pollute the doors of an Arminian Church or Institution again.

you are a little muddled he arent you HOS. Herald & his church are already an independent reformed baptist church....thus your commentary is incredibly misplaced.

If your that angry at Calvinists, why are you not railing at people who are in SBC Churches who are already Calvinistic in theology? So your efforts to insult & embarrass Herald really falls on deaf ears. Aim in a different direction next time. Maybe you will hit something besides your foot.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, I guess peaceable separation can begin here on the BaptistBoard! It's a shame, really. Most people would never act this way in person. I have family members and friends who are FW'ers. We get along quite well. We worship separately, and that's okay. But there's something about message boards that reveals the worst in some people. Maybe it's the illusion of anonymity. I'm not sure. What I do know is the person who invented the "ignore" feature is a genius.

I for one am a proponent of separation but I dont treat another's beliefs disrespectfully.....I just believe its better to have separate beliefs & different churches...you go to your church & I will go to mine.

 

[Tom Butler]

I want to repeat my contention that non-Cal Southern Baptists are not Arminians.

The church I serve is not Arminian. My pastor is not Arminian. I know of no one in my church who believes in salvation by grace through faith plus works.

I know of no one in my church who believes one may lose his salvation.

We can't really have a good productive discussion if we can't agree on definitions.

 

[Herald]

I want to repeat my contention that non-Cal Southern Baptists are not Arminians.

The church I serve is not Arminian. My pastor is not Arminian. I know of no one in my church who believes in salvation by grace through faith plus works.

I know of no one in my church who believes one may lose his salvation.

We can't really have a good productive discussion if we can't agree on definitions.

Tom,

All I asked was what is the dominant theological position that is preached from your pulpit. It's either DoG or non-Dog. Note: I didn't use any inflammatory rhetoric.

 

[Benjamin]

That isn't cute.........

I had a very serious drinking problem.

God has graciously been delivering me from it. I am praising God for what he is doing for me.

How DARE you........

Your post, may have been designed to be "cutesy".....but, it was sick.....

That is sick.

I have been working through JUST THAT problem:

Do you think it constructive to talk like that??

No, Herald, I think you made a mis-step here. That is personal to the 'n'th to me...........and it isn't a joke.

I hold to what I hold to...........and my thoughts are thought-through and relatively erudite.....

What you just said, was sheer trash. Trash. that was Nasty, it hurt, and it is all the more proof that Arminians should want NOTHING to do with Calvinists....Please take all our institutions, Our Seminaries, and please, just walk away, and take Calvinist talk like that with you, and never speak like you have just spoken again.......That has been my position from post #1.

Brother, I feel sorry that that suggestion still brings back painful memories out of the past and want to express my concern and give hope and share some understanding about the struggles you face that could be compared to what is referred to as “PTSD” and which obviously truly continue to haunt and to hurt you. But you know what, I’m going to pray for you about this that these former things become so far and completely removed that it seems as if a another life that no way belongs to you today other than you having an ability to locate a few old scars you might be stuck with that you can find and only if you are inclined to do so because of looking for them to help another see that you have been there and can relate to what he is feeling. That is what I’m doing here and now.

I hope that someday that suggestions like what you experienced here today will no longer seem as a threat or even a cruel reminder of the pain because you will be completely confident that the new life you are living is sure and the former involving the detriments of alcohol is dead and gone. You are now protected and much stronger because of having experienced such a dreadful fight. I want and pray you to someday personally be absolutely confident that you have won that war and the enemy has no possibility of reviving it or using those tricks to ever harm you again. The old is dead and will never come back because you remain alive and will continue so through Christ in your new life. Nothing will pluck this this new life of yours out of His hand and you are aware of the former mistakes you have made which allowed your shields to come down and you to be vulnerable. But now Christ who steps on the neck of Satan can and will remind you and help you to hold that shield up high and as sure as you know that you will never let go of your faith you know that shield will never come down. I'm saying this because I want you know and have hope that Christ can fully assure you that you could go never go back to the former because you are strengthened and you are far too wise today to ever make that mistake of ever allowing alcohol to cause injury to you again in your new life.

With this thought, I want to address this issue in case it also applies, because if so, I hope that someday soon you will allow yourself be released from the chains where one feels the need to refer or even think of himself as an “alcoholic” but only have to know that you “were” an alcoholic in a completely former life that will stay in the past being dead. I know that some will tell you that this chain (calling and thinking of oneself as an alcoholic forever, holding on to such a title, and/or being hurt and scared of that threat of letting go of it) can never be removed and that is a painful thing to have to live with, therefore I am here to tell you, having been in similar situation, that God has blessed me with the strength to put these things in my former life so far behind me that if someone unconscionably makes such an accusation against me it actually makes me smile rather than hurts because it reminds how grateful I am to no longer be that person who could ever again make the same mistakes or be vulnerable to the same weapons that the Devil has used against me in the past.

In case you've never heard one quite like it, this is my testimony to you that these chains and pain can be removed because I want to be sure that you have "hope" that you too can be freed of these feelings. I pray that God shows you too how and why I would bring this up to you and that you will someday share in my joy because of seeing these things in this light as I have described above.

Blessings to you.

 

[Revmitchell]

That isn't cute.........

I had a very serious drinking problem.

God has graciously been delivering me from it. I am praising God for what he is doing for me.

How DARE you........

Your post, may have been designed to be "cutesy".....but, it was sick.....

That is sick.

I have been working through JUST THAT problem:

Do you think it constructive to talk like that??

No, Herald, I think you made a mis-step here. That is personal to the 'n'th to me...........and it isn't a joke.

I hold to what I hold to...........and my thoughts are thought-through and relatively erudite.....

What you just said, was sheer trash. Trash. that was Nasty, it hurt, and it is all the more proof that Arminians should want NOTHING to do with Calvinists....Please take all our institutions, Our Seminaries, and please, just walk away, and take Calvinist talk like that with you, and never speak like you have just spoken again.......That has been my position from post #1.

I was raised in a home with drunk and abusive parents. I became a drunk and have been homeless 4 times. The Lord delivered me from it as well.

Your reaction is quite the drama. Get over it.

 

[Tom Butler]

All I asked was what is the dominant theological position that is preached from your pulpit. It's either DoG or non-Dog. Note: I didn't use any inflammatory rhetoric.

Actually, I was referring to Heir of Salvation's post #53. I just want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing.

HOS may very well be Arminian according to my definition. I'm sure he will clarify that for us.

There are Arminian Baptists. We call them Free-Will Baptists. Or General Baptists

We have to understand that most Baptists, particularly SBCs and IfBs, are sort of a hybrid. Most are not Calvinist and they're not Arminian, so we have to use a different term to identify them. That's why I came up with DoG or non-DoG. Non-Cal seemed to bulky, but it'll work as well.

We've even had some Calvinists here called Hardshell. They're not.

So, agreeing on terms is important.

 

[Herald]

Actually, I was referring to Heir of Salvation's post #53. I just want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing.

HOS may very well be Arminian according to my definition. I'm sure he will clarify that for us.

There are Arminian Baptists. We call them Free-Will Baptists. Or General Baptists

We have to understand that most Baptists, particularly SBCs and IfBs, are sort of a hybrid. Most are not Calvinist and they're not Arminian, so we have to use a different term to identify them. That's why I came up with DoG or non-DoG. Non-Cal seemed to bulky, but it'll work as well.

So, agreeing on terms is important.

We've even had some Calvinists here called Hardshell. They're not.

Tom, gotcha. I'm unable to see HoS' posts, so I didn't know you were responding to him.

 

[Revmitchell]

General Baptists are not Arminian Baptists.

 

[Benjamin]

I was raised in a home with drunk and abusive parents. I became a drunk and have been homeless 4 times. The Lord delivered me from it as well.

Your reaction is quite the drama. Get over it.

So even haven been in such a situation you can express no better understanding and sympathy for the feelings that may cause one to be a bit emotional and dramatic about senseless and unconscionable "jokes" such as was presented? You might consider showing that you have more tact than to call it "drama" and tell him to "get over it" if you truly would like to helpful by relating that you too have experienced the detriments of alcohol, tough guy. This may "be the internet" and a debate board but...get real!

 

[Revmitchell]

So even haven been in such a situation you can express no better understanding and sympathy for the feelings that may cause one to be a bit emotional and dramatic about senseless and unconscionable "jokes" such as was presented? You might consider showing that you have more tact than to call it "drama" and tell him to "get over it" if you truly would like to helpful by relating that you too have experienced the detriments of alcohol, tough guy. This may "be the internet" and a debate board but...get real!

"Get Real"...exactly. There is nothing real about over-emotional hype over nothing.

 

[Herald]

I for one am a proponent of separation but I dont treat another's beliefs disrespectfully.....I just believe its better to have separate beliefs & different churches...you go to your church & I will go to mine.

I'm torn by that, even though I agree with it in principle. There are certain doctrines that lend themselves to separating; the debate surrounding the DoG is one of them. But there are other issues that may not be as contentious. For instance, there are three elders in our church. All three hold to a different view of eschatology: dispensational premillennial, historic premillennial, and amillennial. We all concur that the Lord will visibly return; we just disagree on how that will play out in time. I'm a believer in the RPW (Regulative Principle of Worship). Not everyone in our church is on board with that. Do I think worship is important? Absolutely! But I have to remind myself that we became an RB church four years ago. I am not willing to break fellowship in these areas.

 

[12strings]

I really think you are missing some important points in this debate, Heir, so for what's it worth, here's my take:

FINE.........But, I did, in MY post......and my suggestion was.....I am perfectly willing to cede EVERYTHING to you guys, if you will leave our Churches and Institutions ALONE....and not attempt to infiltrate them...Is That FAIR?
If not, Why not????

-Would it be fair if Cals asked Arms the same thing? Would they take the offer? Some likely would, and others wouldn't. We'll never know because it will never happen...In the hypothetical situation that it DID come up on either side...I suspect neither would do it because BOTH enjoy the financial aid and energy and even fellowship of churches and christians from the other side.
-You might be forgetting that a Calvinistic Baptist church in the SBC by the very nature of the relationship GIVES to the SBC, and gives TO many Arminian missionaries. So if you are painting a picture of all these calvinistic chuches being propped up by the SBC pumping money into them...it's not really accurate.

But, it was created by obvious Arminians......hence my desire, for the Calvinists to GO AWAY, and start their own churches, and leave us "heretics" alone..................

We ARE "HERETICS"........So, start your own churches, please, and leave us alone......

1. I don't know the exact history of the immediate beginnings of the SBC...I do know that fairly soon after its beginnings there were some very prominent calvinists, ones who started some of the Seminaries and institutions.

2. Reformed SBCers DO start their own churches...autonomous churches that voluntarily associate and give money to the majority Arminian SBC.

It has been the habit of Calvinists, to force Arminians out.......It has NEVER been the habit of Arminians to force Calvinists out..............and Therein, they have erred. It is time for Arminians to "force" Calvinists out.....but, you don't REALLY WANT to leave do you????

1. You should know that you should NEVER make a "never" statement...Paige Patterson at Southwestern seminary has done just that...some churches have done it as well.

2. In case you missed it before...Herald is not in the SBC.

You want the support Arminians always offer in Christ-like "Unity".......but, you seek to also undermine them with Theological teaching by taking advantage of their good-will.................
IF I were the un-questioned dictator of the SBC......and I said to you:
"Take EVERY Institution.....take every penny of value, take all the real estate....and NEVER.......infiltrate an Arminian Church AGAIN......You would turn it down.

That makes me worse than sick.......
It is Arminianism which keeps Calvinism alive today...

So you are saying that it makes you sick that you have imagined an answer (that was never given) to your own hypothetical question and applied it to someone who is not even in a position to act on that situation should it arise (since he is not SBC)?

Your OWN CHURCH is a PARASITE borne upon the backs of Arminians, as you have freely admitted..........

If you read what Herald wrote, characterizing his church as a takeover or some conspiracy is simply not fair.

....also...

...It [Herald's thoughtless comment] is all the more proof that Arminians should want NOTHING to do with Calvinists....Please take all our institutions, Our Seminaries, and please, just walk away, and take Calvinist talk like that with you,

You are here parroting the unfair and innacurate belief that people say unkind or thoughtless things BECAUSE of their soteriological position. People say thoughtless things because they (cal & arm) are sinners.

 

[12strings]

I want to repeat my contention that non-Cal Southern Baptists are not Arminians.

The church I serve is not Arminian. My pastor is not Arminian. I know of no one in my church who believes in salvation by grace through faith plus works.

I know of no one in my church who believes one may lose his salvation.

We can't really have a good productive discussion if we can't agree on definitions.

I would argue that by most standard definitions...those given by both Cals & Arminians, most Non-cal Baptists ARE arminians...because

1. Salvation by grace through faith plus works is not a fair description of arminianism.

2. Classical Arminian theologians will tell you that it is not necessary to believe one can lose their salvation in order to be Arminian. Jacobus himself was undecided on the issue.