The sinners prayer

[evangelist6589]

Here are some questions for you.

If you are witnessing to Joe, trying to lead him to Christ, and it just so happens that God has chosen to regenerate Joe at this exact time,

Would he be regenerated if you asked him to pray the sinner's prayer?
Would he be regenerated if you told him nursery rhymes?
Would he be regenerated if you told him how to make your favorite chili?

Now, what if God has decided to pass Joe by and let him burn in hell;

Would Joe be converted if you preached the Ten Commandments to him?

If you are honest (remember those commandments you preach), you would have to admit as a Calvinist that it doesn't matter what you preach, if God has decided to regenerate Joe today, then he will be regenerated no matter what you preach to him. Likewise, if God has decided to pass by Joe, then no matter what you preach, even the Ten Commandments, Joe is not going to be saved. Even if you get him to say a sinner's prayer, he is going to be a false convert.

In other words, Paul Washer and John MacArthur have sold you a pile of cow manure. What you preach has nothing to do with whether a man is regenerated or not if Calvinism is true.

Now, you could have sent that money to these people that you owe thousands to, but you wasted it buying books that are telling you complete lies, because you are not smart enough to figure this out.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

And I don't hate Calvinists, I hate Calvinism. You cannot seem to tell the difference. But I do believe you have to be rather dull to be a Calvinist.

You think too much man. Too much thinking and not enough action.

 

[InTheLight]

You think too much man. Too much thinking and not enough action.

Why should we take action if man has zero responsibility in salvation? If God sovereignly does everything, what action do we need to take?

 

[JamesL]

Jesus repeatedly told people to ask him for salvation.

Ask and it shall be given you,

Seek and ye shall find,

Knock and it shall be opened to you.

What does that spell ASK

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jesus absolutely taught people to ask him for the Holy Spirit, for eternal life as he did here with the Samaritan woman.

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

We are absolutely to pray to Jesus and ask for the Holy Spirit, to ask for the living water.

When Jesus spoke about living water, He was speaking of the Holy Spirit. See John 7:37-39. He was speaking of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit had not been given to believers yet.

There isn't one shred of evidence that He was advocating, in either context, a prayer to be justified. That happens through faith, by itself

You're attempting to justify your preconceptions by taking scriptures out of context

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

There isn't one shred of evidence that He was advocating, in either context, a prayer to be justified. That happens through faith, by itself

While you're right about the Holy Spirit being the "Living Water," you're absolutely wrong about Jesus not acknowledging prayer as a means of acquiring salvation. Any words spoken to God are a prayer, and seeking God, as the tax collector on the street corner did, is nothing less than a prayer of salvation.

In other words, this ...

You're attempting to justify your preconceptions by taking scriptures out of context

... precisely describes what you are doing.

 

[OldRegular]

Why should we take action if man has zero responsibility in salvation? If God sovereignly does everything, what action do we need to take?

Obey God!!!!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Obey God!!!!

Is that to say God is in the habit of issuing useless commands?

 

[OldRegular]

Is that to say God is in the habit of issuing useless commands?

I never thought that He gave useless commands. I hope that you do not. I made the comment in response to the following post!

Originally Posted by InTheLight
Why should we take action if man has zero responsibility in salvation? If God sovereignly does everything, what action do we need to take?

Adam and Eve started all the trouble because they did not obey God so I would say I gave "In The Light" and other interested parties good advice. Don't you?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I never thought that He gave useless commands. I hope that you do not. I made the comment in response to the following post!

My apologies, OR. I didn't make myself clear. Should have quoted ITL also, in order to narrow the focus of my comment. In light of (no pun intended) ITL's comments, I wondered if the "obey God!" comment meant that God issued "useless" commands, given that the view of hyper-C's here is that the elect will be saved, even if against their will. Sorry for the confusion.

Adam and Eve started all the trouble because they did not obey God so I would say I gave "In The Light" and other interested parties good advice. Don't you?

Yup. Sure would. :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

Obey God!!!!

Calvinsts and DoGs admit that preaching the gospel is illogical and nonsensical in their system, and so must resort to the "we preach the gospel because God commands us to". This is the only reason they have for preaching.

It's pitiful. I mean, if you KNOW your doctrine is illogical and nonsensical and hold to it anyway, how are you going to reason with folks like this?

 

[evangelist6589]

Why should we take action if man has zero responsibility in salvation? If God sovereignly does everything, what action do we need to take?

Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility is a very debatable issues.

 

[webdog]

Obey God!!!!

That very phrase implies disobedience is an option. There is no room for obedience in determinism.

 

[evangelist6589]

Calvinsts and DoGs admit that preaching the gospel is illogical and nonsensical in their system, and so must resort to the "we preach the gospel because God commands us to". This is the only reason they have for preaching.

It's pitiful. I mean, if you KNOW your doctrine is illogical and nonsensical and hold to it anyway, how are you going to reason with folks like this?

Lord almighty..... Do you ever read any books by Calvinist or do you just make these kind of statements?

 

[evangelist6589]

That very phrase implies disobedience is an option. There is no room for obedience in determinism.

http://www.challies.com/articles/gods-sovereignty-human-responsibility-in-evangelism

 

[OldRegular]

Calvinsts and DoGs admit that preaching the gospel is illogical and nonsensical in their system, and so must resort to the "we preach the gospel because God commands us to". This is the only reason they have for preaching.

What Calvinist or DoG person on this Forum states that preaching the Gospel is "illogical and nonsensical"?????

It's pitiful. I mean, if you KNOW your doctrine is illogical and nonsensical and hold to it anyway, how are you going to reason with folks like this?

I agree Winman. Your understanding of the Doctrines of grace is pitiful, particularly since you ramble about them endlessly!

 

[OldRegular]

That very phrase implies disobedience is an option. There is no room for obedience in determinism.

Not being a determinist I would not know! But I do believe Scripture teaches that the Saints, the "true believers", should obey God.

 

[OldRegular]

In light of (no pun intended) ITL's comments, I wondered if the "obey God!" comment meant that God issued "useless" commands, given that the view of hyper-C's here is that the elect will be saved, even if against their will.

I have said on a number of occasions that I believe that God will bring His elect to Salvation in Jesus Christ. To believe otherwise would be nonsensical.

I also believe that the use of the term "Irresistible Grace" is foolish because it gives the impression that man is saved contrary to his will. I believe that term was used because the 5 points of Calvinism were in response to the 5 points of Arminianism, but it is nevertheless a foolish phrase.

The unsaved person is in rebellion against God, consciously or not. Therefore, I believe that God changes the will of every person he saves. He does this in regeneration. I have always liked the way John Dagg speaks of regeneration:

Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

 

[Inspector Javert]

Not being a determinist I would not know! But I do believe Scripture teaches that the Saints, the "true believers", should obey God.

You are a determinist.

You don't admit it to yourself or others perhaps, but you are a determinist by any objective standard and consulting any normally agreed upon definition.

 

[Inspector Javert]

I believe that term was used because the 5 points of Calvinism were in response to the 5 points of Arminianism, but it is nevertheless a foolish phrase.

It's a perfectly reasonable term, and quite accurate.

It cannot be resisted, therefore it is, by definition....."irresistible".

Whether that is because God has so providentially determined or ordered things such that no person to whom he chose to extend that grace has the will to "resist" or can possibly desire to resist or by some other means......it is the case that there is no set of circumstances wherein the object of God's grace, can possibly either resist it or choose to resist it.......
So.....it's "irresistible".

I can conquer a people by drugging them sufficiently such that they have no will......nay, even a desire to "resist", and therefore rendering my will "irresistible".

I also believe that the use of the term "Irresistible Grace" is foolish because it gives the impression that man is saved contrary to his will.

"overpowering" would be, perhaps...
or maybe "conquering"...
but not "irresistible".

Calvinists just hate words which accurately describe their beliefs
such as "determined" or "limited" atonement etc...

Soon we'll get the "Particular Atonement" speech I imagine as well.

 

[Rippon]

IJ: The terms Irresistible Grace and Limited Atonement are not helpful. They lead to misunderstanding. English-speaking Calvinists for the better part of 400 years have not used those terms. You can look high and low and not find them in any Reformed Confession.

The Particular Baptists of the 17th century called themselves that and not Limited Baptists,for instance!

Most Calvinists have,instead of saying L.A. opted for --particular redemption or definite atonement. And instead of I.G. --Effectual Calling.

 

[webdog]

http://www.challies.com/articles/gods-sovereignty-human-responsibility-in-evangelism

Not sure how that either addresses or refutes what I said.