The Soul Who Sins Shall Die

[Amy.G]

The Father only forsake Him long enough for Him to die.

At least, Jesus felt that His Father had forsaken Him. I don't know if Jesus could have died, if God had not forsaken Him long enough for Him to die.

No it was never permanent. If Spiritual death was permanent, then when we sinned we were gonners forever.

BBob,

That was my point. :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

If spiritual death is permanent, then we are in a hopeless situation. Whether we believe we are born spiritually dead or it happens when we sin, if it's permanent, we cannot be born again. It's only permanent if you die that state.

Ah...but Jesus can resurrect the dead. If Jesus were spiritually dead, He could not resurrect Himself or us. You are correct, spiritual death is a hopeless state...but Christ overcame that state for us.

If spiritual death is NOT permanent...there is always hope for those who are in hell. Christ gained victory over death.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ah...but Jesus can resurrect the dead. If Jesus were spiritually dead, He could not resurrect Himself or us. You are correct, spiritual death is a hopeless state...but Christ overcame that state for us.

If spiritual death is NOT permanent...there is always hope for those who are in hell. Christ gained victory over death.

What kind of Spiritual death we talking about here.

1. separation from God.

2. Actually dead, as in dead.

 

[webdog]

What kind of Spiritual death we talking about here.

1. separation from God.

2. Actually dead, as in dead.

Maybe James can answer that one. I'm assuming he meant spiritual death (separation).

 

[Amy.G]

Ah...but Jesus can resurrect the dead. If Jesus were spiritually dead, He could not resurrect Himself or us. You are correct, spiritual death is a hopeless state...but Christ overcame that state for us.

If spiritual death is NOT permanent...there is always hope for those who are in hell. Christ gained victory over death.

That's why I said that once you die you will stay spiritually dead (separated from God).

I will admit that I don't fully understand what Jesus meant by "why have you forsaken me". And yes, thanks to Christ, we don't have to stay "dead". I guess you could say that being born again is also being resurrected from the dead (in the spirit). Hmm. Never thought of that before. What do you think?

 

[Brother Bob]

That's why I said that once you die you will stay spiritually dead (separated from God).

I will admit that I don't fully understand what Jesus meant by "why have you forsaken me". And yes, thanks to Christ, we don't have to stay "dead". I guess you could say that being born again is also being resurrected from the dead (in the spirit). Hmm. Never thought of that before. What do you think?

It is what I have preached for over thirty years.

BBob,

 

[webdog]

That's why I said that once you die you will stay spiritually dead (separated from God).

I will admit that I don't fully understand what Jesus meant by "why have you forsaken me". And yes, thanks to Christ, we don't have to stay "dead". I guess you could say that being born again is also being resurrected from the dead (in the spirit). Hmm. Never thought of that before. What do you think?

Physical death is permanent without Christ, is it not? Spiritual death is no different. Without Christ calling Lazarus out of the tomb, his death would have remained. Left to ourselves apart from Christ, our spiritual death is a permanent thing. It takes the miraculous act of regeneration to give us spiritual life.

I believe Christ was forsaken by the Father, or else He would not have said He was. Sin has no place in God's presence, and Christ was the scapegoat that had all of the sins of mankind transferred to Him. No place is being forsaken necessarily a permanent thing like death.

 

[Amy.G]

It is what I have preached for over thirty years.

BBob,

It only took me 49 years to figure it out. :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Physical death is permanent without Christ, is it not? Spiritual death is no different. Without Christ calling Lazarus out of the tomb, his death would have remained. Left to ourselves apart from Christ, our spiritual death is a permanent thing. It takes the miraculous act of regeneration to give us spiritual life.

Absolutely without Christ we are permantly dead. But you said that spiritual death was permanant. I guess I misunderstood you.

 

[webdog]

Absolutely without Christ we are permantly dead. But you said that spiritual death was permanant. I guess I misunderstood you.

Spiritual death is permanent...without Christ Hope that clears it up.

If Christ died spiritually...there is no resurrection either physically or spiritually.

 

[Amy.G]

Spiritual death is permanent...without Christ Hope that clears it up.

If Christ died spiritually...there is no resurrection either physically or spiritually.

Yes. :laugh: I'm all cleared up.

What did Christ mean though when He said "why have You forsaken Me"? What did it mean for Christ to be forsaken by God? That is a hard verse for me.

 

[JustChristian]

you have got to be kidding me. You think Christ died spiritually?

unreal:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:


Do other freewillers believe this as well? lets see how many will sign on to this view. My guess is they will overlook it and say nothing. We shall see.

What does this have to do with freewill?

 

[Marcia]

Yes. :laugh: I'm all cleared up.

What did Christ mean though when He said "why have You forsaken Me"? What did it mean for Christ to be forsaken by God? That is a hard verse for me.

That's hard for me, too, Amy. But for sure I do not believe that Jesus died spiritually.

I've heard some say that Jesus said this when he felt the weight of the evil of the sins on him and at that moment, the Father could not look at Him. But I don't know. Jesus was also quoting scripture, so it was a fulfillment of that.

I think it's one of those things that we can't fully comprehend because it has to do with the nature of God, something we can know some things about and about which we can apprehend other things, but which also is a mystery in many respects. I am content to see it that way.

 

[skypair]

No, I don't even believe we die Spiritual at death (Christians),...

That's right! WE don't because we can NEVER be separated from the love of God in Christ."

...why would I believe His spirit died.

"Substitutionaly atonement," Bob. We don't die again spiritually because we died with Christ spiritually. Being spiritually dead is the intersection of our life with Jesus'. He took our sin/death and then our separation so that we would never be separated again from God.

What you appear to have a problem with is understanding what "spiritual death" means. "Spiritual death" does NOT mean spiritual non-existence. We know this by understanding sheol and the lake of fire. Souls and spirits still exist there, right?

skypair

 

[skypair]

I don't agree that Christ died spiritually. Spiritual death (like physical death) is PERMANENT separation.

No it's not! "The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die" does NOT mean that it cannot be restored by God!

It was not a permanent separation.

Of course it wasn't! Of course "forsaken" suggests a temporary state of affairs. But "spiritual death" does NOT mean permanent separation, Web. It couldn't else none of us could be saved!

skypair

 

[skypair]

If Jesus were spiritually dead, He could not resurrect Himself or us.

And you assume Christ resurrected Himself.

If spiritual death is NOT permanent...there is always hope for those who are in hell. Christ gained victory over death.

You're leaving something out, web. You're forgetting the "spiritual death" is ONLY hopeless after PHYSICAL death.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

That's right! WE don't because we can NEVER be separated from the love of God in Christ."

"Substitutionaly atonement," Bob. We don't die again spiritually because we died with Christ spiritually. Being spiritually dead is the intersection of our life with Jesus'. He took our sin/death and then our separation so that we would never be separated again from God.

What you appear to have a problem with is understanding what "spiritual death" means. "Spiritual death" does NOT mean spiritual non-existence. We know this by understanding sheol and the lake of fire. Souls and spirits still exist there, right?

I don't have a problem, I said that Jesus said "Father why hast thou forsaken me". I think God turned away long enough for Him to die physically.

skypair

BBob,.................

 

[skypair]

I guess you could say that being born again is also being resurrected from the dead (in the spirit). Hmm. Never thought of that before. What do you think?

Absolutely!!! I have been trying to say that for months now!! 1Cor 15:29 -- What are you baptized in your own dead body for if the dead body rises not???? Is it to be "dead" the rest of your life?? What came up out of the water was, symbolic of your salvation, a new person!

"35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest [in baptism], thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body ["new creation"] as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."

skypair

 

[skypair]

If Christ died spiritually...there is no resurrection either physically or spiritually.

What you are saying is "If Christ [REMAINED] dead spiritually..." That I would agree with. But God restored Him as He also did Adam.

skypair

 

[skypair]

What did it mean for Christ to be forsaken by God? That is a hard verse for me.

God is too pure to behold sin and Jesus was "realizing," or at least showing us this.

It is like my brother when he would disobey my father. He could tell right away that he had lost my father's blessing even before my father knew it.

The "spiritually dead? realize they are not under God's blessings anymore but subject to His wrath. "Forsakeness" and "separation" are awful temporary states but an even worse permanent one!

skypair