The Sinner's Prayer

[Marooncat79]

13 Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another`s feet. Jn 13

There are those that, as you say, "just do not understand why a church would not want to practice it". It seems to be a 'clear command', as you call it.

The ordinances of Christ are to be in remembrance of His death burial and resurrection ie, baptism reminds us of His resurrection and communion is to remind us of His death-shedding His blood etc.

Footwashing is a symbol of service and humility. The point is that we are to be willing to wash the feet of our brothers if so called upon, but it is about more of being a servant than an ordnance. The footwashing issue is meant to portray that Jesus was willing to do that which not even a slave of the Roman Empire was required to do (wash the feet of his master).

 

[PreachTony]

Tony-You understand that I am not necessarily espousing a 3 yr. wait right? I believe that we should spend "Some time" disciplining those who have made a profession of faith in a true manner, and that is not only through church attendance (although that is hugely important, but also in a small group setting ie, men's group etc.). This should be a time where we encourage them and go through books which would edify their knowledge of God. Books like "Concise Theology", a book on evangelism, and probably a book on "The Church" (Something that addresses baptism, communion, etc.) would be extremely useful in their progression.


I have used small books like this for yrs. (most of the ones that I use cost less than $10/ea. and we typically go through one a month), and found that the men love them and they indeed strengthen their understanding of the Word of God, and I am speaking of men who have been believers for many years here not necessarily new converts although it is also a way to disciple new converts which was the original intent in this reply.

My real point is that we need to spend time with new converts and no punt on their discipleship like we do most of the time. I am unsure of an exact time to wait here

I didn't figure you were being that literal. I completely agree that we as a church need to spend more time with young believers and do a better job of teaching them. It's a desire that has seemingly been lost by a lot of churches and believers. We need to grab hold to it again.

I have no problem with using outside sources for study, but I also think we've lost hold on the truth that the Bible is the source for us. These other books can help to build a base of knowledge, but the Bible should be the authority.

We might not agree on all things, Maroon, but it shouldn't stop us from being in fellowship.

 

[Marooncat79]

Please explain what you mean by saying "it is a means of grace" and it is "how we connect with our Savior."

I've known several people who believe that communion and baptism impart some form of saving grace, and I don't hold to that. Jesus imparts saving grace to us. Communion is done in remembrance of Him, for the covenant and testimony He delivered to us. Baptism is, as many others have put it, an outward sign of our faith.

Means of grace is another way of saying this:

The Reformed refer to the ordinary means of grace as the Word (preached primarily, but also read) and the sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper). In addition to these means of grace recognized by the Continental Reformed (Dutch, etc.), the English Reformed also included prayer as a means of grace along with the Word and Sacraments (Westminster Larger Catechism 154; Westminster Shorter Catechism 88). The means of grace are not intended to include every means by which God may edify Christians, but are the ordinary channels he has ordained for this purpose and are communicated to Christians supernaturally by the Holy Spirit.[12] For Reformed Christians divine grace is the action of God giving and Christians receiving the promise of eternal life united with Christ. The means of grace are used by God to confirm or ratify a covenant between himself and Christians. The words of the gospel and the elements of the sacraments are not merely symbols referring to the gospel, they actually bring about the reality of the gospel

Means of grace deals with the fact that the True Gospel is portrayed within the act. Reading scripture-brings about hope, comfort, and conviction of sin and is commanded in worship. Prayer reminds us of our sinfulness, and God's greatness. ETC.

I never use means of grace in a way to mean that they "add anything to our salvation", NO, they in fact comfort, sustain and confirm our salvation which is the Reformed View

 

[Marooncat79]

Good post, you make some good points.



I'm not sure where concise, explicit instructions on how to correctly baptize are found in the Bible, do you know?

Again, the Didache answers how they did it in the early church. Again, the Didache "could" be wrong since it is not a Canonical book

 

[kyredneck]

The ordinances of Christ are to be in remembrance of His death burial and resurrection ie, baptism reminds us of His resurrection and communion is to remind us of His death-shedding His blood etc.

Footwashing is a symbol of service and humility. The point is that we are to be willing to wash the feet of our brothers if so called upon, but it is about more of being a servant than an ordnance. The footwashing issue is meant to portray that Jesus was willing to do that which not even a slave of the Roman Empire was required to do (wash the feet of his master).

OK, so you say, along with a multitude of others. FYI, there's a huge blessing to be had through the act of lowering oneself and washing the saint's feet at communion time.

If ye know these things, blessed are ye if ye do them. Jn 13:17

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by kyredneck ....I'm not sure where concise, explicit instructions on how to correctly baptize are found in the Bible, do you know?

Again, the Didache answers how they did it in the early church. Again, the Didache "could" be wrong since it is not a Canonical book

Yea, I was just curious what you drew from the Bible on what it says on how to do it.

 

[Marooncat79]

I hesitate to use terminology like "teach them how to properly exposit scripture," as one man's idea of proper exposition might be different from another's, even though they hold to the same gospel. Some men teach that a preacher should never raise his voice; others that a preacher should be free to talk loudly, shout, etc.

Tony--

By exposit, I mean to set forth clearly what the Word of God proclaims ie, break it down for the people in the pew (not telling a bunch of silly stories nor irrelevant points. Sadly, it is greatly unknown to many pastors of our day). Tell them what the text is about and make practical application if/when necessary.

I would also say that we read from a total of 3 different passages each week with one of them being the sermon proper (what is actually preached upon). We alternate different books of the Bible and (reading completely through each) I usually make 3-5 comments about the passage which is read. Sometimes, it takes 2-3 weeks to read through a chapter which is ok. Feel free to hit me up on any of this stuff if you want--just inbox me and I will give you my number

Here is an example of how our worship might look--not always but close

Read Psalm 1 we read at least 1 OT and 1 NT book all the way through-either a short chapter at a time or break it up into smaller bits
Prayer asking for forgiveness and affirmation of forgiveness from God's Word
Sing a song-usually about the character and nature of God ie ascribing glory and honor to God Holy, Holy ,Holy or Lead On O King Eternal something similar
Read a Section of our Confession (we use the 1689 2nd London Baptist Confession)
Communion
Prayer of Adoration--Telling God how great and glorious and worthy that HE is without asking for anything at all
Reading 2nd Passage Sometimes from a Gospel or NT/OT depends on what book we are preaching through
Sing a song--usually about the Atonement of Jesus or Jesus proper Songs Like Fairest Lord Jesus or Nothing but the Blood of Jesus comes to mind here
Prayer for illumination for God to open our hearts to His Word
Read Sermon Passage
Sermon
Last Song: Something like The Church's One Foundation, A Mighty Fortress, or I Tim 1:17 put to music--ITs awesome man!
Final Prayer-Prayer of Supplication We pray for others here ie, those hurting oppressed etc and we always for missionaries and Christians who are being persecuted
Finale--a short chorus or Maybe Lead On O King Eternal

It takes about 1.25-1.5 hrs total

 

[Marooncat79]

I didn't figure you were being that literal. I completely agree that we as a church need to spend more time with young believers and do a better job of teaching them. It's a desire that has seemingly been lost by a lot of churches and believers. We need to grab hold to it again.

I have no problem with using outside sources for study, but I also think we've lost hold on the truth that the Bible is the source for us. These other books can help to build a base of knowledge, but the Bible should be the authority.

We might not agree on all things, Maroon, but it shouldn't stop us from being in fellowship.

I hope that we agree on a whole lot!! :thumbs:

We may agree upon more than we both realize?

 

[kyredneck]

...The early church celebrated communion every Lord's Day. I do not understand how we can be called Christians and not practice such...

You seem to place a lot of stock in what the early church did.

The early Church practiced feet washing.

... Footwashing is a symbol of service and humility.....

Symbol or no, it was actually practiced in the Bible:

And turning to the woman, he said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thy house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath wetted my feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair. Lu 7:44

well reported of for good works; if she hath brought up children, if she hath used hospitality to strangers, if she hath washed the saints` feet, if she hath relieved the afflicted, if she hath diligently followed every good work. 1 Tim 5:10

 

[Marooncat79]

Originally Posted by Marooncat79 View Post
...The early church celebrated communion every Lord's Day. I do not understand how we can be called Christians and not practice such...


You seem to place a lot of stock in what the early church did.

They were much closer to the "real thing than we are" :smilewinkgrin:

I am truly unsure how to answer this other than to say that there are some good things that we can learn and there are some things which we should avoid with good reasons for both of them,

I really am unsure how to take this comment--sorry man

Grace and peace

Bill

Romans 5:1

 

[HankD]

Oh that's my mothers AOC......they dropped that wording after Vatican 2.....the 1st one James lists is for my age bracket...... but they did beat that prayer into your brain did they not & I still remember it word for word.

Indeed, they are masters of indoctrination.

HankD

 

[Marooncat79]

Yea, I was just curious what you drew from the Bible on what it says on how to do it.

I am not trying to be combative here, but you do know that baptism comes from the New Testament Greek word "baptidzo" which means to dip, plunge or immerse correct?

I am unsure if this answers your question or not?

Grace again

Bill

 

[kyredneck]

...I really am unsure how to take this comment--sorry man...

Yea, I'm still wondering how you come off with an extreme comment like:

Originally Posted by Marooncat79 ......The early church celebrated communion every Lord's Day. I do not understand how we can be called Christians and not practice such...

....considering:

In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Cor 11:25

You derive from that any Church that doesn't practice communion each time they meet shouldn't be called Christian?

 

[Marooncat79]

Yea, I'm still wondering how you come off with an extreme comment like:



....considering:

In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Cor 11:25

You derive from that any Church that doesn't practice communion each time they meet shouldn't be called Christian?

NO!! Not at all!!

Here is what I wrote in Response #51

The early church celebrated communion every Lord's Day. I do not understand how we can be called Christians and not practice such, since it is a means of grace and how we connect with our Savior (it is not a point of contention with me, but I just do not understand why a church would not want to practice it).

I am unsure how you got that from my response. My point is why would we not want to celebrate it? It is not something that I would want to draw battle lines on, there are much more important issues: The Doctrine of God, Justification, etc.

Again, why would we not want to celebrate it? I went to churches forever that only celebrated it 2-3 times/yr.

 

[kyredneck]

... Again, why would we not want to celebrate it? I went to churches forever that only celebrated it 2-3 times/yr.

The PBs typically celebrate communion annually. It's ALWAYS a very special time. Many visitors and preachers from other churches also attend.

 

[PreachTony]

NO!! Not at all!!

Here is what I wrote in Response #51

The early church celebrated communion every Lord's Day. I do not understand how we can be called Christians and not practice such, since it is a means of grace and how we connect with our Savior (it is not a point of contention with me, but I just do not understand why a church would not want to practice it).

I am unsure how you got that from my response. My point is why would we not want to celebrate it? It is not something that I would want to draw battle lines on, there are much more important issues: The Doctrine of God, Justification, etc.

Again, why would we not want to celebrate it? I went to churches forever that only celebrated it 2-3 times/yr.

My church holds Communion twice per year, once in the Spring and once in the Fall. We don't "celebrate" it, as some people would account celebrating. Instead, we understand the solemnity and somberness of the occasion. We understand that each participant is supposed to thoroughly examine themselves in a spiritual manner before partaking in Communion.

I would rather go to a church that holds Communion twice a year but stresses the need for examination before the Lord than go to a church that holds Communion every service, never mentions the somberness of it, and acts like it's a common event.

 

[kyredneck]

Oh trust me, the actual communion service is a very somber event and self examination is certainly stressed with the PBs.

 

[Marooncat79]

would rather go to a church that holds Communion twice a year but stresses the need for examination before the Lord than go to a church that holds Communion every service, never mentions the somberness of it,

BINGO!!!
and acts like its a common event

Communion should never be treated as "Common" or ordinary

By celebrating, I mean observing

Again, it is not a hill that I would die upon

 

[Marooncat79]

Oh trust me, the actual communion service is a very somber event and self examination is certainly stressed with the PBs.

Self examination is commanded in I Corinthians 11:28

 

[percho]

The ordinances of Christ are to be in remembrance of His death burial and resurrection ie, baptism reminds us of His resurrection and communion is to remind us of His death-shedding His blood etc.

Footwashing is a symbol of service and humility. The point is that we are to be willing to wash the feet of our brothers if so called upon, but it is about more of being a servant than an ordnance. The footwashing issue is meant to portray that Jesus was willing to do that which not even a slave of the Roman Empire was required to do (wash the feet of his master).

I have always found this interesting.

are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized? Rom 6:3 YLT

Why does it not say we are also baptized to his life?