The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

[BobRyan]

So then for Matt 24, and 2Thess 2 - show that the elect are gathered to Christ - after the tribulation.

======================================

2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Matt 24
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

So then for Matt 24, and 2Thess 2 - show that the elect are gathered to Christ - after the tribulation.
Bob

But you believe the Great Tribulation has already taken place don't you?
That is why you emphasize the Dark Ages so much. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

But you believe the Great Tribulation has already taken place don't you?
That is why you emphasize the Dark Ages so much. Correct me if I am wrong.

The dark ages of many centuries long persecution of the saints is indeed great tribulation - so also is the great tribulation that is still ahead of us which will not be centuries long at all - (short and quick) though it may easily turn out to kill more Christians.

But the point of Matt 24 is that "AFTER" the great tribulation - God gathers His elect.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The dark ages of many centuries long persecution of the saints is indeed great tribulation - so also is the great tribulation that is still ahead of us which will not be centuries long at all - (short and quick) though it may easily turn out to kill more Christians.

But the point of Matt 24 is that "AFTER" the great tribulation - God gathers His elect.

in Christ,

Bob

First the Bible speaks of only one Tribulation. That Great Tribulation is seven years long and divided into two halves of three and a half years each.
However long you put it, there is only one!

Secondly, even though people suffered in times past, they are suffering just as much if not more in these present times. You may not hear of it, but they do. In fact there have been more Christians persecuted and more martyrs die for their Christian faith in the 20th century than all previous centuries put together. That one fact alone cancels out your theory. It would tell me compared to what you describe as the Tribulation, the "Tribulation" is happening to a greater extent today compared to years gone by. You simply live in a country that is not experiencing it as much as others.

Thirdly, it is in the Tribulation, not the Millennial Kingdom, not at Christ's Kingdom, but in the Tribulation itself, when there will be signs in the sky or in the heavens above. Those haven't happened yet. That proves that the Tribulation has not happened yet. All of this proves your theories wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

First the Bible speaks of only one Tribulation.

50+ million were killed in the dark ages and and tens of millions more in the 1900's alone.

Not sure where you are living - or how many more millions would have to die for you to consider it "tribulation" - but for many observers - it counts.

Secondly, even though people suffered in times past, they are suffering just as much if not more in these present times. You may not hear of it, but they do. In fact there have been more Christians persecuted and more martyrs die for their Christian faith in the 20th century than all previous centuries put together.

So... errr... umm... sounds like "tribulation" to me.

And more to come.

Then after that - "He shall gather his elect".

And all of it future to Matt 24 and to 2Thess 2.

Which is why the PRETRIB argument never really gets off the ground.

Thirdly, it is in the Tribulation, not the Millennial Kingdom, not at Christ's Kingdom, but in the Tribulation itself, when there will be signs in the sky or in the heavens above. Those haven't happened yet. That proves that the Tribulation has not happened yet. All of this proves your theories wrong.

In Matt 24 - that happens post-trib.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

50+ million were killed in the dark ages and and tens of millions more in the 1900's alone.

Not sure where you are living - or how many more millions would have to die for you to consider it "tribulation" - but for many observers - it counts.

How long were the Dark Ages?
In the 20th Century alone over one hundred million were killed!!
That is far more in the Dark Ages, and in a time span that is much less. In comparison it makes the Dark Ages look like a vacation. But you are closing your eyes to what is happening in this world today.

So... errr... umm... sounds like "tribulation" to me.

I am a missionary who has lived and seen first hand what Muslims do to Christians.

And more to come.

Then after that - "He shall gather his elect".

And all of it future to Matt 24 and to 2Thess 2.

Which is why the PRETRIB argument never really gets off the ground.

There will always be suffering: trials and tribulations. But there is only ONE TRIBULATION. There is no sense in playing word games here. When we speak of The Tribulation we speak of a coming period of time (seven years in length) that is described in Revelation 6 to 19. Why confound and confuse the subject more by using the word in a more generic sense?

In Matt 24 - that happens post-trib.

No. The signs and wonders, etc., are during the Tribulation.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
--The above passage is definitely before Christ comes. This is during the Tribulation.

 

[prophet]

How long were the Dark Ages?
In the 20th Century alone over one hundred million were killed!!
That is far more in the Dark Ages, and in a time span that is much less. In comparison it makes the Dark Ages look like a vacation. But you are closing your eyes to what is happening in this world today.

I am a missionary who has lived and seen first hand what Muslims do to Christians.

There will always be suffering: trials and tribulations. But there is only ONE TRIBULATION. There is no sense in playing word games here. When we speak of The Tribulation we speak of a coming period of time (seven years in length) that is described in Revelation 6 to 19. Why confound and confuse the subject more by using the word in a more generic sense?

No. The signs and wonders, etc., are during the Tribulation.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
--The above passage is definitely before Christ comes. This is during the Tribulation.

Oops! You forgot a verse:
Mat 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:see that ye be not troubled:for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

When you include verse 6, you see that an age of tribulation was kicked off, at some point.
They were specifically informed that these signs were NOT the signs they had asked for.
But the "great tribulation" is going to start, after the Man of Sin is revealed. 2 Thes. 2:1-7

 

[BobRyan]

How long were the Dark Ages?
In the 20th Century alone over one hundred million were killed!!
That is far more in the Dark Ages, and in a time span that is much less.

Sounds like tribulation to me.

How many more "millions" were you thinking before you were willing to admit that we have seen a boat load of Christians going through "tribulation"??

You can't keep making the case for more and more tribulation in the past - and think that this helps the "no tribulation before saints raptured - according to the view of the first century - some 2000 years ago" -- and then supposing that this helps the pre-trib notion.


Matt 24 does not 'BEFORE the tribulation of those days there will be signs and wonders".

Matt 24 does not say "BEFORE the tribulation of those days there moon will be turned to blood red color" etc.

You keep arguing the very details that disprove the pre-trib view - as if it helps pre-trib. Why keep doing that??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[mman]

Let's consider another translation. Here is Young's Literal Translation:

John 5:28 `Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

There are clearly two resurrections as one can see in verse 29. They are separated by a thousand years as taught in Revelation 20, all of which is not symbolic. If it was all symbolic the book would have no meaning at all would it? That is a nonsensical approach to the book.

The hour, not the 1000 years. You are using a highly symbolic passage to modify a clear passage. Rev 20 must fit John 5, not the other way around.

 

[kyredneck]

Oops! You forgot a verse....

Yea.

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

 

[evangelist-7]

Mat 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Just in case someone hasn't realized it YET ...
we are currently IN "the beginning of sorrows" (Matt 24:8)!!!
.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The hour, not the 1000 years. You are using a highly symbolic passage to modify a clear passage. Rev 20 must fit John 5, not the other way around.

Revelation is future history, not symbolism. It must be read through the filter of John's eyes looking 2,000 years or more into the future and not entirely comprehending the vision he was allowed to see.

 

[kyredneck]

Revelation is future history, not symbolism....

Wow. Lol, I suppose you believe it's a literal woman literally clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet literally being chased by a literal red dragon with seven heads and ten horns with literally a whore riding his back decked out in literal purple and scarlet and gold and precious stone and pearls.

John’s use (actually it’s Christ's use) of the word ‘signified’ in Rev 1:1 is in the same sense that he used it in his gospel [Jn 12:32,33; 18:32; 21:18,19] meaning to symbolize. Christ did not speak plainly about the manner of death in these texts, but signified it with other than ‘literal’ language. Note the Aramaic version of Rev 1:1:

‘The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan’.

It must be read through the filter of John's eyes looking 2,000 years or more into the future and not entirely comprehending the vision he was allowed to see.

Wow. Again, from the very first sentences/intro of the book:

‘The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.’

And:

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

 

[DHK]

Oops! You forgot a verse:
Mat 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:see that ye be not troubled:for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

When you include verse 6, you see that an age of tribulation was kicked off, at some point.
They were specifically informed that these signs were NOT the signs they had asked for.
But the "great tribulation" is going to start, after the Man of Sin is revealed. 2 Thes. 2:1-7

I agree with that. The man of sin is the Anti-Christ described in Revelation 13. He will have power over the entire world. He will be in control of a one world government and eventually a one world religion which the false prophet will have control of first.
He will make a pact with the Jews and then in the midst of the Tribulation break that pact and desecrate the Temple. These things have not happened.

 

[DHK]

Wow. Lol, I suppose you believe it's a literal woman literally clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet literally being chased by a literal red dragon with seven heads and ten horns with literally a whore riding his back decked out in literal purple and scarlet and gold and precious stone and pearls.

A rule of hermeneutics is to take things literally unless there is good indication to take it figuratively. The context gives that indication. You interpret the rest of the Bible the same way, but are totally inconsistent here.

Christ said: "I am the door."
Does he look like a door?

John the Baptist said: "Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world."
He pointed to a man, the man Christ Jesus. Did he look like a lamb? Why can you figure these things out in other portions of Scripture, but not in Revelation. Is there something wrong with your hermeneutical skills here?

What does it mean in Revelation 6, when John uses the same word "lamb"?

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
--Were they looking at an actual lamb, an animal? Who or what were they looking at? Is the Bible consistent?

 

[kyredneck]

I fail to see how any of what you just wrote applies to me. I assure you my hermeneutical skills are far more sound than those of you that, contrary to the explicit directions given by Christ, have 'sealed up the words of the book' and have relegated it all to some far distant future.

[add]

Example:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

Use those 'hermeneutical skills' of your's and explain it away. Make it go away since it doesn't fit your mold.

 

[prophet]

I fail to see how any of what you just wrote applies to me. I assure you my hermeneutical skills are far more sound than those of you that, contrary to the explicit directions given by Christ, have 'sealed up the words of the book' and have relegated it all to some far distant future.

[add]

Example:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

Use those 'hermeneutical skills' of your's and explain it away. Make it go away since it doesn't fit your mold.

Yes, the beginning of sorrows, the trbulation era, the Gospel preached in the whole World, etc. All was fulfilled in the Apostles life time.

Mat 24:33
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
We are in the tribulation period, now.
The Great Tribulation is the last 7 years of it.

 

[kyredneck]

...and I see why you go by the handle 'prophet'.

 

[DHK]

Yes, the beginning of sorrows, the trbulation era, the Gospel preached in the whole World, etc. All was fulfilled in the Apostles life time.

Mat 24:33
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
We are in the tribulation period, now.
The Great Tribulation is the last 7 years of it.

Any one who thinks all those things were fulfilled in the apostles lifetime must have a great imagination, and probably have rewritten history according to their imagination.

 

[prophet]

Any one who thinks all those things were fulfilled in the apostles lifetime must have a great imagination, and probably have rewritten history according to their imagination.

Weren't they all martyred?