The Soul

[steaver]

"The Spiritual Man" by Watchman Nee delves into this topic. I have the book but haven't read it yet. Seems like I have an ever growing list of books in that category but I digress. You might want to check it out.

While Nee was a devoted Christian and respected servant of our Lord for many years, later he allowed himself to be led away by an heretical spirit.

Nee began to believe and teach the heresy of Melliniel Exclusion, teaching the seperation of soul and spirit each one having it's own salvation. The spirit being saved at regeneration by grace, but the soul must be saved by self-works.

If one does not produce enough works then one will spend 1000 years in hell for being a bad Christian. Nobody who believes in this heresy can tell you how many works are good enough, so you don't know if you will be tortured by Jesus until you get there.

Nee produced these heresies in his book titled "Salvation of the Soul". Since Nee, a man named Arlen Chitwood has taken up the cause for antichrist and has produced his own book sporting the same title. Arlen is still alive and well, I have corresponded with him on this subject in years past.

I know much about this topic because I have a brother who is caught up in this heresy and let me tell you, once someone gets this garbage in their brain it is VERY difficult to get them out of it. It is like God has turned them over to their own immagination and they can't come back. Which reminds me, I must get back to some serious praying for him and have faith God will shake this garb out of him.

:godisgood:

 

[Marcia]

Soul always means life.

Why have you stated "soul/spirit" as one? Are you saying soul and spirit are one in the same? Or are you saying they are inseperable?



:jesus:

I'm saying they are the same thing. Those terms are often used interchangeably in the Bible. This topic has come up on the BB at least twice before and I engaged in several hours of research on it. So I'm pretty satisfied that they are the same although sometimes they are used differently. Context is important as the terms in Hebrew seem rather general and are used in many contexts.

When soul and spirit are used separately as in Heb. 4.12, I think that is just a way of emphasizing something. It does not mean the soul and spirit are different. How in the world can we define these when God doesn't? We have a material part and immaterial part. Isn't that enough to know?

 

[Marcia]

While Nee was a devoted Christian and respected servant of our Lord for many years, later he allowed himself to be led away by an heretical spirit.

Nee began to believe and teach the heresy of Melliniel Exclusion, teaching the seperation of soul and spirit each one having it's own salvation. The spirit being saved at regeneration by grace, but the soul must be saved by self-works.

If one does not produce enough works then one will spend 1000 years in hell for being a bad Christian. Nobody who believes in this heresy can tell you how many works are good enough, so you don't know if you will be tortured by Jesus until you get there.

Nee produced these heresies in his book titled "Salvation of the Soul". Since Nee, a man named Arlen Chitwood has taken up the cause for antichrist and has produced his own book sporting the same title. Arlen is still alive and well, I have corresponded with him on this subject in years past.

I know much about this topic because I have a brother who is caught up in this heresy and let me tell you, once someone gets this garbage in their brain it is VERY difficult to get them out of it. It is like God has turned them over to their own immagination and they can't come back. Which reminds me, I must get back to some serious praying for him and have faith God will shake this garb out of him.

:godisgood:

Steaver, thanks for this explanation and information. I also think Watchman Nee had is own interpretations of scripture that he wrote down as though they were what the text said, rather than just his own ideas. I've read some of his stuff and I find it convoluted and not supported by scripture. He likes to get into things the Bible is not clear on and try to define it his way, imo.

I cannot figure out why Christians like him. When I read him, my brain starts to suffocate.

 

[Marcia]

Nee began to believe and teach the heresy of Melliniel Exclusion, teaching the seperation of soul and spirit each one having it's own salvation. The spirit being saved at regeneration by grace, but the soul must be saved by self-works.

If one does not produce enough works then one will spend 1000 years in hell for being a bad Christian. Nobody who believes in this heresy can tell you how many works are good enough, so you don't know if you will be tortured by Jesus until you get there.

We had a few people on the BB who believed this stuff. I think they are gone now.

 

[steaver]

Marcia;
I'm saying they are the same thing. Those terms are often used interchangeably in the Bible. This topic has come up on the BB at least twice before and I engaged in several hours of research on it. So I'm pretty satisfied that they are the same although sometimes they are used differently. Context is important as the terms in Hebrew seem rather general and are used in many contexts.

When soul and spirit are used separately as in Heb. 4.12, I think that is just a way of emphasizing something. It does not mean the soul and spirit are different. How in the world can we define these when God doesn't? We have a material part and immaterial part. Isn't that enough to know?

I believe the soul and spirit are one and this is why they are frequently spoken interchangeably.

I believe the soul is the person whether with the body or without the body. The body gives us (the soul) a face and all of the senses so we may enjoy things. However we suffer things also because of sin so we look forward to a new (ressurrected) sinless body to come.

The spirit is what gives the soul life;

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;and man became a living soul.

"breath of life" is the "spirit of life"

"man became a living soul".....it is the "breath of life" or the "spirit of life" which is in the soul that causes life.

I see this no less than God creating the soul and spirit simultaniously and they are one...spirit is the life and soul is the personallity. Soul cannot exist without spirit. Soul can exist without the body.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I also think Watchman Nee had is own interpretations of scripture that he wrote down as though they were what the text said, rather than just his own ideas. I've read some of his stuff and I find it convoluted and not supported by scripture. He likes to get into things the Bible is not clear on and try to define it his way, imo.

I cannot figure out why Christians like him. When I read him, my brain starts to suffocate.

I guess some of his books are very mainstream Christianity, but nothing anymore special than any other good preacher/teacher. It is when he goes off into his own interpretations of soul salvation while ignoring context and harmony with other scriptures where he gets into heresy.

We had a few people on the BB who believed this stuff. I think they are gone now.

Yeah, I was here debating with them. I don't know why the topic was banned because I find it very easy to refute and what better place for Christians to learn about false doctrines which float around in Christian circles. Very few have embraced the heresy and I believe even those could be led out if allowed to debate it here with folks who are well studied in the matter.

Everytime I have the chance to debate these folks they find themselves in a tight corner and sadly they usually go away rather than allowing the facts change their view, but I always hold out for hope.

:jesus:

 

[webdog]

I'm saying they are the same thing. Those terms are often used interchangeably in the Bible. This topic has come up on the BB at least twice before and I engaged in several hours of research on it. So I'm pretty satisfied that they are the same although sometimes they are used differently. Context is important as the terms in Hebrew seem rather general and are used in many contexts.

When soul and spirit are used separately as in Heb. 4.12, I think that is just a way of emphasizing something. It does not mean the soul and spirit are different. How in the world can we define these when God doesn't? We have a material part and immaterial part. Isn't that enough to know?

Agreed :thumbs:

I would also add that if the author of Hebrews were trying to separate Soul And Spirit in that passasge, the fact the Word of God separates joint from marrow makes no sense, as both are corruptible. That passage is basically saying the Word cuts to that which cannot be seen (the immaterial, and the internal material).

 

[Marcia]

I believe the soul and spirit are one and this is why they are frequently spoken interchangeably.

I believe the soul is the person whether with the body or without the body. The body gives us (the soul) a face and all of the senses so we may enjoy things. However we suffer things also because of sin so we look forward to a new (ressurrected) sinless body to come.

The spirit is what gives the soul life;

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;and man became a living soul.

"breath of life" is the "spirit of life"

"man became a living soul".....it is the "breath of life" or the "spirit of life" which is in the soul that causes life.

I see this no less than God creating the soul and spirit simultaniously and they are one...spirit is the life and soul is the personallity. Soul cannot exist without spirit. Soul can exist without the body.

:jesus:

What spirit gives life? I hope you don't mean some universal spirit floating around out there? We have a spirit and soul at the same time (and I think they are the same thing), otherwise, you are saying there is a spirit before a soul exists. The idea of an animating spirit is too close to animism for my comfort. We have life that God gave us, and that encompasses our body and spirit/soul.

The problem with trying to define these terms is that "spirit" and "soul" in English do not always mean what they mean in the Bible, and their meanings change in context, and the Hebrew translated as these words do not always mean the same thing, either.

 

[steaver]

What spirit gives life?

The spirit that God created simultaniously with you/soul at conception.

We have a spirit and soul at the same time (and I think they are the same thing), otherwise, you are saying there is a spirit before a soul exists

God creates both at conception. I don't think they are the same thing but are an inseperable creation. The spirit God created gives life to the soul/personality. The body gives us our senses.

:jesus:

 

[Jim1999]

Quote: The problem with trying to define these terms is that "spirit" and "soul" in English do not always mean what they mean in the Bible, and their meanings change in context, and the Hebrew translated as these words do not always mean the same thing, either.
-------------------------------------

So true, Marcia. Hence, we must be very careful when quoting proof texts.

If the understanding of "soul" and "spirit" in humankind was so clear in scripture, I might not have started this thread. It is a challenge to think a little more about what we commonly accept in passing.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[steaver]

If the understanding of "soul" and "spirit" in humankind was so clear in scripture, I might not have started this thread. It is a challenge to think a little more about what we commonly accept in passing.

Cheers,

Jim

Could it be that we make this subject a bit more complicated than it should be?

Scripture speaks of soul over 400 times! And yet we are to wonder what does god mean by soul?

If it were a snake it would bite you on the nose!

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

If the understanding of "soul" and "spirit" in humankind was so clear in scripture,

Here is CLEAR scripture;

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

"Man" is a "living soul".

Do a search and you will see that God calls people "souls"...

(soul)
occurs 459 times in 432 verses in the KJV

Not so clear in scripture??

 

[Marcia]

Here is CLEAR scripture;

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

"Man" is a "living soul".

Do a search and you will see that God calls people "souls"...

(soul)
occurs 459 times in 432 verses in the KJV

Not so clear in scripture??

Yes, because soul means a living being, a human.

Scripture defines scripture. Modern use of the word "soul" is not the same as scripture.

We have some examples of this use of soul as a human being that is now old-fashioned: "Three hundred souls perished in the battle." Does that mean just their souls perished? No, the people perished.

 

[Jim1999]

"..the soul that sins, it shall die..." Ez 18:4...So, once we sin, we live life without a soul.Hmm

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Amy.G]

"..the soul that sins, it shall die..." Ez 18:4...So, once we sin, we live life without a soul.Hmm

Cheers,

Jim

I don't think it means we live without a soul, but that we are spiritually dead, meaning separated from God.

The soul/spirit is eternal, else there would be no suffering in hell.

 

[Marcia]

I don't think it means we live without a soul, but that we are spiritually dead, meaning separated from God.

The soul/spirit is eternal, else there would be no suffering in hell.

Amy, I think Jim knows that - he's just backing up what I've been saying - that the word "soul" in the Bible often means a person.

Look at the posts on this page and previous.

 

[Jim1999]

The phrase translated "a living soul" in Gen 2:7 means "a living person"; ie: the word soul (Heb. nephesh) here does not denote a component part of the living being, but the whole. The expression in Gen 2:7 must not be confused with th formally identical expression used elsewhere with a collective force to denote creatures of he animal world in a narrower sense Gen 2:19 where it is rendered "living creature". Gen 2:7 does not teach that body plus spirit equals soul, but that body plus spirit equals person. The man became a liviing person when God, having fashioned his body, breathed the breath of life into it.......

With help from F.F. Bruce

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, I think Jim knows that - he's just backing up what I've been saying - that the word "soul" in the Bible often means a person.

Look at the posts on this page and previous.

Oops.
My bad.

 

[Jim1999]

I think you will find, as have I, that there is more to understanding "soul" and indeed, "humankind" that first meets the eye.....And, I am not about to dispell any orthodox thinking by an ulterior motive.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

The phrase translated "a living soul" in Gen 2:7 means "a living person"; ie: the word soul (Heb. nephesh) here does not denote a component part of the living being, but the whole. The expression in Gen 2:7 must not be confused with th formally identical expression used elsewhere with a collective force to denote creatures of he animal world in a narrower sense Gen 2:19 where it is rendered "living creature". Gen 2:7 does not teach that body plus spirit equals soul, but that body plus spirit equals person. The man became a liviing person when God, having fashioned his body, breathed the breath of life into it.......

With help from F.F. Bruce

Cheers,

Jim

Thanks, Jim! This sums up what I was saying!