The Sovereignty of God is Absolute

[KenH]

All you guys who are dispensationalists

I am not a dispensationalist. I think that dispensationalism is a horribly false teaching, and if it is not heresy, then it is right next door to it.

 

[DaveXR650]

What I hear from all the Calvinists is, we want God to be in total absolute control of all things but He is only responsible for the good things and man that is under the total absolute control of God is responsible for all the bad things. And then Calvinists wonder why non-calvinists say this is totally illogical.

We've been over this a lot. I don't see what is illogical about God allowing the free will of men to run free until it either would undo God's overall plans or until is comes up against God's direct will for someone else that would be affected by the choice of the first person. In other words, there is no reason God cannot allow me to punch Bill and have that be totally on me unless my punching Bill would set off a chain of events that goes against God's plan or if God does not want Bill punched at that time. God is totally able to allow me to punch Bill and use that to set off things that are according to his plan, or stop me if he wants. I don't know why that would make God at fault if I punch Bill. If God wanted to, Cheung is right, He could make me punch Bill but I find in scripture that God does not do that, not because he doesn't have a right to, but because it is against His nature to make me sin. Now scripture does say that if I want to be evil, God may direct my evil to areas that serve His overall plans. A cruel, ruthless person may be used by God to start a war or chastise someone else or cause something that works out better for other people eventually as God desires. God raised him up for that purpose but did not make him evil and cruel. I'm sorry it's not as simple as we would like it. But it's found all throughout scripture.

 

[KenH]

God's overall plans

God plans everything. Do you think anything takes place that is outside of God's plan, just random occurrences?

it is against His nature

God is not subject to our judgment as to what is His nature. We do not get to decide just how sovereign God is.

God is 100% sovereign. Period.

 

[DaveXR650]

I am not a dispensationalist. I think that dispensationalism is a horribly false teaching, and if it is not heresy, then it is right next door to it.

I know, I just meant that it seems a lot of people who are big advocates of free will are dispensationalists. When I was into that we were very interested in studying detailed interpretations of prophesy. My point was that because of that, in reality, a dispensationalist should be a strong advocate of God's sovereignty. Otherwise, I don't see how there could ever be detailed events to study if it could all change due to some individuals free will choice.

 

[DaveXR650]

God plans everything. Do you think anything takes place that is outside of God's plan, just random occurrences?

No. That's always been my argument with Silverhair. Yet there is still room for free will choices. Yet even all free will choices have been reviewed and allowed to happen at least by God's permissive will. And because this is known to God, and approved by God it will be as God knows it to be. Therefore it is IS predetermined in that sense. Not predetermined in that God is directly causing everything Himself.

God is not subject to our judgment as to what is His nature. We do not get to decide just how sovereign God is.

God is 100% sovereign. Period.

Yes. But God has chosen to reveal things to us about Him and his nature. I say God does not cause sin because scripture reveals that. It has nothing to do with what I judge that God should do. If God wanted to, He could just for fun, cast out someone who comes to Him. But He has revealed that He won't do that so I can believe that. If you attribute things to God that God has clearly revealed He doesn't do, you might be guilty of blasphemy. That's why the confessions tend to say that God is sovereign yet NOT the author of sin. Whether Cheung likes it or not.

 

[Silverhair]

We've been over this a lot. I don't see what is illogical about God allowing the free will of men to run free until it either would undo God's overall plans or until is comes up against God's direct will for someone else that would be affected by the choice of the first person. In other words, there is no reason God cannot allow me to punch Bill and have that be totally on me unless my punching Bill would set off a chain of events that goes against God's plan or if God does not want Bill punched at that time. God is totally able to allow me to punch Bill and use that to set off things that are according to his plan, or stop me if he wants. I don't know why that would make God at fault if I punch Bill. If God wanted to, Cheung is right, He could make me punch Bill but I find in scripture that God does not do that, not because he doesn't have a right to, but because it is against His nature to make me sin. Now scripture does say that if I want to be evil, God may direct my evil to areas that serve His overall plans. A cruel, ruthless person may be used by God to start a war or chastise someone else or cause something that works out better for other people eventually as God desires. God raised him up for that purpose but did not make him evil and cruel. I'm sorry it's not as simple as we would like it. But it's found all throughout scripture.

Dave you are avoiding the problem of the Calvinist point of view. You want God to be in total absolute control but at the same time not to be in total absolute control. You guys can not make up your mind.

Man has a free will as you take pains to point out and with which I do agree. But you can not have a totally absolutely
controlled person have free will. That is an oxymoron.

God allows man to exercise his free will and do good or evil things and sometimes God even causes man to do certain things that is what we see in prophecy but for the Calvinist they can only see man doing bad whereas the bible actually sees man doing good and even turning to God in faith. Why that is such a hard concept for the average Calvinist to grasp is astounding. The only reason that I can see Calvinists holding to that view is that they trust Augustine and Calvin more than the Holy Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

God plans everything. Do you think anything takes place that is outside of God's plan, just random occurrences?



God is not subject to our judgment as to what is His nature. We do not get to decide just how sovereign God is.

God is 100% sovereign. Period.

Then why do you not let Him be? You place restrictions on what God can and cannot do and claim that anyone that disagrees with your pronouncements just does not know the bible or let God be sovereign.

 

[DaveXR650]

God allows man to exercise his free will and do good or evil things and sometimes God even causes man to do certain things that is what we see in prophecy but for the Calvinist they can only see man doing bad

Not at all. We can choose to obey God and then he guides our steps. Like Michael Horton says in that case we as mere humans are given the privilege of being "written into" God's plans. There is no higher thing for us to do. What Calvinists do NOT see is situations where people legitimately take the credit for doing something. David knew that God had delivered Goliath into his hand. He would never have insisted that after all it was he that practiced all the time with that sling and he that knocked Goliath in the head, not God. That's why I'm saying, there is something odd about our modern worship of ourselves and our actions that you don't find in ancient writings.

 

[Silverhair]

No. That's always been my argument with Silverhair. Yet there is still room for free will choices. Yet even all free will choices have been reviewed and allowed to happen at least by God's permissive will. And because this is known to God, and approved by God it will be as God knows it to be. Therefore it is IS predetermined in that sense. Not predetermined in that God is directly causing everything Himself.



Yes. But God has chosen to reveal things to us about Him and his nature. I say God does not cause sin because scripture reveals that. It has nothing to do with what I judge that God should do. If God wanted to, He could just for fun, cast out someone who comes to Him. But He has revealed that He won't do that so I can believe that. If you attribute things to God that God has clearly revealed He doesn't do, you might be guilty of blasphemy. That's why the confessions tend to say that God is sovereign yet NOT the author of sin. Whether Cheung likes it or not.

Your answer to KenH's post "God plans everything. Do you think anything takes place that is outside of God's plan, just random occurrences?" Brings up some questions. You agreed with Ken that God plans everything and yet there is free will.choices and in this view you attempt to get God off the hook for the sinful actions of man. But lets look at this.

If I plan a bank robbery but have other people do the actual robbery and during the robbery a person is shot and dies would I be held liable for the death of that person as an accessory before the fact or would they say that the person who of their own free will fired the shot was the only one liable? By the logic I would not be liable as I did not pull the trigger.

You want God who is in absolute total control to not be responsible for those that He has absolute total control over. There is a vast difference between foreknowing what man will freely do and predetermining what that man will do. Even using your Calvinist permissive will still make God the ultimate cause.

 

[Silverhair]

Not at all. We can choose to obey God and then he guides our steps. Like Michael Horton says in that case we as mere humans are given the privilege of being "written into" God's plans. There is no higher thing for us to do. What Calvinists do NOT see is situations where people legitimately take the credit for doing something. David knew that God had delivered Goliath into his hand. He would never have insisted that after all it was he that practiced all the time with that sling and he that knocked Goliath in the head, not God. That's why I'm saying, there is something odd about our modern worship of ourselves and our actions that you don't find in ancient writings.

And there is something odd in how Calvinist's want God to the the cause/agent until it is pointed out that their theology would make God the cause/agent of evil also. Does God cause some things to happen, of course He does. That is why we have prophecy. But if man does not have a real free will where he can freely reject or choose to trust in Christ Jesus then he does not have a real free will and is in actuality no more than a puppet on a string dancing to the movements of the master controller, GOD.

What we do find in the ancient writings is that we are to make real choices and we will be held responsible for those choices.

 

[DaveXR650]

If I plan a bank robbery but have other people do the actual robbery and during the robbery a person is shot and dies would I be held liable for the death of that person as an accessory before the fact or would they say that the person who of their own free will fired the shot was the only one liable? By the logic I would not be liable as I did not pull the trigger.

At some level you have to admit that God's doing a lot more and has more responsibility at multiple levels than we do. For instance God had to decide when every single individual dies. We don't. I don't want that on me either. But what if God realized that Joseph's brothers hate him and wanted to kill him. God could have stopped them, or helped Joseph escape or any number of things. Instead, he set it up so that great benefit was done for the Israelites and God specifically said he fixed it up like that. There is no way you can get around this. You have men acting with free will for evil purposes and God using this to fulfill His plan. He says so Himself.

 

[DaveXR650]

And there is something odd in how Calvinist's want God to the the cause/agent until it is pointed out that their theology would make God the cause/agent of evil also.

If we study God, reverently I hope, why would we not discover that God tends to do good and not evil? This makes perfect sense according to what we know about God from scripture.

 

[AustinC]

If we study God, reverently I hope, why would we not discover that God tends to do good and not evil? This makes perfect sense according to what we know about God from scripture.

*Romans 8:28-30*
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[George Antonios]

My post #25 earlier in this thread should give you plenty to contemplate on the subject.

Also, Vincent Cheung wrote a book on the subject - The Author of Sin (vincentcheung.com) - in which he refutes the phrase "author of sin" as nothing more than a loaded phrase bound in religious tradition.

My God have mercy on him and you.

 

[KenH]

My God have mercy on him and you.

As a dirty rotten filthy sinner, I live every moment dependent upon the mercy of God.

 

[Silverhair]

At some level you have to admit that God's doing a lot more and has more responsibility at multiple levels than we do. For instance God had to decide when every single individual dies. We don't. I don't want that on me either. But what if God realized that Joseph's brothers hate him and wanted to kill him. God could have stopped them, or helped Joseph escape or any number of things. Instead, he set it up so that great benefit was done for the Israelites and God specifically said he fixed it up like that. There is no way you can get around this. You have men acting with free will for evil purposes and God using this to fulfill His plan. He says so Himself.

I have not questioned that God used bad man for good purposes. Where the problem comes in for the Calvinist is that you have God determining all things not just some things. So even the evil that men do like the brother's of Joseph under your Calvinism only did what God had them do. Calvinists can try to come up with all the excuses they want but the reality is that your theology makes God the only cause of sin and evil, the men that do the sin and evil are just puppets. That is why man having a real free will is the only way to get God of that hook Calvinism has put Him on.

 

[Silverhair]

If we study God, reverently I hope, why would we not discover that God tends to do good and not evil? This makes perfect sense according to what we know about God from scripture.

The God of the bible is good, it is the God of Calvinism that is the soul cause of evil and sin. Your own WCF& LBCF show this although they do try to back out of the position they have put themselves in. Then when you look at your TULIP or DoG you just reinforce the problem. It actually amazes me that Calvinists can not or in most cases will not see the problem right in front of them. The only thing I can say is that Cognitive Dissonance is alive and well in the ranks of Calvinism.

 

[AustinC]

The God of the bible is good, it is the God of Calvinism that is the soul cause of evil and sin. Your own WCF& LBCF show this although they do try to back out of the position they have put themselves in. Then when you look at your TULIP or DoG you just reinforce the problem. It actually amazes me that Calvinists can not or in most cases will not see the problem right in front of them. The only thing I can say is that Cognitive Dissonance is alive and well in the ranks of Calvinism.

The God of the Bible is Just. If God is not Just, then God could not be Good.
God's justice demands full payment for sins. The Bible says we are justified by faith in the substitutional atoning work of Christ Jesus alone. The Bible tells us that faith comes after we hear the Word of God. The Bible tells us that we were dead, but God made us alive. We hear God after being made alive, which is precisely when we are given the faith to believe and be justified.

Sliverhair, you did nothing. That, by the way is amazing grace.

 

[Silverhair]

The God of the Bible is Just.

I agree

If God is not Just, then God could not be Good.

I agree

God's justice demands full payment for sins.

I agree
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The Bible says we are justified by faith in the substitutional atoning work of Christ Jesus alone.

Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The Bible tells us that faith comes after we hear the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Bible tells us that we were dead, but God made us alive.

But you over look the reason God makes us alive. FAITH in His son
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

We hear God after being made alive, which is precisely when we are given the faith to believe and be justified.

And at this point you have go off the rails and contradict the scriptures

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Sliverhair, you did nothing. That, by the way is amazing grace.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,...
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[AustinC]

I agree


I agree


I agree
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Good verse, but you turn it into universalism, which means that there are no sinners in the world who need to repent.

Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Justifying faith comes after salvation, not when you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Justifying faith comes after salvation.

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Spiritually dead cannot hear God's voice.
But God, even when we were dead, made us alive. It's God first.

But you over look the reason God makes us alive. FAITH in His son
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

You refuse to see that you were dead in sins. God must first make you alive and save you by grace, so that God can give you faith to believe. Honestly, you openly reject Ephesians 2:1-7 and just jump to verse 8.

And at this point you have go off the rails and contradict the scriptures

No, you openly reject what God tells you and then pick sentences to try manufacture your humanism.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

See, you cannot even quote a whole sentence. You reject Ephesians 1:3-12,which informs verse 13 and 14.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,...

The faith that God gives to those he saves us the faith that justifies.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

Only those who hear (are made alive) can call on the name of the Lord. Dead men don't speak.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Yep, everyone whom God has made alive, is given faith to believe and receive their inheritance as adopted children of God.

Thanks for the verses, Sliverhair. It's too bad you don't understand what God is telling you so that you could repent of your humanist pride and humbly give God all the glory as you ought