The Sinner's Prayer

[PreachTony]

this is the part that I cringe:tear:

It is best for someone to sit down and fully explain.
How many times does a person come forward, sit on the front pew for 2 or 3 minutes while the pastor goes thur the Romans Roadmap while the congregation is singing "Just As I Am" for the third time - and they will keep singing until you have signed the card....

I've been in services before where someone goes to the altar to pray and they stay there for a long time. Who are we to tell that person to stop, or to tell them to go to the back with the pastor and talk it out? I don't know of any pastors that go through a "Romans roadmap" as you're talking about. If the service I was mentioning goes that way, and a person is praying, and they stay praying for a long time, I've seen the pastor tell the congregation that it is okay if they have to leave (as we have some elder members in our congregation who have a hard time getting about or have medications to take...). Typically, though, almost everyone stays, with many of them praying as well, for the person in the altar.

Now, I've heard some on this board act like an altar call is an heretical affront to God. I don't truly understand that position.

I remember one person saying you should send out invitations for your baptism. :type:

I know people who have told family and friends that they would be getting baptized on a certain day, but if you mean sending them out like for a birthday party, then no, that's a touch off-putting.

I've said before, I don't necessarily like WretchedTV, but this video provides an look at some interesting baptism practices:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxvaUKnEz2k

Yea I know. Whenever there is someone who doesn't like it they have some isolated anecdote to prove their point. That may happen but it is isolated and not a regular practice. The issue isn't the prayer but the poor preaching of the gospel.

One thing I've learned on this forum, Rev, is that, while we as people have only our own experiences to build a knowledge base off of, very few on this board actually want people to use their own experience to explain a point. Otherwise they write it off as an "isolated anecdote" or as "that's just your opinion."

Now you are conflating issues here. The reason I brought up the Ethiopian was not directly related to the prayer itself but to the fact that you said that moment should be private.

I don't think you'll accept my explanation, so I'm stepping away from this one. I tried to explain it, and I'm told I'm just conflating issues.

 

[Revmitchell]

One thing I've learned on this forum, Rev, is that, while we as people have only our own experiences to build a knowledge base off of, very few on this board actually want people to use their own experience to explain a point. Otherwise they write it off as an "isolated anecdote" or as "that's just your opinion."

The problem is that sometimes we try to broad brush and entire issue with isolated anecdotes as if that personal experience is the norm among everyone.

I don't think you'll accept my explanation, so I'm stepping away from this one. I tried to explain it, and I'm told I'm just conflating issues.

Well that is fine but it is on you. We were discussing two things: 1) the prayer, 2) that the salvation experience is private (according to you). Those are related but different. I was trying to understand where you got the idea that is was a private matter. God Bless

 

[PreachTony]

The problem is that sometimes we try to broad brush and entire issue with isolated anecdotes as if that personal experience is the norm among everyone.


Well that is fine but it is on you. We were discussing two things: 1) the prayer, 2) that the salvation experience is private (according to you). Those are related but different. I was trying to understand where you got the idea that is was a private matter. God Bless

Turns out I can't "step away." :smilewinkgrin:

When I say that it is a private matter I realize that I've not properly defined it. What I mean is that salvation is a matter between you and God. Yes, the confession and the events and fruits afterward are public. If it were public, in the way that I feel you're looking at it, then everyone gathered there would know the moment a person accepted Christ as their Savior. But we can't. We can see the fruits that show afterwards, but not at that moment.

I'm sure that isn't the best example, but I could probably do better in person.

 

[JonC]

I have never seen this in my 40+ years of attending Baptist churches that have had altar calls.

Nor have I.......I think's it's a theoretical situation rather than actual practice.

 

[Revmitchell]

Turns out I can't "step away." :smilewinkgrin:

When I say that it is a private matter I realize that I've not properly defined it. What I mean is that salvation is a matter between you and God. Yes, the confession and the events and fruits afterward are public. If it were public, in the way that I feel you're looking at it, then everyone gathered there would know the moment a person accepted Christ as their Savior. But we can't. We can see the fruits that show afterwards, but not at that moment.

I'm sure that isn't the best example, but I could probably do better in person.

OK, that appears different than what you originally said. Which was "it is difficult to be intimate with someone standing there telling you what to say". That statement gives the appearance that you believe it should be intimate in a way that no one else is involved. Almost as if you should go into your closet by yourself and be saved.

Yet here you seems to say that it is intimate only because we can't know the very moment someone is saved. So I am not sure I understand you.

 

[PreachTony]

OK, that appears different than what you originally said. Which was "it is difficult to be intimate with someone standing there telling you what to say". That statement gives the appearance that you believe it should be intimate in a way that no one else is involved. Almost as if you should go into your closet by yourself and be saved.

Yet here you seems to say that it is intimate only because we can't know the very moment someone is saved. So I am not sure I understand you.

No, I'm not saying you cannot be saved when someone is beside you. I honestly don't know how to explain any differently than saying your salvation is a matter between you and God. Whether you are in a church surrounded by hundreds or at home in your closet, when the Spirit convicts you of your sins and draws you to repentance, that's an issue between you and God. The preacher cannot save you. Repeating verbatim the prayer of another is not some cure-all action. Again, Paul said to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. How do you do that when the preacher is standing over you telling you to repeat after him?

Worse yet, whenever someone is, seemingly, visibly under conviction, is broken hearted with a contrite spirit, and they kneel to pray and the preacher kneels to talk to them and tells them to hold on, and then Mom kneels down to talk to them and tells them to let go. It can be utterly confusing. Repeating a prayer can do the same thing.

Again, I can explain this much better in person. Writing seems to drain so much of the intonation from my voice.

 

[go2church]

I have never met anyone who thought or taught that just saying a simple prayer was all there was to being a Christian. Even in my fundy days, there was always a "push" to see the one who prayed come to church and get baptized.

Was the follow up great? Not always but it was never, in my experience, "okay good enough, see you in heaven"

In calling for greater and greater commitment from our church members, pastors should be careful not to dismiss or denigrate commitments, small as they seem, that have already been made.

 

[Revmitchell]

Again, Paul said to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. How do you do that when the preacher is standing over you telling you to repeat after him?

Your use of Philippians 2:12 is out of context and misapplied. The purpose in giving someone a chance to repeat after someone else is:

1.) not to save them (for at this point they are already saved)
2.) to confess their belief starting with confessing to God first in prayer, then afterward the public through your testimony and Baptism.
3.) to give them a solidified moment of their salvation which helps new believers understand that now they are saved.
4.) to assist them in the confession to God as they do not yet know how to pray.

Really, it is just about giving assistance to new believers who are at the very infantile stage of their faith and relationship with God.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

"Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner."

"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

 

[Bro. Curtis]

My point being, if a person is truly looking to Jesus for forgiveness, with the understanding of who he really is, the Holy Spirit is already in them.

 

[Salty]

I have never met anyone who thought or taught that just saying a simple prayer was all there was to being a Christian. .

I have and that's why I am leery of the "get saved real quick at the alter" by someone who has no ideal of what salvation is all about.

Now on the other end, suppose you had been discipling someone for sometime, they come forward on Sun AM, to be saved - well they pretty well understand.

 

[kyredneck]

"Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner."

"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

My point being, if a person is truly looking to Jesus for forgiveness, with the understanding of who he really is, the Holy Spirit is already in them.

:thumbs:

"Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner" is the humble attitude we all should have, everyday, IMO.

 

[quantumfaith]

Tom,

I have the greatest respect for you despite the fact that we sit on different sides of the theological equation. I do not believe personally in sinners prayer as some secret incantation but I must also say that every prayer that I pray is indeed a "sinners prayer".

I really cannot add anything, but only state that the words of a heart (prayer) have meaning when we understand them and utter them with genuine intention.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

who perceives it that way?

i do.........

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Another quick thought….

The thief on the cross demonstrates that even at his weakest moment, before the victory over death, with his father forsaking him on the cross, he STILL had the power to forgive. Jesus still knows his sheep, they know his voice.

Notice also, he can't forgive his tormentors, he asks in vain for his father to, his father does not hear his prayer. (Another subject)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbs:

"Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner" is the humble attitude we all should have, everyday, IMO.

right!!!!!

 

[quantumfaith]

Another quick thought….

The thief on the cross demonstrates that even at his weakest moment, before the victory over death, with his father forsaking him on the cross, he STILL had the power to forgive. Jesus still knows his sheep, they know his voice.

Notice also, he can't forgive his tormentors, he asks in vain for his father to, his father does not hear his prayer. (Another subject)

I disagree Bro Curtis ( I know...you are surprised). I don't think that the Father "forsook" the son.

Do we know for certain that any of those present (involved) in the crucifixion never experienced life change and became a Christ follower?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I disagree Bro Curtis ( I know...you are surprised). I don't think that the Father "forsook" the son.

I think "think" is the best we can both do on that one.

Do we know for certain that any of those present (involved) in the crucifixion never experienced life change and became a Christ follower?

Well, we don't but we clearly see Christ identify one of them.

 

[quantumfaith]

I think "think" is the best we can both do on that one.


Well, we don't but we clearly see Christ identify one of them.

That is true. As for the "forsook" thing. I rely on my lifelong mentor, my long ago Prof of OT. (Dr. J.W. Lee)

His "take" on the quotation of Psalm 22 was with respect the very nature of that particular Psalm....A Psalm of victory.

BTW "thinking" is also true....and I "think" that there is much, much more that we can only "think" about.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

That is true. As for the "forsook" thing. I rely on my lifelong mentor, my long ago Prof of OT. (Dr. J.W. Lee)

His "take" on the quotation of Psalm 22 was with respect the very nature of that particular Psalm....A Psalm of victory.

Victorious over death, sure. But God leaves Christ to die. The glory Christ shows through when he is able to forgive the thief, while his father is forsaking him, and while he is at his weakest and most alone, he is still the Son of God.

BTW "thinking" is also true....and I "think" that there is much, much more that we can only "think" about.

I had a thought once, it died of lonsesomeness.