Let's just avoid the comparison all together. That is what is fair.
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The Sharp Divide: How to deal with it
- Thread starter Herald
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Let's just avoid the comparison all together. That is what is fair.
So what I think I'm getting is this...It is better (less confusing, less volatile, less chance for unfair associations) all around for everyone if we use terms to describe ourselves and others that are NOT tied to a person's name, but since it is helpful to use descriptive terms to refer to a set of beliefs and/or practices, we should simply use different words...for example:
-reformed is better than calvinist
-free-will is better than arminian
-presbyterian is a better name than lutheran
-methodist is a better name than wesleyan
-Baptist is a better name than mennonite
-reformed is better than calvinist
-free-will is better than arminian
-presbyterian is a better name than lutheran
-methodist is a better name than wesleyan
-Baptist is a better name than mennonite
I'm struggling with this right now. I had to litterly pull out of a pastor that he is diirecting the church he pastors in, in the direction of New Covenant theology (which he is serious about). When I confronted him with it as a sticking point, he shoved it off as something that I would have to just get over. I beg to differ...this a NCT thing will influence his entire teaching process ...and I would want to avoid that least it starts to impact my thinking process adversely. Subsequently I don't even trust or like the guy now...frankly view him as dishonest.
There is a difference between individuals who hold to a contrary position and decide not to leave a church and someone who knows exactly what they are doing and trying to pull a power play (overtly or covertly). I know people who cannot leave the church they are in because of their spouse or children. It is those people I am writing about; the people with honorable intentions.
Well, if we are in a position of church leadership our belief system should not be a mystery. If you move into a new town and are looking for a new church, should that church's belief system be difficult to ascertain? I have visited some church websites that purposely do not state what they believe. I know one pastor who told me, "We follow the Bible. That's what we believe." That had to be one of the most evasive answers I was ever given. Of course all Christian churches will claim to follow the Bible, but does that mean each church believes the same thing about the Bible? If so, then why do some churches teach the FW position and others the DoG? Why are some churches cessationist and other churches are are not? Finally, why are some churches so sensitive about coming clean on what they believe? Is it some sort of state secret?
I agree with this, I was simply pointing out that both you and rev seem to not want to use labels that come from a human leader, but rather simply describe what you believe...which make sense.
Are you saying it is UNFAIR to look at one group of people's beliefs on a certain issue, and then look at a two well-known historical figures, and then say that on this particular issue, group "A" seems to agree with person "X", and group "B" seems to agree with person "Z"?
I agree with justification by faith...That doesn't make me a baby-baptizing Lutheran, but it does mean that on the issue of justification, I am more Lutheran than Roman Catholic. And I don't have a problem with someone saying that about me.
I will concede this much; if I'm asked whether I'm a Calvinist, I'll answer that I agree with Calvin on some things but disagree with him on others. If I am labeled a Calvinist because of my belief on election and predestination, I can accept that. I just do not define myself by that term.
Its a state secret if they are attempting to manipulate and sell a theology through sneaking it in...I remember one pastor just state that he was slowly educating the flock to a point they would accept Calvinism without any pushback. It is done all the time. This pastor stealthfully introducing NCT is one example. This guy would never pubically admit to it unless caught in the act. Ive seen another pastor flood his website with salvation testimomies but without siting substantives as to the grace that got them saved in the first place. These are all very deceptive tactics ...not operating above board.
Agreeing with Lutherans does not make on "more Lutheran". It just means that you agree with them.
This example, on face value, seems to be disingenuous (not on your part, but the pastor's part).
Thanks Herald for the reality check:thumbs:
Benjamin
You would like to twist my words to say so. It frustrates you evidently.
Are you saying that someone who hates his brother demonstrates the marks of a christian?
What does this mean? It does not put any money in my pocket to destroy you, to speak evil of you. I would rather speak and discuss things that edify. Your dislike of what I hold as truth prevents this from happening.
You sound like an intelligent person just misguided and off track from what I can see. Your constant attacks against the biblical position force the responses to go in a certain direction. You come across as an enemy.
I doubt you would have to use your words"guts enough" to "man up' and quote scripture as your flesh was melting in the flame. Your comment is more insensitive than any here. Can you try and conduct yourself in a different way...you are sounding bitter:love2:
I would be more confident of them and their scriptural testimony than your snide comments.....the book is Fair Sunshine....read it and tell me if you want to recant of your poor statements.
You would like to twist my words to say so. It frustrates you evidently.
Are you saying that someone who hates his brother demonstrates the marks of a christian?
What does this mean? It does not put any money in my pocket to destroy you, to speak evil of you. I would rather speak and discuss things that edify. Your dislike of what I hold as truth prevents this from happening.
You sound like an intelligent person just misguided and off track from what I can see. Your constant attacks against the biblical position force the responses to go in a certain direction. You come across as an enemy.
Calvin has lived and died and will face God as his Lord and Saviour, or as judge. The teaching does not depend on his view of theocracy at Geneva.Some attack him, some defend him. God has already dealt with him.....Do not let that issue detract from the scripture. He was only one man,
You attack herald saying he was insensitve, or revmitchel, with Hos comments...and now make fun or make light of the Scottish Covenanters
I doubt you would have to use your words"guts enough" to "man up' and quote scripture as your flesh was melting in the flame. Your comment is more insensitive than any here. Can you try and conduct yourself in a different way...you are sounding bitter:love2:
I would be more confident of them and their scriptural testimony than your snide comments.....the book is Fair Sunshine....read it and tell me if you want to recant of your poor statements.
I was rhetorically making fun of "your" reasoning and debate tactics...get a clue!
:thumbs:
Making fun of me or my abilities is one thing.....if you read the book ,you would not include them in it
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/663517.Fair_Sunshine
http://www.wicketgate.co.uk/issue50/e50_5.html
Snippets from the Covenanters
From the book "Fair Sunshine" by Jock Purves
A COVENANTER'S ORDINATION.
"After Brown, and Koelman, a Dutch minister, had lifted their hands, the great MacWard kept his upon Richard Cameron's light brown locks, saying 'here is the head of a faithful minister and servant of Jesus Christ who shall lose the same for his Master's interest, and it shall be set up before sun and moon in the public view of the world'"
A COVENANTER'S REUNION.
"Before the hangman set head and hands on the blood-stained Netherbow Port… a hero saint lying in prison was shown them. He was Alan Cameron, Covenanter. The cruel question was asked him 'Do you know them?' … He kissed them, saying 'I know them. I know them. They are my son's, my own dear son's. It is the Lord. Good is the will of the Lord, who cannot wrong me nor mine, but has made goodness and mercy to follow us all our days'".
A COVENANTER'S WEDDING.
"John Brown was the very close friend of both Richard Cameron, the Lion of the Covenant, and of Alexander Peden, the Prophet of the Covenant. Peden had married Brown to Isabel Weir in 1682, and after this simple Puritan ceremony had said to Isabel: 'Ye have a good man to be your husband, but ye will not enjoy him long; prize his company and keep linen by you to be his winding sheet, for ye will need it when ye are not looking for it, and it will be a bloody one.'"
A COVENANTER'S LEGACY.
"But the killer of many (Claverhouse) unbelted his pistol, and hastily walking up to John Brown, placed it to his head, and blew his brains out, scattering them over the ground. Looking at his ghastly work with a sardonic smile, he turned to Isabel saying: 'What do you think of your fine husband now?' And through her sad tears she bravely answered: 'I ever thought much good of him, and more than ever now…' Isabel Brown set her child upon the ground, gathered up her husband's brains, tied up his head, straightened his body, and, covering it with a plaid, sat down and wept."
"She bound the corpse's shattered head,
And shrouded the martyr in his plaid;
And where the dead and living slept,
Sat in the wilderness and wept".
back to Edition 50 Index to top of page to next article
This Page Title – Snippets on the Covenanters
The Wicket Gate Magazine "A Continuing Witness".
Internet Edition number 50 – placed on line September 2004
Wicket Gate contact address – Mr Cliff Westcombe cw@wicketgate.co.uk
If you wish to be notified when each new edition goes on line please send an e-mail to the above address
Magazine web address – www.wicketgate.co.uk
saturneptune
New Member
While we disagree on some points of Scripture, one thing I could never do is make fun of your abilities. To me, there is nothing more admirable than learning the depth of knowledge, including the languages, that you have by self reading. Whether I agree with the posts or not, they come across as well or better than many who have spent more time in seminary than they did K-12. That is the only way I have ever learned, but not in the depths you post, especially on DoGs, end times, and covenant vs dispy theology.
Thank you for posting those lines. They were very moving, even though I am not quite sure how they relate to the thread.
saturneptune
New Member
No, hating ones brother does not set a good example as a Christian. That is the second great commandment. In fact, I do not think we should hate anyone, believer or unbeliever. Hate is a word that is tossed around lightly. It is like the difference between joy and happy. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit that abides in ones soul if saved, and is there always for the Christian. Happy is a surface feeling that comes and goes. Hate is one of those down deep characteristics that is always present. It is not the mark of a Christian. Angry or mad comes and goes on the surface like happy. Of course, when we observe someone angry at someone else, we really do not know if it is genuine hate or not. If it is true abiding hate, especially for a fellow brother or sister in Christ, I do not see how they could be a believer.
Personally I think it is rare for there to be a true hatred of one member to another on this board. I do think we all get frustrated with each other for several reasons. One is not communicating well in this medium. It could also be from a significant difference in the depth of understanding the issue between the two parties. Also, there are some issues that anger a certain person. The differences between Doctrines of Grace and free will seems to pull everyone's chain to one degree or another. I believe most personal attacks are out of frurstration, not genuine hate. We cannot see each other face to face. Sometimes a persons wording or manner of expressing themselves seems rude to another when in fact it is not.
Maybe it is more of a frustrated person than an enemy.
This is one point you are totally correct about. This is one person from the past I have a real problem with, especially having an entire major Biblical doctrine named after. I do not know if it was that Mr. Calvin was constantly talked about in church growing up, (I grew up in a PCA church). This has been talked about over and over. This is one of those things I need to let go. God as already dealt with it as you said. Things like this can eat a person up.
There are some participants on this board that display a lack of Christian charity in many of their posts. I have had to repent of my responding in kind to some of their posts. Insulting others is not the mark of a believer. Doing it repeatedly is the mark of someone who is unregenerate. I had to block those posters. Perhaps it is best for them too. If my theological positions bother them so much they are best served by avoiding them.
saturneptune
We are to be stewards of whatever we have from God..Jesus said we are to love God and love our neighbor which is expressed in the 10 commandments in our heart.
10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Paul repeats this in romans 13:8-10
4 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.[/QUOTE]
So....it is not optional but rather if we are doers of the word we must labour with all our strength to do this-
When a pastor goes to seminary they are under pressure to acquire theology and be concerned to pass classes to some extent.They do not have as much time to meditate on what they are learning as they will have afterwards.
What happens next is, they begin in a church and find out that the demands of ministry and dealing with "troubled" or needy saints occupy their time and use them up. if they are not seriously disciplined in their private devotional life and maintain a solid discipline of reading and study, they are in danger of burnout.
Early on God providentially placed me in the path of several very substantial ministries where the pastors did not slack -off so to speak, but were pedal to the metal kind of teachers.
Being pointed to some of the more solid teachers helps,big time in that you do not have to re-invent the wheel.Everything builds and grows as it should.
I was taught several of the wrong positions first...but I was told they were true. In trying to defend them, i really tried to learn them throughly.
When i studied through Hebrews for a few years ...it changed my theological world.
Interesting thing about learning more....you learn how much you did not know before, and how much more you still do not know.:thumbs:
We are to be stewards of whatever we have from God..Jesus said we are to love God and love our neighbor which is expressed in the 10 commandments in our heart.
10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Paul repeats this in romans 13:8-10
4 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.[/QUOTE]
So....it is not optional but rather if we are doers of the word we must labour with all our strength to do this-
When a pastor goes to seminary they are under pressure to acquire theology and be concerned to pass classes to some extent.They do not have as much time to meditate on what they are learning as they will have afterwards.
What happens next is, they begin in a church and find out that the demands of ministry and dealing with "troubled" or needy saints occupy their time and use them up. if they are not seriously disciplined in their private devotional life and maintain a solid discipline of reading and study, they are in danger of burnout.
Early on God providentially placed me in the path of several very substantial ministries where the pastors did not slack -off so to speak, but were pedal to the metal kind of teachers.
Being pointed to some of the more solid teachers helps,big time in that you do not have to re-invent the wheel.Everything builds and grows as it should.
The book Fair Sunshine is like Foxes book of martyrs. It is a short paperback but as sad as it is in that it is accounts of believers being put to death by religious persons....one thing comes across.God had them in His hand. I do not like to read too many accounts like that one , but it stays with you when you read it.
I was taught several of the wrong positions first...but I was told they were true. In trying to defend them, i really tried to learn them throughly.
When i studied through Hebrews for a few years ...it changed my theological world.
Interesting thing about learning more....you learn how much you did not know before, and how much more you still do not know.:thumbs:
This is so true.Sometimes in the heat of the discussion we can get pulled in...so to speak , but emotions, or responding to lying, or twisting of words.
I deal with a rough crowd so to speak as i travel about,and sometimes i forget to mentally shift gears so to speak and keep a biblical priority to things.
This struggle to mortify pride is a work in progress. The failures are for all to see:thumbs: When we remember it is God's church and His people we get back on track:wavey:
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