Elect from eternity past is determinism.
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The sinners prayer
- Thread starter evangelist6589
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Elect from eternity past is determinism.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Actually after looking up the definition I must concede that you may be correct.
I must take exception to #1 above. Normally all facts and events follow natural law. However, on occasion God may set aside natural law and perform a miracle contrary to natural law! You do believe in miracles do you not?
However, when it comes to salvation, God chose certain to Salvation from the foundation of the world and will bring those "elect" to Salvation in Jesus Christ. I believe God's election and Sovereign Grace are sufficient causes.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It's a perfectly reasonable term, and quite accurate.
It cannot be resisted, therefore it is, by definition....."irresistible".
Whether that is because God has so providentially determined or ordered things such that no person to whom he chose to extend that grace has the will to "resist" or can possibly desire to resist or by some other means......it is the case that there is no set of circumstances wherein the object of God's grace, can possibly either resist it or choose to resist it.......
So.....it's "irresistible".
I can conquer a people by drugging them sufficiently such that they have no will......nay, even a desire to "resist", and therefore rendering my will "irresistible".
"overpowering" would be, perhaps...
or maybe "conquering"...
but not "irresistible".
Calvinists just hate words which accurately describe their beliefs
such as "determined" or "limited" atonement etc...
Soon we'll get the "Particular Atonement" speech I imagine as well.
You are entitled to your opinion even when it is nonsense!
Inspector Javert
Active Member
If it is "nonsense" to claim that the term "irresistible grace" is accurate and useful, then it is was similarly "foolish" for those proponents of YOUR THEOLOGY who coined the term to have done so.
I am merely saying that when they coined the term...
It was accurate and meaningful and remains useful.
My "opinion" (when it comes to those particular terms) is that the Calvinists who created them knew what they meant when they created those terms to describe their own view.
Your attempt at calling my opinion "foolish" is not particularly helpful to your cause inasmuch as you are calling your fellow Theological allies "fools" for coining the phrase to begin with. :thumbsup:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You make unsubstantiated statements about my belief system. I have invited you on another thread to define what constitutes that belief system. You are invited to do the same on this thread if it is convenient for you to do so. As I said earlier I am patient.
There is no method of evangelism that can assure no false converts. Jesus doesn't even address methods of evangelism causing false converts. They will be around regardless of the sinners prayer or not.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You have said it well! And no system of theology is going to assure no false converts either!
Tom Butler
New Member
I don't know any Calvinist who believes that God saves people against their wills.
Old Regular said in his post that God makes them willing. How does He do that?
Ezekiel 36:26 gives us a clue:
In other words, God changes our "want-to."
How does He do that? I dunno. But it is obvious that it is an act of God Himself.
Here's Jeremiah 24:7
There are no conditions here. This is a unilateral act of God
And Jesus Himself told Nicodemus in John 3 that nobody can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. We call it being regenerated.
Regeneration, then, is a sovereign act of God. Thus, salvation follows regeneration.
Old Regular said in his post that God makes them willing. How does He do that?
Ezekiel 36:26 gives us a clue:
In other words, God changes our "want-to."
How does He do that? I dunno. But it is obvious that it is an act of God Himself.
Here's Jeremiah 24:7
There are no conditions here. This is a unilateral act of God
And Jesus Himself told Nicodemus in John 3 that nobody can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. We call it being regenerated.
Regeneration, then, is a sovereign act of God. Thus, salvation follows regeneration.
thiose who view election as based upon our free will, as God forknowledge of us deciding to accept jesus meant that God elected from eternity, as he already knew that would happen!
Either way, its still election from etrnity past, just questionif the basis for it was will of god or will of man!
usually, many who refuse the traditional calvinistic view of salvation also have faulty views regarding the fall also!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Thank's Tom! Well said and just as I believe the Bible teaches!
You keep bringing up this foreseen faith view but I don't know anyone that adheres to that.
God speaks of it as LOVE.
The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Actually foreseen faith has nothing to do with election!
That's one of the biggest failings of Calvinism. It reduces the new covenant rebirth/regeneration to a mere, subjective change on disposition. BUT, if you read Hebrews 9-10, the New Covenant promises to PERFECT us, to REMOVE sins.
Calvinism portrays the scenario as God washing us, but we're still dirty. New heart, but still the same old guy
Horrible
Inspector Javert
Active Member
I know of absolutely no non-Calvinist (at least recently on this board) who thinks or claims that Calvinists believe that God saves people against their wills.
Well, I had to think twice about why you'd say that with all the hyper-determinist on this board that deny any human volition exists whatsoever, but then I remembered that Calvinist believe that God gives them a new will first so I guess I get it.
Yeah that's right, God recreates the will when He's ready for His influences to actually be effectual so no real choice then it logically follows no saving them against their will. :tonofbricks: How could have missed those little details!
I like that.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. Jn 3:14,15
And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21:8
The brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten. It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Him.
...They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5:6
But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21
God has already wrought within those that come to Christ, He's given them the "want-to", whether it's manifested as fear of retribution, or a desire to live, or an inexplicable attraction to Him, it doesn't matter, the Spirit works in many ways within His children. It's AFTER they get to Christ is when they learn the truth about things.
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