If in the alter call someone is trying to see that they get saved real quick that is a problem. I give an invitation but no one is in a hurry to see that a decision is made on the spot. There will be no announcement of anything made that same day and no one works to coerce anyone into a quick decision. At best it is a start of a conversation with them about what salvation is and how they can be sure of it.
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The Sinner's Prayer
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
If in the alter call someone is trying to see that they get saved real quick that is a problem. I give an invitation but no one is in a hurry to see that a decision is made on the spot. There will be no announcement of anything made that same day and no one works to coerce anyone into a quick decision. At best it is a start of a conversation with them about what salvation is and how they can be sure of it.
That is exactly what I am referring to.
One specific example, in VA; I was counseling a young boy about age 7 - about 3 or 4 minutes after I started talking to him, Mr. Bean came by and wanted me to fill out a card - I told him the boy did not understand salvation and thus had made no decision. Mr. Bean actually got upset that I refused to fill out a decision card.
Now for the rest of the story - I had asked this young boy why he need to be saved - he had no ideal - I then asked him if he had ever sinned - he told me he never did. He had not ideal what salvation was about.
My #1 problem with a supposed sinner's prayer us that it is found nowhere in scripture.
Where is the example of an apostle preaching such a thing?
Where does scripture ever suggest that we ask Jesus to "come into my heart" ?? Or come into my life ??
It's almost sickening to see so-called ministers peddling superstition as a gospel.
Even further, the issue gets even further confused when jack leg preachers are called on the carpet about it, then start trying to shuffle by saying it's a prayer for someone who's already saved.
So if it's supposedly for the believer, why is it being peddled to unbelievers as a means of conversion?
The SBC voted 2 or 3 years aho that it is acceptable to use in evangelism. Since when do you evangelize believers?
Sickening. The lengths people will go to in order to protect their unbiblical traditions
Where is the example of an apostle preaching such a thing?
Where does scripture ever suggest that we ask Jesus to "come into my heart" ?? Or come into my life ??
It's almost sickening to see so-called ministers peddling superstition as a gospel.
Even further, the issue gets even further confused when jack leg preachers are called on the carpet about it, then start trying to shuffle by saying it's a prayer for someone who's already saved.
So if it's supposedly for the believer, why is it being peddled to unbelievers as a means of conversion?
The SBC voted 2 or 3 years aho that it is acceptable to use in evangelism. Since when do you evangelize believers?
Sickening. The lengths people will go to in order to protect their unbiblical traditions
The closest I can think is the invitation to "drink" or to "open the door"...or perhaps even to "believe" (i.e., the interpretation of placing one's faith in something). Do you think that those suggesting that we ask Jesus to "come into our hearts" are trying to illustrate those passages...or is it something else entirely?
This is the one we were taught in "Sister's School" for First Communion.
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended thee and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend thee my God who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve with the help of thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life Amen.
Going on 70 years later and I still remember it word for word.
HankD
Oh that's my mothers AOC......they dropped that wording after Vatican 2.....the 1st one James lists is for my age bracket...... but they did beat that prayer into your brain did they not & I still remember it word for word.
PreachTony
Active Member
While others may not agree, I've always had the sense that a repeated prayer is sort of like a forced apology. I just feel like a person can impart more of their emotion and desire into a statement if the words are their own, and not something that someone else came up with.
But that's just me...
But that's just me...
I do not understand the emphasis on this issue. In scripture there is no clear command to pray a prayer in order to be saved, neither is there an example of someone who prayed a prayer in order to be saved (that I can remember).
The command is to repent (change one's mind) and believe (In Christ for the atonement of sins). I do see in scripture that we are to ask for God's forgiveness (It's seen in the Lord's Prayer in Matthew, where Jesus said that we are to pray daily -the phrase "forgive us our debts/sins/trespasses, as we forgive others", but that is not a prayer of salvation and is NOT synonymous with asking Jesus into our hearts which is very unbiblical).
John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Saducees to "bring forth fruit...". The bottom line is that John would not baptize them due to their lack of evidence of repentance and turning to God. I have often considered this in our day and in the baptism of children (which I am more against the older I become). In fact, the 2nd century Christians would not baptize anyone unless they had been faithful in the assembly for at least 3 yrs (I am not sure that is Biblical either, but I do think that there should be a testing time).
The command is to repent (change one's mind) and believe (In Christ for the atonement of sins). I do see in scripture that we are to ask for God's forgiveness (It's seen in the Lord's Prayer in Matthew, where Jesus said that we are to pray daily -the phrase "forgive us our debts/sins/trespasses, as we forgive others", but that is not a prayer of salvation and is NOT synonymous with asking Jesus into our hearts which is very unbiblical).
John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Saducees to "bring forth fruit...". The bottom line is that John would not baptize them due to their lack of evidence of repentance and turning to God. I have often considered this in our day and in the baptism of children (which I am more against the older I become). In fact, the 2nd century Christians would not baptize anyone unless they had been faithful in the assembly for at least 3 yrs (I am not sure that is Biblical either, but I do think that there should be a testing time).
Good post, you make some good points.
I'm not sure where concise, explicit instructions on how to correctly baptize are found in the Bible, do you know?
PreachTony
Active Member
There is no "clear command" for several things that we do. There is no clear command to hold a communion service every day but some churches do. Others hold it monthly, quarterly, bi-annually or even annually. Again, no clear command. There is no "clear command" on how a person is to be baptized. I believe in full immersion baptism, but some hold to a form of sprinkling or pouring. There is no "clear command" requiring a pastor to hold a doctorate from a seminary, but some churches require it.
Some people think of praying at the time they were saved as being their first real talk with God. I was saved during a prayer. I felt the convicting power of God after having heard the preached word. I didn't know anything else to do other than just pray and talk to God. That's my experience. Some people completely discount personal experiences, but at the end of the day that's how we build a base of knowledge. Do you think someone who was saved during their prayer has a lesser experience than someone who just "changed their mind?"
Out of curiosity, Maroon, on the statement that "2nd century Christians would not baptize anyone unless they had been faithful in the assembly for at least 3 yrs," what is your source? I've never heard this before.
I agree with your sentiment when talking about infant baptism, but I baptizing children is a bit different. I was baptized at age ten, approximately one month after confessing publicly my salvation. The way my church did things was we had VBS in June and a summer revival in July. For those two months we held baptizing on the Sunday morning following the revival. The way we saw it, if you professed faith in Jesus Christ you were eligible for baptism, just as the Ethiopian was. Philip didn't tell the Ethiopian to come back to him after three years and then he could be baptized.
There is no "clear command" for several things that we do. There is no clear command to hold a communion service every day but some churches do. Others hold it monthly, quarterly, bi-annually or even annually. Again, no clear command. There is no "clear command" on how a person is to be baptized. I believe in full immersion baptism, but some hold to a form of sprinkling or pouring. There is no "clear command" requiring a pastor to hold a doctorate from a seminary, but some churches require it.
The early church celebrated communion every Lord's Day. I do not understand how we can be called Christians and not practice such, since it is a means of grace and how we connect with our Savior (it is not a point of contention with me, but I just do not understand why a church would not want to practice it).
There is a clear command on how a person is to be baptized. John the Baptist was baptizing by some type immersion --See John 3:23 "there was much water there".
The education degree is of indifference. Scripture makes clear that a Minister of the Gospel should be well versed in scripture. I do think that those who claim a call to ministry should spend serious time studying in the Word of God with men who are able to teach them how to properly exposit scripture-and Yes, I believe that the modern churches fall waaaaaay short in this area.
The early church celebrated communion every Lord's Day. I do not understand how we can be called Christians and not practice such, since it is a means of grace and how we connect with our Savior (it is not a point of contention with me, but I just do not understand why a church would not want to practice it).
There is a clear command on how a person is to be baptized. John the Baptist was baptizing by some type immersion --See John 3:23 "there was much water there".
The education degree is of indifference. Scripture makes clear that a Minister of the Gospel should be well versed in scripture. I do think that those who claim a call to ministry should spend serious time studying in the Word of God with men who are able to teach them how to properly exposit scripture-and Yes, I believe that the modern churches fall waaaaaay short in this area.
Quote:
.... In fact, the 2nd century Christians would not baptize anyone unless they had been faithful in the assembly for at least 3 yrs (I am not sure that is Biblical either.....
I'm not sure where concise, explicit instructions on how to correctly baptize are found in the Bible, do you know?
This is found in a book called the "Didache" which is an early noncanonical book which was written within the 1st 50-70 yrs. or so of Christianity. While uninspired like the Bible, it does give us a glimpse into early Christianity and is very beneficial for us in our day.
.... In fact, the 2nd century Christians would not baptize anyone unless they had been faithful in the assembly for at least 3 yrs (I am not sure that is Biblical either.....
I'm not sure where concise, explicit instructions on how to correctly baptize are found in the Bible, do you know?
This is found in a book called the "Didache" which is an early noncanonical book which was written within the 1st 50-70 yrs. or so of Christianity. While uninspired like the Bible, it does give us a glimpse into early Christianity and is very beneficial for us in our day.
Some people think of praying at the time they were saved as being their first real talk with God. I was saved during a prayer. I felt the convicting power of God after having heard the preached word. I didn't know anything else to do other than just pray and talk to God. That's my experience. Some people completely discount personal experiences, but at the end of the day that's how we build a base of knowledge. Do you think someone who was saved during their prayer has a lesser experience than someone who just "changed their mind?"
Experience never supersedes the Word of God --EVER!! Again, scripture never tells us to pray and ask Jesus into our heart, nor is there an example in scripture.
I would never, ever say that you were not saved at that point. My point is that before we can call upon the name of the Lord that our hearts must already be changed/regenerated (yes, we are unable to call out to God unless he changes our hearts)--Romans 10:14. "how can they call on Him whom they have not believed?". This verse indicates that regeneration takes place before we are conscious of it, and in fact it actually drives us to Christ and to call out to Him for salvation. Yes, there is a punctiliar point in time in which our hearts are changed and we naturally believe in Christ, and when that changes takes place, we ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS call out to Him.
Experience never supersedes the Word of God --EVER!! Again, scripture never tells us to pray and ask Jesus into our heart, nor is there an example in scripture.
I would never, ever say that you were not saved at that point. My point is that before we can call upon the name of the Lord that our hearts must already be changed/regenerated (yes, we are unable to call out to God unless he changes our hearts)--Romans 10:14. "how can they call on Him whom they have not believed?". This verse indicates that regeneration takes place before we are conscious of it, and in fact it actually drives us to Christ and to call out to Him for salvation. Yes, there is a punctiliar point in time in which our hearts are changed and we naturally believe in Christ, and when that changes takes place, we ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS call out to Him.
13 Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another`s feet. Jn 13
There are those that, as you say, "just do not understand why a church would not want to practice it". It seems to be a 'clear command', as you call it.
PreachTony
Active Member
Please explain what you mean by saying "it is a means of grace" and it is "how we connect with our Savior."
I've known several people who believe that communion and baptism impart some form of saving grace, and I don't hold to that. Jesus imparts saving grace to us. Communion is done in remembrance of Him, for the covenant and testimony He delivered to us. Baptism is, as many others have put it, an outward sign of our faith.
John 3:22-23 said:
I'm curious how you see a "clear command" for immersion baptism in this verse. All it says is that there was "much water." It's just describing the area. Again, I agree that immersion baptism is the best way, but I don't see it as a "clear command" in the scripture you provided.
I agree that a man called into the ministry should study, and he should have like-minded believers around him, as they can edify each other through study of the word. I hesitate to use terminology like "teach them how to properly exposit scripture," as one man's idea of proper exposition might be different from another's, even though they hold to the same gospel. Some men teach that a preacher should never raise his voice; others that a preacher should be free to talk loudly, shout, etc. Some teach that a preacher should never move from the pulpit; others that he should move around or walk up the aisle. Some teach that only certain themes should be used, as you don't want to scare anyone; others teach that no part of the scripture should be off-limits to a preacher. Some men teach that a sermon ought to be written out, word for word, almost like a play, with stage directions thrown in; others teach that you should have read and studied the scripture, but that God through the Spirit will provide you with the words to say. The point being that men will often allow their corruptible nature to seep into their teaching. The advice of man should be taken cautiously and studied out in the light of the Spirit.
Out of curiosity, Maroon, on the statement that "2nd century Christians would not baptize anyone unless they had been faithful in the assembly for at least 3 yrs," what is your source? I've never heard this before.
I am in the process of finding out again. It is not where I thought it was. I will reply asap. Give me a day or so
Thanks and grace
I am in the process of finding out again. It is not where I thought it was. I will reply asap. Give me a day or so
Thanks and grace
PreachTony
Active Member
Take your time. No rush. Thank you for actually providing a source.
No. However, if I wanted to find concise, explicit instructions on how to correctly build an ark like Noah built, or the one that Moses built, or how any of the myriad of ceremonial practices of the old covenant were performed, it's there. None that I know of for Christian baptism though.
I agree with your sentiment when talking about infant baptism, but I baptizing children is a bit different. I was baptized at age ten, approximately one month after confessing publicly my salvation. The way my church did things was we had VBS in June and a summer revival in July. For those two months we held baptizing on the Sunday morning following the revival. The way we saw it, if you professed faith in Jesus Christ you were eligible for baptism, just as the Ethiopian was. Philip didn't tell the Ethiopian to come back to him after three years and then he could be baptized
Yes, Children can definitely become believers at young ages. In fact, my youngest daughter gave a credible profession of faith at 4 yrs. old, and still lives a very Godly life. IMO, we Baptists are waaaaaay to quick to baptize those who are not ready and for what purpose? Is baptism necessary for salvation? I think not! We are quick to jump on the Church of Christ, yet we almost default to the same exact position that they take, yet we white wash it.
Again, I think that we should observe the profession of a so-called new convert and feel very comfortable that they are truly following Christ. I have some serious doubts that faaaaaar to many children are baptized waaaaay to early--just look at what is going on in our Churches. We baptize someone and they never show back up again-ever! Look at how many young children we baptize, yet they fall away as teenagers or whenever which is a sad estate as to where the church is as a whole (Yes, I believe in church discipline-see Matthew 18 for the purposes of restoration those who have fallen into grievous sin. Most Baptist Churches need to go back to Church discipline especially for those who have fallen away and never attend services, nor support the local ministry of their professed Church). We in fact harden the hearts of those who are not truly ready for baptism and do them no favors by baptizing prematurely and ultimately dishonor the name of God in doing so.
I do not necessarily like VBS though I do not hate it. My remembrances are pledge allegiance to the American Flag (totally unnecessary and certainly confuses the issue. If we were in Iran, should we pledge allegiance to the flag of Iran as Christians? or North Korea? No, keep the things of God Holy unto the Lord and separate). I also have problems pledging allegiance to the so called Christian Flag (this is an abomination to Muslims and there is actually no such thing as a "Christian Flag". The pledge to the Bible is Borderline idolatrous as well, but at least it is the Word of God and I have much less problem with it, but it does border on Bibliolatry.
Again, we have Bible School for 5 days and think that we have done well? Really? And what is our standard? Should we not always teach the Word in season and out of season? No, I am not against it, I am rethinking and reinterpreting what we SHOULD be doing here. Example: Why does a so-called Minister not a daily open prayer time/devotional around lunch for the community at large to come and openly pray and read scripture during the week? One of the greatest "revivals" ever started this way --It is called the Layman's Revival which happened in the 1850's.
As far as the Ethiopian Eunuch, you do understand that He was a God Fearing man who accepted the OT as coming from God and actually went back and founded the Church in Ethiopia right (It is a historical fact)? My point is that he was not a fresh convert here. He had a foundation in the OT (He was reading from Isaiah-right?). We do not well, by taking too much theology from ACTS. It was a special and unique time where the church of Christ was getting established and God used certain people and unusual circumstances to accomplish his purposes.
Yes, Children can definitely become believers at young ages. In fact, my youngest daughter gave a credible profession of faith at 4 yrs. old, and still lives a very Godly life. IMO, we Baptists are waaaaaay to quick to baptize those who are not ready and for what purpose? Is baptism necessary for salvation? I think not! We are quick to jump on the Church of Christ, yet we almost default to the same exact position that they take, yet we white wash it.
Again, I think that we should observe the profession of a so-called new convert and feel very comfortable that they are truly following Christ. I have some serious doubts that faaaaaar to many children are baptized waaaaay to early--just look at what is going on in our Churches. We baptize someone and they never show back up again-ever! Look at how many young children we baptize, yet they fall away as teenagers or whenever which is a sad estate as to where the church is as a whole (Yes, I believe in church discipline-see Matthew 18 for the purposes of restoration those who have fallen into grievous sin. Most Baptist Churches need to go back to Church discipline especially for those who have fallen away and never attend services, nor support the local ministry of their professed Church). We in fact harden the hearts of those who are not truly ready for baptism and do them no favors by baptizing prematurely and ultimately dishonor the name of God in doing so.
I do not necessarily like VBS though I do not hate it. My remembrances are pledge allegiance to the American Flag (totally unnecessary and certainly confuses the issue. If we were in Iran, should we pledge allegiance to the flag of Iran as Christians? or North Korea? No, keep the things of God Holy unto the Lord and separate). I also have problems pledging allegiance to the so called Christian Flag (this is an abomination to Muslims and there is actually no such thing as a "Christian Flag". The pledge to the Bible is Borderline idolatrous as well, but at least it is the Word of God and I have much less problem with it, but it does border on Bibliolatry.
Again, we have Bible School for 5 days and think that we have done well? Really? And what is our standard? Should we not always teach the Word in season and out of season? No, I am not against it, I am rethinking and reinterpreting what we SHOULD be doing here. Example: Why does a so-called Minister not a daily open prayer time/devotional around lunch for the community at large to come and openly pray and read scripture during the week? One of the greatest "revivals" ever started this way --It is called the Layman's Revival which happened in the 1850's.
As far as the Ethiopian Eunuch, you do understand that He was a God Fearing man who accepted the OT as coming from God and actually went back and founded the Church in Ethiopia right (It is a historical fact)? My point is that he was not a fresh convert here. He had a foundation in the OT (He was reading from Isaiah-right?). We do not well, by taking too much theology from ACTS. It was a special and unique time where the church of Christ was getting established and God used certain people and unusual circumstances to accomplish his purposes.
Tony-You understand that I am not necessarily espousing a 3 yr. wait right? I believe that we should spend "Some time" disciplining those who have made a profession of faith in a true manner, and that is not only through church attendance (although that is hugely important, but also in a small group setting ie, men's group etc.). This should be a time where we encourage them and go through books which would edify their knowledge of God. Books like "Concise Theology", a book on evangelism, and probably a book on "The Church" (Something that addresses baptism, communion, etc.) would be extremely useful in their progression.
I have used small books like this for yrs. (most of the ones that I use cost less than $10/ea. and we typically go through one a month), and found that the men love them and they indeed strengthen their understanding of the Word of God, and I am speaking of men who have been believers for many years here not necessarily new converts although it is also a way to disciple new converts which was the original intent in this reply.
My real point is that we need to spend time with new converts and no punt on their discipleship like we do most of the time. I am unsure of an exact time to wait here