The Soul Who Sins Shall Die

[Jarthur001]

We are not Christ. I don't care for you comparing man to Christ. No one could have done what the Lord did and that was to take the sins of others. The rest of us will stand before God for ourselves and not another.

BBob,

Bob,

I am not Christ, but Christ is man. Just as He is God.

I quote the Bible and it stands on truth. If Christ were not 100% man as well as 100% God and if He did not die on the cross, salvation did not happen. You stand only alone if you have not Christ. I will not stand just by myself before God, Christ will stand for me and say..."I took the guilt Father of this man called James".

"...we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

If I stand for myself, I go to hell. Christ took my guilt and with Him I am made whole.

If it were not so..."The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself"


But he have not even made it to the reason why this is true. If you cannot see that Christ can take our place, you will not see why he has. There is a legal reason found in the Bible as to why Christ can do this.

 

[Amy.G]

James, in all honesty, I cannot figure out your point. It seems elementary to me that the EZ. passage is simply a teaching from God that each individual is accountable for his/her own sin. I do think the passage refers to physical death in context, that the person who sinned would be put to death (as punishment for the offender and an example to others in the nation of Israel). But the principle is the same. God holds the sinner accountable for his sins and his sins only.

In the case of Christ, He did not sin. But He chose, of His own free will, out of love, to bear the penalty for our sins. He did not bear the penalty of His own sins. It is written all throughout the Bible that He bore the penalty for our sins.

I do not know what you mean by the "legal" reason that Christ was able to take our punishment.

 

[webdog]

5 “If a man is righteous and does what is just and right— 6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, 7 does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 8 does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, 9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.

I believe this qualifies the passage in question. Clearly righteousness (and a lack of) is a matter of spiritual life and death, not physical. It is appointed unto all of us ONCE to die as it is...without our personal sin as a factor(the soul that sins...). This is the curse ingrained on our DNA...death.

As Amy stated, it is a passage about personal accountability...but it is dealing with spiritual life and death as well as the requirements of the Law.

 

[Jarthur001]

James, in all honesty, I cannot figure out your point. It seems elementary to me that the EZ. passage is simply a teaching from God that each individual is accountable for his/her own sin. I do think the passage refers to physical death in context, that the person who sinned would be put to death (as punishment for the offender and an example to others in the nation of Israel). But the principle is the same. God holds the sinner accountable for his sins and his sins only.

In the case of Christ, He did not sin. But He chose, of His own free will, out of love, to bear the penalty for our sins. He did not bear the penalty of His own sins. It is written all throughout the Bible that He bore the penalty for our sins.

I do not know what you mean by the "legal" reason that Christ was able to take our punishment.

I'll be back later and get to the legal thing. I hope this brings it all together. We shall see.

I'm off to build a wall.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

I am not Christ, but Christ is man. Just as He is God.

I quote the Bible and it stands on truth. If Christ were not 100% man as well as 100% God and if He did not die on the cross, salvation did not happen. You stand only alone if you have not Christ. I will not stand just by myself before God, Christ will stand for me and say..."I took the guilt Father of this man called James".

"...we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

If I stand for myself, I go to hell. Christ took my guilt and with Him I am made whole.

If it were not so..."The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself"


But he have not even made it to the reason why this is true. If you cannot see that Christ can take our place, you will not see why he has. There is a legal reason found in the Bible as to why Christ can do this.

But Jesus died as an "offering". He said you take not my life, but I lay it down.
Mankind dies physically, because it was appointed for us to die. It was not appointed for Christ to die, for he laid down his life. We don't lay ours down and if we did, it would accomplish nothing. He was a man, but he was pure and we are not. Big difference. He only took a body of flesh, so He could lay down His life. He was not appointed to die as we are. He is God, and if he had not of laid His life down, He would of lived on and on.
You comparison, just does not work James. I am sorry, but it is full of holes.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

You comparison, just does not work James. I am sorry, but it is full of holes.

Like he said, he's off to build a wall. :laugh:

I can't see the point either but often if I rid myself of these "demons" I can see more clearly so -- let's humor him for now, eh?

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Like he said, he's off to build a wall. :laugh:

I can't see the point either but often if I rid myself of these "demons" I can see more clearly so -- let's humor him for now, eh?

skypair

No need to humor me, you need not post if you wish.

 

[Jarthur001]

James, in all honesty, I cannot figure out your point. It seems elementary to me that the EZ. passage is simply a teaching from God that each individual is accountable for his/her own sin. I do think the passage refers to physical death in context, that the person who sinned would be put to death (as punishment for the offender and an example to others in the nation of Israel). But the principle is the same. God holds the sinner accountable for his sins and his sins only.

In the case of Christ, He did not sin. But He chose, of His own free will, out of love, to bear the penalty for our sins. He did not bear the penalty of His own sins. It is written all throughout the Bible that He bore the penalty for our sins.

I do not know what you mean by the "legal" reason that Christ was able to take our punishment.

1st let me address one more thing.

Many use this passage as proof that a man must sin, in order to be guilty. The work of Christ will not allow it.

Let me show you what I mean. If this be spiritual death in this passage, this would also mean (going by this passage) that Gods word would demand Christ died the same death that is demanded in this text, and that is a spiritual death on the cross.

WHY? Because he really really really took my sins, and died for my sins.

This means he did die for the guilt of my sins...yes guilt, and when I was replaced by Christ, the payment for that guilt had to be made by Christ. Christ did that on the cross.

Anyone willing to say that Christ died spiritual on the cross? My guess is NO.

If it means the body will die, then the passage works, for Christ body did die. This death of Christ body, not a spiritual death PAID the price of guilt for this was what was demanded by God.

Thus....this verse

No way around it folks. That seals it shut.

However there is another matter I said I would post..

That is coming next.

 

[Jarthur001]

The last post addressed the 1st time the phrase is seen in the passage. However there is another one.

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself

This one may seem to be very hard for me to over come, but I feel I can.

The reason.....

THE FEDERAL HEADSHIP OF ADAM
THE FEDERAL HEADSHIP OF THE LAST ADAM

 

[Brother Bob]

1st let me address one more thing.

Many use this passage as proof that a man must sin, in order to be guilty. The work of Christ will not allow it.

Let me show you what I mean. If this be spiritual death in this passage, this would also mean (going by this passage) that Gods word would demand Christ died the same death that is demanded in this text, and that is a spiritual death on the cross.

If Christ's physical death, was enough to satisfy God for our spiritual death and physical death, who are we to question God about the sacrifice???

WHY? Because he really really really took my sins, and died for my sins.

This means he did die for the guilt of my sins...yes guilt, and when I was replaced by Christ, the payment for that guilt had to be made by Christ. Christ did that on the cross.

Anyone willing to say that Christ died spiritual on the cross? My guess is NO.

If it means the body will die, then the passage works, for Christ body did die. This death of Christ body, not a spiritual death PAID the price of guilt for this was what was demanded by God.

Thus....this verse

No way around it folks. That seals it shut.

However there is another matter I said I would post..

That is coming next.

If it means his physical death was enough sacrifice to satisfy God for our spiritual death and physical death, who are we to question God?? Are you leading into the soul be saved but the body be lost James??


BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

If Christ's physical death, was enough to satisfy God for our spiritual death and physical death, who are we to question God about the sacrifice???


BBob,

That's just it Bob, my view works. With the other view one must change the Bible to make it work. I don't question...I believe.

Are you leading into the soul be saved but the body be lost James??

I never have heard of this view, so no.

 

[skypair]

Anyone willing to say that Christ died spiritual on the cross? My guess is NO.

Absolutely YES! That is what we have been trying to say. "Spiritual death" is separation from God. Did Jesus say or did He not say, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" Mt 27:46

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Absolutely YES! That is what we have been trying to say. "Spiritual death" is separation from God. Did Jesus say or did He not say, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" Mt 27:46

skypair

No, I don't even believe we die Spiritual at death (Christians), why would I believe His spirit died.

Father, I commend my Spirit unto thy hands.

That does not change anything though James, His body was sufficient to pay for our sins, both soul and body.


BBob,

 

[skypair]

No, I don't even believe we die Spiritual at death (Christians), why would I believe His spirit died.

That is merely you redefining the biblical concept, Bob. Clearly, the soul never dies nor does the spirit. Nor do they "sleep." Spiritual deadness means disconnection from the life that is in God -- Father, Son, and Spirit.

But further, to take away any aspect of His "substitutionary atonement" is to deny the whole thing, bro.

Like I said, Jesus felt the "spiritual deadness" that every man does who sins when He Himself was separated from God and awaited God restoration, the resurrection of His soul and spirit and body. Ergo, "Father, I commend my Spirit unto thy hands."

Dr Rogers did a very good sermon on this showing 5 features of hell that spiritual separation causes: 1) thirst, 2) darkness, 3) isolation from others, 4) pain, and 5) separation from God -- and He experienced them all on the cross.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

That is merely you redefining the biblical concept, Bob. Clearly, the soul never dies nor does the spirit. Nor do they "sleep." Spiritual deadness means disconnection from the life that is in God -- Father, Son, and Spirit.

But further, to take away any aspect of His "substitutionary atonement" is to deny the whole thing, bro.

Like I said, Jesus felt the "spiritual deadness" that every man does who sins when He Himself was separated from God and awaited God restoration, the resurrection of His soul and spirit and body. Ergo, "Father, I commend my Spirit unto thy hands."

Dr Rogers did a very good sermon on this showing 5 features of hell that spiritual separation causes: 1) thirst, 2) darkness, 3) isolation from others, 4) pain, and 5) separation from God -- and He experienced them all on the cross.

skypair

I will agree He said "Father why has thou forsaken me".

BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

That is merely you redefining the biblical concept, Bob. Clearly, the soul never dies nor does the spirit. Nor do they "sleep." Spiritual deadness means disconnection from the life that is in God -- Father, Son, and Spirit.

But further, to take away any aspect of His "substitutionary atonement" is to deny the whole thing, bro.

Like I said, Jesus felt the "spiritual deadness" that every man does who sins when He Himself was separated from God and awaited God restoration, the resurrection of His soul and spirit and body. Ergo, "Father, I commend my Spirit unto thy hands."

Dr Rogers did a very good sermon on this showing 5 features of hell that spiritual separation causes: 1) thirst, 2) darkness, 3) isolation from others, 4) pain, and 5) separation from God -- and He experienced them all on the cross.

skypair

Dr who?

 

[Jarthur001]

Absolutely YES! That is what we have been trying to say. "Spiritual death" is separation from God. Did Jesus say or did He not say, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" Mt 27:46

skypair

you have got to be kidding me. You think Christ died spiritually?

unreal:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:


Do other freewillers believe this as well? lets see how many will sign on to this view. My guess is they will overlook it and say nothing. We shall see.

 

[webdog]

you have got to be kidding me. You think Christ died spiritual?

unreal:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:


Do other freewillers believe this as well? lets see how many will sign on to this view. My guess is they will overlook it and say nothing. We shall see.

I don't agree that Christ died spiritually. Spiritual death (like physical death) is PERMANENT separation. Forsakeness is temporary abandonment. We know it to be temporary based on prophecy and the literal fact He was raised on the third day, and by Jesus saying "Father, into Your hand I commit My Spirit". It was not a permanent separation.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't agree that Christ died spiritually. Spiritual death (like physical death) is PERMANENT separation. Forsakeness is temporary abandonment. We know it to be temporary based on prophecy and the literal fact He was raised on the third day, and by Jesus saying "Father, into Your hand I commit My Spirit". It was not a permanent separation.

If spiritual death is permanent, then we are in a hopeless situation. Whether we believe we are born spiritually dead or it happens when we sin, if it's permanent, we cannot be born again. It's only permanent if you die that state.

 

[Brother Bob]

If spiritual death is permanent, then we are in a hopeless situation. Whether we believe we are born spiritually dead or it happens when we sin, if it's permanent, we cannot be born again. It's only permanent if you die that state.

The Father only forsake Him long enough for Him to die.

At least, Jesus felt that His Father had forsaken Him. I don't know if Jesus could have died, if God had not forsaken Him long enough for Him to die.

No it was never permanent. If Spiritual death was permanent, then when we sinned we were gonners forever.

I do not believe that Jesus's soul died, He never sinned.

BBob,