The sinners prayer

[OldRegular]

It is not my fault if you do not pay attention, I said this in post #98;

It is God alone who can forgive sins and regenerate a person, giving them spiritual life, but God never saves alone, he uses men as instruments.

I believe I said this in several other posts in this thread alone, and I have said it probably dozens of times since I have been at BB. You need to pay better attention to what others say.

I believe that most on this forum would be surprised to learn that you have made that statement dozens of times Winman. I can only recall you saying it once and that on this thread! Perhaps that is because of the attitude of repressed anger that comes through in your posts.

 

[Winman]

It is entirely possible that I have used the term salvation when I should have used the term regeneration. I believe that regeneration of one "dead in sin" is the work of God alone. Man plays no role and I believe that is consistent with the teaching of Jesus Christ in John 3:3ff and Ephesians 2:1-8. I should note that some use the term "effectual call" rather than regeneration. Martyn Lloyd-Jones uses both.

That being said there are a number of events that occur in salvation, the initial event being regeneration. At some point after regeneration conversion will occur. Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!] In conversion the regenerate man exercises the gift of faith bestowed upon regeneration. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal experience of a regenerate person with Holy God. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. God saves people one at a time!

I believe the problem is that Calvinists redefine the word "regeneration". The word regeneration means to "generate" or make alive "again" (re).

Why is a man dead in the first place? Because of trespasses and sins. No man can be regenerated while he is still under his trespasses and sins. This is why Jesus said unless you believe you shall die in your sins.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Calvinism teaches that regeneration occurs before faith, but that is impossible. Until you believe you are DEAD IN YOUR SINS. You cannot be alive before you believe. It is only after you believe and your sins are forgiven that you can be alive or regenerated.

Colossians 2:13 shows exactly when a man is quickened or regenerated, when his trespasses and sins are forgiven, which occurs AFTER a man believes.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Calvinism will claim over and over that regeneration occurs before faith, but they do not have a single word of scripture to support this. But there is much scripture that shows you must believe first to have life or regeneration.

 

[Winman]

I believe that most on this forum would be surprised to learn that you have made that statement dozens of times Winman. I can only recall you saying it once and that on this thread! Perhaps that is because of the attitude of repressed anger that comes through in your posts.

If they are surprised, then they also need to pay better attention. I have ALWAYS said that God alone has the power to give man life, which is regeneration.

That said, God requires that a man must believe before he regenerates him. Unless you believe you will die in your sins.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[OldRegular]

Calvinism will claim over and over that regeneration occurs before faith, but they do not have a single word of scripture to support this. But there is much scripture that shows you must believe first to have life or regeneration.

Winman while you are dead in sin you can do nothing. That is why regeneration must precede faith! You might try reading John 3:3ff and Ephesians 2:1-8.

 

[OldRegular]

If they are surprised, then they also need to pay better attention. I have ALWAYS said that God alone has the power to give man life, which is regeneration.

That said, God requires that a man must believe before he regenerates him. Unless you believe you will die in your sins.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The unregenerate man is already dead in sin. You claim a dead man can believe himself to life.

 

[Revmitchell]

If you do not like the sinners prayer do not use it. To suggest that everyone who has prayed it is a false convert only shows you do not know anything about it.

 

[Winman]

Winman while you are dead in sin you can do nothing. That is why regeneration must precede faith! You might try reading John 3:3ff and Ephesians 2:1-8.

That is where you are wrong. To be dead in sin does not mean to be like a lifeless corpse as Calvinism falsely portrays. The rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 could talk, see, hear, feel pain and torment, thirst, he could repent, worry about his brothers, and carry on a conversation with Abraham. Rather lively for a lifeless corpse!

To be dead in sin means to be condemned, to be under a death sentence. You are like a man on death row awaiting execution. It does not mean you cannot hear the gospel and repent. The rich man repented after his physical death, but that was too late. He could have repented before his physical death.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Calvinism is wrong to compare spiritual death to physical death, they are not the same. Adam and Eve were spiritually dead when they sinned in the garden, and both were able to come to God when he called him. They believed God and God clothed them with skins that represents the righteousness imputed to believers.

Cain was dead in sin, but God himself said he could do well, and if he did he would be accepted.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This teaching that sinners cannot respond to God is absolutely false. Calvinism abounds with error.

 

[OldRegular]

That is where you are wrong. To be dead in sin does not mean to be like a lifeless corpse as Calvinism falsely portrays. The rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 could talk, see, hear, feel pain and torment, thirst, he could repent, worry about his brothers, and carry on a conversation with Abraham. Rather lively for a lifeless corpse!

To be dead in sin means to be condemned, to be under a death sentence. You are like a man on death row awaiting execution. It does not mean you cannot hear the gospel and repent. The rich man repented after his physical death, but that was too late. He could have repented before his physical death.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Calvinism is wrong to compare spiritual death to physical death, they are not the same. Adam and Eve were spiritually dead when they sinned in the garden, and both were able to come to God when he called him. They believed God and God clothed them with skins that represents the righteousness imputed to believers.

Cain was dead in sin, but God himself said he could do well, and if he did he would be accepted.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This teaching that sinners cannot respond to God is absolutely false. Calvinism abounds with error.

You need to get your stories straight. Consider the passage you presented earlier from Colossians:

Colossians 2:13 shows exactly when a man is quickened or regenerated, when his trespasses and sins are forgiven, which occurs AFTER a man believes.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Consider the same passage from the NASB:

Colossians 2:13. And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

The NASB simply replaces the archaic "quickened" with made alive. Now ignore your false interpretation and look at what the Scripture states: When you were dead He made you alive. Nothing at all about you believing. This same truth is taught in Ephesians 2:1-8.

 

[JamesL]

Winman while you are dead in sin you can do nothing. That is why regeneration must precede faith! You might try reading John 3:3ff and Ephesians 2:1-8.

You make the same egregious error as your opponent, in thinking believing is a "do"

if you understood that believing happens TO you, instead of coming from you, you could refrain from agreeing with your opponent in the substance of your argument.

If you were regenerated first, then you were made godly first. That would make scripture erroneous when it declares that God justifies the UNgodly on account of faith.

Your view has God justifying a godly man. Hmmm.

But, I think this thread is on the verge of needing moved

 

[Winman]

You need to get your stories straight. Consider the passage you presented earlier from Colossians:



Consider the same passage from the NASB:

Colossians 2:13. And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

The NASB simply replaces the archaic "quickened" with made alive. Now ignore your false interpretation and look at what the Scripture states: When you were dead He made you alive. Nothing at all about you believing. This same truth is taught in Ephesians 2:1-8.

Oh yes there is something about believing there, it says HAVING FORGIVEN you all your trespasses. This is speaking in past tense and says God has made you alive HAVING FORGIVEN you all your sins.

And when are our sins forgiven? AFTER WE BELIEVE!!

So, you are not quickened or made alive until AFTER you believe. It is plain as day. I did not pick this scripture by accident. This scripture clearly shows a person is made alive when their sins are forgiven, and a person's sins are forgiven after they believe.

This scripture utterly refutes your view.

 

[OldRegular]

You make the same egregious error as your opponent, in thinking believing is a "do"

if you understood that believing happens TO you, instead of coming from you, you could refrain from agreeing with your opponent in the substance of your argument.

If you were regenerated first, then you were made godly first. That would make scripture erroneous when it declares that God justifies the UNgodly on account of faith.

Your view has God justifying a godly man. Hmmm.

But, I think this thread is on the verge of needing moved

I really don't know who you are talking to or what you are talking about but you are confusing justification with regeneration!

 

[Winman]

You make the same egregious error as your opponent, in thinking believing is a "do"

if you understood that believing happens TO you, instead of coming from you, you could refrain from agreeing with your opponent in the substance of your argument.

If you were regenerated first, then you were made godly first. That would make scripture erroneous when it declares that God justifies the UNgodly on account of faith.

Your view has God justifying a godly man. Hmmm.

But, I think this thread is on the verge of needing moved

Believing is something you do. Do you have a bank account? Then you trusted the bank to keep your money, you believed them to keep it safely for you. That is something you did.

Have you ever borrowed money to buy a car or house? Then your bank or finance company believed that you would pay them back with interest. That is absolutely doing something.

Believing is not something that just happens to you, it is a reasoned decision. If you heard your bank was about to shut their doors and keep everyone's money, you would rush down and get your money out as fast as you can. You would no longer trust them. That is a reasoned response.

 

[Winman]

I really don't know who you are talking to or what you are talking about but you are confusing justification with regeneration!

No, it is you that is confused, justification and regeneration happen at the same moment. The moment you are justified you are no longer condemned, you are no longer dead in sin. You are now spiritually alive.

But to be justified you must first believe. Therefore faith must precede regeneration.

 

[JamesL]

If you do not like the sinners prayer do not use it. To suggest that everyone who has prayed it is a false convert only shows you do not know anything about it.

We should all stand firm against a false gospel. By grace, through faith is what scripture declares.

Believing, not begging.

Rom 4:21-24
Abraham was fully assured that what God had promised, He is also able to perform. Therefore, it was credited to him as righteousness.

FULLY ASSURED, and he was made righteous.

Not "made a decision"
Not "said a prayer"
Not "asked forgiveness"
Not "made a commitment"

FULLY ASSURED by the Spirit of God.

 

[Winman]

We should all stand firm against a false gospel. By grace, through faith is what scripture declares.

Believing, not begging.

Rom 4:21-24
Abraham was fully assured that what God had promised, He is also able to perform. Therefore, it was credited to him as righteousness.

FULLY ASSURED, and he was made righteous.

Not "made a decision"
Not "said a prayer"
Not "asked forgiveness"
Not "made a commitment"

FULLY ASSURED by the Spirit of God.

Faith is not simply believing a fact, it is trusting Jesus to save you.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus doesn't want you to simply believe a fact, you have to COME TO HIM. You must come to him in your heart and trust him to save you, just as Jesus placed his spirit in his Father's hands on the cross. This is what believing means.

Anyone can believe an airplane can fly from New York to Chicago, but that won't get you to Chicago. To get to Chicago you have actually board the plane and trust it to take you safely there. This is what Jesus is asking you to do, to trust him with your life.

 

[Winman]

We should all stand firm against a false gospel. By grace, through faith is what scripture declares.

Believing, not begging.

Rom 4:21-24
Abraham was fully assured that what God had promised, He is also able to perform. Therefore, it was credited to him as righteousness.

FULLY ASSURED, and he was made righteous.

Not "made a decision"
Not "said a prayer"
Not "asked forgiveness"
Not "made a commitment"

FULLY ASSURED by the Spirit of God.

Jesus repeatedly told people to ask him for salvation.

Ask and it shall be given you,

Seek and ye shall find,

Knock and it shall be opened to you.

What does that spell ASK

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jesus absolutely taught people to ask him for the Holy Spirit, for eternal life as he did here with the Samaritan woman.

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

We are absolutely to pray to Jesus and ask for the Holy Spirit, to ask for the living water.

 

[JamesL]

I really don't know who you are talking to or what you are talking about but you are confusing justification with regeneration!

Talking to you. You're the one who thinks that God must change a heart so that a man now has the godly disposition needed with which he can choose Christ.

And you're also the one who stated that unregenerate man can't "do"

Thereby equating believing with doing, just like your opponent.

Why else would you think he needs to be regenerated first? Because he can't do any godly work from a state of depravity.

You try to mask it under the guise of God doing the work, so that you can pretend that man has no glory in it, but the bottom line is the same. You think that believing the gospel is a work. Just like your opponent.

 

[JamesL]

Faith is not simply believing a fact, it is trusting Jesus to save you.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus doesn't want you to simply believe a fact, you have to COME TO HIM. You must come to him in your heart and trust him to save you, just as Jesus placed his spirit in his Father's hands on the cross. This is what believing means.

Anyone can believe an airplane can fly from New York to Chicago, but that won't get you to Chicago. To get to Chicago you have actually board the plane and trust it to take you safely there. This is what Jesus is asking you to do, to trust him with your life.

Can you put in quotes anywhere that I've used such rhetoric as "believing a fact" ??

It's rather disingenuous to attribute words to me that you can't put in a quote.

Scripture declares, very plainly, that Abraham was fully assured that what God had promised, He is also able to perform. And that on account of this, he was counted righteous.

Your problem is that you're confusing "being fully assured" with "acting upon assurance"

You can be fully assured that someone put a million dollars in your bank account, and then never decide to go get it.

You can be fully assured that i can pay back a 20 dollar loan, and still decide not to loan it to me.

You can be fully assured that your car will get you across town, and never once decide to drive it.

Being fully assured means that you've been convinced of something. If that something is a promise, then it means you believe in the one who made the promise. That's why the scriptures tell us that Abraham "believed in God" and his faith was credited as righteousness.

He was fully assured of God's promise, which means he believed in God. BOTH are stated in scripture. Not one time does scripture state that anyone decided to believe a promise, nor any mandate for anyone to choose to believe the gospel.

You must become convinced, and come to a knowledge of the truth. And it is not humanly possible to decide to become convinced.

 

[evangelist6589]

Wow, what a fantastic argument you and Evangelist present. You guys are two peas in a pod.

Winman do you believe to be a good person? Do you think you have kept the 10 commandments? If so which ones?

Have you ever Lied before and if so what does that make you?
Have you ever stolen anything before and if so what does that make you?
Have you ever had a hateful thought towards another (especially towards a Calvinist)? If so what does that make you?
Have you ever looked at a woman and lusted?
Did you disobey your parent?

If God were to judge you by the commandments would you be innocent or guilty? If God were to send you to heaven or Hell where would he send you?

 

[Winman]

Winman do you believe to be a good person? Do you think you have kept the 10 commandments? If so which ones?

Have you ever Lied before and if so what does that make you?
Have you ever stolen anything before and if so what does that make you?
Have you ever had a hateful thought towards another (especially towards a Calvinist)? If so what does that make you?
Have you ever looked at a woman and lusted?
Did you disobey your parent?

If God were to judge you by the commandments would you be innocent or guilty? If God were to send you to heaven or Hell where would he send you?

Here are some questions for you.

If you are witnessing to Joe, trying to lead him to Christ, and it just so happens that God has chosen to regenerate Joe at this exact time,

Would he be regenerated if you asked him to pray the sinner's prayer?
Would he be regenerated if you told him nursery rhymes?
Would he be regenerated if you told him how to make your favorite chili?

Now, what if God has decided to pass Joe by and let him burn in hell;

Would Joe be converted if you preached the Ten Commandments to him?

If you are honest (remember those commandments you preach), you would have to admit as a Calvinist that it doesn't matter what you preach, if God has decided to regenerate Joe today, then he will be regenerated no matter what you preach to him. Likewise, if God has decided to pass by Joe, then no matter what you preach, even the Ten Commandments, Joe is not going to be saved. Even if you get him to say a sinner's prayer, he is going to be a false convert.

In other words, Paul Washer and John MacArthur have sold you a pile of cow manure. What you preach has nothing to do with whether a man is regenerated or not if Calvinism is true.

Now, you could have sent that money to these people that you owe thousands to, but you wasted it buying books that are telling you complete lies, because you are not smart enough to figure this out.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

And I don't hate Calvinists, I hate Calvinism. You cannot seem to tell the difference. But I do believe you have to be rather dull to be a Calvinist.