The Sovereignty of God in the life of Joseph

[Silverhair]

Your assertion, that a fully Sovereign God makes God the author and cause of sin is a creation of your own philosophy. You cannot have a Sovereign God when you demand your own sovereignty via human free will that makes man the ruler of his universe.

I notice that you did not even respond to the quotes by Calvinists that show that your version of Gods sovereignty does indeed make Him the author of all sin.

“Nothing comes to pass contrary to his decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which he abhors and forbids, occurs ‘by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.’” ~William Shedd
Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 37. {Calvinist}

Jonathan Edwards states the logical conclusion that, “The eternal decree is the cause of the necessary futurition of evil acts, for the acts inevitably follow on the decree.”He also says, “If God by his decree did force men’s wills, and so necessitate them to be vicious and wicked, then he might justly be called the Author of Sin.”
Jonathan Edwards, On the Decrees, Book I, Ch. 3, 125, Source: Benson, The Revival and Rejection of an Old Traditional Heresy, 41. {Calvinist}

I find it shocking that you would think so little of God that you would say that as the Sovereign ruler of His creation that He can not give man free will. You even go so far as to deny what is right in front of you.

God is not the author of sin but your view of His sovereignty makes Him so. So sad.

 

[AustinC]

I notice that you did not even respond to the quotes by Calvinists that show that your version of Gods sovereignty does indeed make Him the author of all sin.

“Nothing comes to pass contrary to his decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which he abhors and forbids, occurs ‘by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.’” ~William Shedd
Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 37. {Calvinist}

Jonathan Edwards states the logical conclusion that, “The eternal decree is the cause of the necessary futurition of evil acts, for the acts inevitably follow on the decree.”He also says, “If God by his decree did force men’s wills, and so necessitate them to be vicious and wicked, then he might justly be called the Author of Sin.”
Jonathan Edwards, On the Decrees, Book I, Ch. 3, 125, Source: Benson, The Revival and Rejection of an Old Traditional Heresy, 41. {Calvinist}

I find it shocking that you would think so little of God that you would say that as the Sovereign ruler of His creation that He can not give man free will. You even go so far as to deny what is right in front of you.

God is not the author of sin but your view of His sovereignty makes Him so. So sad.

I find it shocking that you misunderstand Edwards so badly.

 

[Silverhair]

As I've said several times before, I don't. The Bible teaches both things; therefore I believe them both. God is utterly sovereign (e.g. Job 42:2), yet God is not the author of evil (e.g. Deuteronomy 32:4). Why can you not accept that? You should be following Job and repenting in dust and ashes (Job 42:6).
Let me spell this out one more time. Because you and I cannot understand how God can do something, that doesn't mean that He cannot do it. As I also said before, Romans 11:33-36 applies.

Why do you keep miss stating what I have said. God is not the author of sin, it is your WCF & LBCF that makes Him so. Your the one that should take your on advice, You should be following Job and repenting in dust and ashes (Job 42:6).

Note it is your Calvinist authors that state that God is the author of evil and this based on the WCF & or LBCF.
“Nothing comes to pass contrary to his decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which he abhors and forbids, occurs ‘by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.’” ~William Shedd
Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 37.

Jonathan Edwards states the logical conclusion that, “The eternal decree is the cause of the necessary futurition of evil acts, for the acts inevitably follow on the decree.”He also says, “If God by his decree did force men’s wills, and so necessitate them to be vicious and wicked, then he might justly be called the Author of Sin.”
Jonathan Edwards, On the Decrees, Book I, Ch. 3, 125, Source: Benson, The Revival and Rejection of an Old Traditional Heresy, 41.

You have a real problem putting two & two together. If God decrees all things, as your WCF & LBCF state, that means all things does it not? The bible does not make God the author of sin your documents do.

Stop hiding behind the WCF & LBCF and just read the text of scripture then you will find the true character of God.

 

[Silverhair]

I find it shocking that you misunderstand Edwards so badly.

Did Edwards not say what the quote said? Sounds to me he is just saying what is the clear reading of the WCF & LBCF.

“If God by his decree did force men’s wills, and so necessitate them to be vicious and wicked, then he might justly be called the Author of Sin.” While Edwards wants to put it as a possibility "if" the WCF & LBCF make it a reality "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; "

Does not seem to leave a lot of wiggle room there. I agree "I find it shocking that you misunderstand Edwards so badly." How are you able to miss read what he wrote, unless you just do not want to see the truth that is right in front of you. I notice that you did not disagree with what Willam Shedd said,
“Nothing comes to pass contrary to his decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which he abhors and forbids, occurs ‘by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.’” ~William Shedd

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Why do you keep miss stating what I have said. God is not the author of sin, it is your WCF & LBCF that makes Him so. Your the one that should take your on advice, You should be following Job and repenting in dust and ashes (Job 42:6).

Note it is your Calvinist authors that state that God is the author of evil and this based on the WCF & or LBCF.
“Nothing comes to pass contrary to his decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which he abhors and forbids, occurs ‘by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.’” ~William Shedd
Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 37.

Jonathan Edwards states the logical conclusion that, “The eternal decree is the cause of the necessary futurition of evil acts, for the acts inevitably follow on the decree.”He also says, “If God by his decree did force men’s wills, and so necessitate them to be vicious and wicked, then he might justly be called the Author of Sin.”
Jonathan Edwards, On the Decrees, Book I, Ch. 3, 125, Source: Benson, The Revival and Rejection of an Old Traditional Heresy, 41.

You have a real problem putting two & two together. If God decrees all things, as your WCF & LBCF state, that means all things does it not? The bible does not make God the author of sin your documents do.

Stop hiding behind the WCF & LBCF and just read the text of scripture then you will find the true character of God.

Why do you keep misstating what I say? You have not brought any Scripture into the discussion, but you quote various theologians and ascribe their views to me. I am fairly certain that these quotes have been pulled out of context, but I don't have the books that the quotes are supposed to come from so I can't comment further.
I believe the Bible. I agree with what the 1689 LBCF says precisely because it agrees with the Bible. God controls all things, yet he does not force men's wills (and Edwards agrees with this) and He is not the Author of evil. I have quoted copious Scriptures to show that this is the case, yet you will not engage with the Scriptures either in the O.P. or with my later posts, and nor will you produce any of your own, but instead you keep posting extracts from various writers.

 

[AustinC]

Did Edwards not say what the quote said? Sounds to me he is just saying what is the clear reading of the WCF & LBCF.

“If God by his decree did force men’s wills, and so necessitate them to be vicious and wicked, then he might justly be called the Author of Sin.” While Edwards wants to put it as a possibility "if" the WCF & LBCF make it a reality "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; "

Does not seem to leave a lot of wiggle room there. I agree "I find it shocking that you misunderstand Edwards so badly." How are you able to miss read what he wrote, unless you just do not want to see the truth that is right in front of you. I notice that you did not disagree with what Willam Shedd said,
“Nothing comes to pass contrary to his decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which he abhors and forbids, occurs ‘by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.’” ~William Shedd

Again, you show your cluelessness regarding Edwards statement. If you understood, you would see your error.

 

[Silverhair]

Why do you keep misstating what I say? You have not brought any Scripture into the discussion, but you quote various theologians and ascribe their views to me. I am fairly certain that these quotes have been pulled out of context, but I don't have the books that the quotes are supposed to come from so I can't comment further.
I believe the Bible. I agree with what the 1689 LBCF says precisely because it agrees with the Bible. God controls all things, yet he does not force men's wills (and Edwards agrees with this) and He is not the Author of evil. I have quoted copious Scriptures to show that this is the case, yet you will not engage with the Scriptures either in the O.P. or with my later posts, and nor will you produce any of your own, but instead you keep posting extracts from various writers.

Martin you said "I am fairly certain that these quotes have been pulled out of context," but what does it matter to you. You do not seem to understand the context of the LBCF or WCF.

You may not like the reality of it but if you, as you say you do, ascribe to the LBCF then you Martin, like it or not, have said that God does indeed cause all evil as as per Calvinism. Check Calvin, Shedd, White, Edwards, Sproul, Piper. They all hold to your Divine Meticulous Control, nothing happens unless God decrees it. That includes sin.

Your absolute control view is your downfall.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, you show your cluelessness regarding Edwards statement. If you understood, you would see your error.

You Austin you do not have to be rude. If you do not like what Edwards said then deal with it. As I said to Martin. Check Calvin, Shedd, White, Edwards, Sproul, Piper. They all hold to your Divine Meticulous Control, nothing happens unless God decrees it. That includes sin.

I can not help you if you are to blind or unwilling to see the truth that is right in front of you.

 

[SGO]

You Austin you do not have to be rude. If you do not like what Edwards said then deal with it. As I said to Martin. Check Calvin, Shedd, White, Edwards, Sproul, Piper. They all hold to your Divine Meticulous Control, nothing happens unless God decrees it. That includes sin.

I can not help you if you are to blind or unwilling to see the truth that is right in front of you.

Please put the scripture or bible verses right in front.

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord,
as the rivers of water:
he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Proverbs 21:1

 

[Silverhair]

Please put the scripture or bible verses right in front.

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord,
as the rivers of water:
he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Proverbs 21:1

SGO you just proved my point. For the Calvinist they have to have God micro manage everything for Him to be sovereign. Remember "All Things" LBCF
I have said many times God is sovereign but He does not need to micro manage to be so. I can not help it if many Calvinists are afraid to let God be God.

 

[SGO]

SGO you just proved my point. For the Calvinist they have to have God micro manage everything for Him to be sovereign. Remember "All Things" LBCF
I have said many times God is sovereign but He does not need to micro manage to be so. I can not help it if many Calvinists are afraid to let God be God.

Abbreviations and names work for a while: how about the bible next time?

There are many devices in a man's heart;
nevertheless the counsel of the Lord,
that shall stand.
Proverbs 19:21

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin you said "I am fairly certain that these quotes have been pulled out of context," but what does it matter to you. You do not seem to understand the context of the LBCF or WCF.

You may not like the reality of it but if you, as you say you do, ascribe to the LBCF then you Martin, like it or not, have said that God does indeed cause all evil as as per Calvinism. Check Calvin, Shedd, White, Edwards, Sproul, Piper. They all hold to your Divine Meticulous Control, nothing happens unless God decrees it. That includes sin.

Your absolute control view is your downfall.

God is not the Author of evil because the Bible says so. God also controls all things, and that is what the Bible also says. It is you who has the problem because you are opposing your intellect to God's.

 

[AustinC]

You Austin you do not have to be rude. If you do not like what Edwards said then deal with it. As I said to Martin. Check Calvin, Shedd, White, Edwards, Sproul, Piper. They all hold to your Divine Meticulous Control, nothing happens unless God decrees it. That includes sin.

I can not help you if you are to blind or unwilling to see the truth that is right in front of you.

I like what Edwards said, it's just that you are clueless regarding what he said. This is a fact and you imagine my forthright comment is rude.
Edwards would just shake his head at what you imagine him to be saying.

 

[AustinC]

SGO you just proved my point. For the Calvinist they have to have God micro manage everything for Him to be sovereign. Remember "All Things" LBCF
I have said many times God is sovereign but He does not need to micro manage to be so. I can not help it if many Calvinists are afraid to let God be God.

The one who believes in God's total Sovereignty does so because God reveals it as so.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Ephesians 1:11-12
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Isaiah 45:6-7
That people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Luke 12:22-26
And he said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest?

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Job 12:10
In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

Isaiah 55:8-11
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

1 Chronicles 29:11-12
Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.

 

[Silverhair]

The one who believes in God's total Sovereignty does so because God reveals it as so.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Ephesians 1:11-12
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Isaiah 45:6-7
That people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Luke 12:22-26
And he said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest?

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Job 12:10
In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

Isaiah 55:8-11
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

1 Chronicles 29:11-12
Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.

I am not sure who is the more in denial you or martin. Open your eyes and stop looking at your god Calvin. You are willing to slander God to protect your unbiblical views. You make your god someone that you can trap in a box called divine meticulous determination. You want to control all that He wants to do. When I tell you that He is sovereign and allows for His creation to have free will you huff and puff and say that means I want to control everything. You sound like someone that has lost control. Grow up and stop acting like a spoiled child. You just embarrass yourself.

I have spent enough time looking a what Calvinists say and really have to wonder if they understand English. You deny clear text, change the meaning of words, add or remove words form scripture. Calvinists push beyond the edges of credibility.

 

[AustinC]

I am not sure who is the more in denial you or martin. Open your eyes and stop looking at your god Calvin. You are willing to slander God to protect your unbiblical views. You make your god someone that you can trap in a box called divine meticulous determination. You want to control all that He wants to do. When I tell you that He is sovereign and allows for His creation to have free will you huff and puff and say that means I want to control everything. You sound like someone that has lost control. Grow up and stop acting like a spoiled child. You just embarrass yourself.

I have spent enough time looking a what Calvinists say and really have to wonder if they understand English. You deny clear text, change the meaning of words, add or remove words form scripture. Calvinists push beyond the edges of credibility.

Wow! You must realize that you are the only one talking about John Calvin in this conversation. It's interesting how people who despise God being fully God will blame a man dead 500 years when the truth is they cannot stand reading God's word when God tells them that He is in full control over all His creation.
Note that all I did was share God's word and you end up scapegoating John Calvin for your own dislike of God.

 

[SGO]

I am not sure who is the more in denial you or martin. Open your eyes and stop looking at your god Calvin. You are willing to slander God to protect your unbiblical views. You make your god someone that you can trap in a box called divine meticulous determination. You want to control all that He wants to do. When I tell you that He is sovereign and allows for His creation to have free will you huff and puff and say that means I want to control everything. You sound like someone that has lost control. Grow up and stop acting like a spoiled child. You just embarrass yourself.

I have spent enough time looking a what Calvinists say and really have to wonder if they understand English. You deny clear text, change the meaning of words, add or remove words form scripture. Calvinists push beyond the edges of credibility.

You forgot your bible verses again.

 

[Scott Downey]

Just throwing out random words does not add anything to the discussion.

At the least quote the whole sentence.

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

context matters

The reason you trusted though is God brought it to pass.
What did Christ say, not my will but thine be done.

 

[SGO]

God knows all the planets and names each of them.

He counts each and every one of our hairs.

Why would His knowing and arranging all things beyond our comprehension be so strange?

You want, like everyone in their own way, to get some of the glory.

In whom we also have obtained an inheritance,
being predestined according to the purpose of
him who worketh
all things
after the counsel of his own will:
That we
should be to the praise of his glory,...
Ephesians 1:11-12

Don't worry,
if your work abides
you shall receive a reward (1 Corinthians 3:14).
And every man shall have praise of God (1 Corinthians 4:5).

 

[SGO]

Should not have posted the above #79.
My apologies.