The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

[DHK]

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
--Does verse 33 go with the verse preceding it, or the verses following it, or both? Either way it must have context.

First, if it goes with the verses preceding it, then you must answer the problems that arise from verse 31:
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1. Who in history can verify this "great sound of a trumpet"? What was it?
2. What angels came? Who saw them? Verification please.
3. The greatest reason of all: The elect were not gathered; they were scattered. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. and the nation of Israel was dispersed as a nation throughout the world and remained that way until 48 A.D. when the United Nations allowed them to become a nation once again by allotting them land in Palestine. Once again they became the "nation of Israel. Up until that time they were scattered. They were not gathered. Your view is entirely against Scripture.

If the context of verse 33 is with the following Scripture you still have problems:
1. Demonstrate how those days were like the days of Noah?
2. Were the days of the invasion of Titus and the destruction of the Temple to be likened to the drinking and making merry of the days of Noah? You are very much confused if they are?
3. Where in history is "there one taken and the other left while both are working in the field." This is a picture of the rapture. It does not fit your paradigm.
No matter which way you interpret verse 33 you have problems.

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, the beginning of sorrows, the trbulation era

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1671933#post1671933

...the Gospel preached in the whole World, etc. All was fulfilled in the Apostles life time.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2070147#post2070147

 

[DHK]

Weren't they all martyred?

There were 120 praying in the upper room when the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost. There is no reason to assume that they were all martyred.
Jesus appeared to over 500 witnesses before he ascended into heaven; there is no reason to believe they were all martyred.

The apostle John was not martyred, but exiled to the Isle of Patmos, where he died of natural causes. He was not martyred. The context is wider then just the apostles. Two WOMEN shall be in the field.
The apostles were not women!

 

[kyredneck]

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

His 'messengers' with the sound of the 'gospel trumpet' have been gathering together His elect from around the globe for two millenia now.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Just a mere hour or two earlier, before giving this Olivet Discourse He had said:

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

Compare with:

And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:24

To ignore the immense significance given to 'that generation' in the scriptures is to have a grand canyon sized hole in your theology:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1951463#post1951463

The greatest reason of all: The elect were not gathered; they were scattered. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.

So you hold that the children of the flesh are reckoned for a seed, Jews are God's elect?

...and the nation of Israel was dispersed as a nation throughout the world and remained that way until 48 A.D. when the United Nations allowed them to become a nation once again by allotting them land in Palestine. Once again they became the "nation of Israel. Up until that time they were scattered. They were not gathered. Your view is entirely against Scripture.

Double check your date there DHK .

You all really place a whoooole lot of stock in that don't you? I'm pretty much convinced it's prophecy fulfilled, but from a totally different angle than your's, and by no means does that mean it's a 'good thing'. It just 'must needs be'.

...the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9

...the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie... Rev 3:9

....and I would/could go further, but choose not to.

 

[prophet]

There were 120 praying in the upper room when the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost. There is no reason to assume that they were all martyred.
Jesus appeared to over 500 witnesses before he ascended into heaven; there is no reason to believe they were all martyred.

The apostle John was not martyred, but exiled to the Isle of Patmos, where he died of natural causes. He was not martyred. The context is wider then just the apostles. Two WOMEN shall be in the field.
The apostles were not women!

12 apostles.
John was martyred, he just wouldnt die. Not significant, as he was persecuted, which is the point.
What was fulfilled, was the beginning of sorrows, or the tribulation era.
The great tribulation, still future as of 1/16/ 2014, begins with the Man of Sin being revealed. It is preceded by a falling away.
The question is, whether we are in the falling away or not.

 

[prophet]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1671933#post1671933



http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2070147#post2070147

Sorry, I'm not interested in following some link, I'm interested in the present conversation.

 

[kyredneck]

Lol. OK, you're 'snug as a bug in a rug' where you're at.

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


So then for those who prefer an even more pointed reading ---


Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


The man-made tradition of the Pre-trib rapture does not survive Matt 24.

Fits perfectly with 2Thess 2

2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,



--------------------

2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Noah's flood was not a problem "for just Jews" and Christ in Matt 24 is not ignoring all of Christianity except for a few Jews at the end of time - contrary to what some have imagined on that point.

The elect always refer to the saints - both Jews and Gentiles.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[prophet]

Lol. OK, you're 'snug as a bug in a rug' where you're at.

If you dont like interaction, go away.

 

[kyredneck]

Well that's not very nice.

 

[DHK]

Noah's flood was not a problem "for just Jews" and Christ in Matt 24 is not ignoring all of Christianity except for a few Jews at the end of time - contrary to what some have imagined on that point.

The elect always refer to the saints - both Jews and Gentiles.

Bob

You are totally wrong. It is the opposite that is true. Matthew 24 is pre-cross. Christ had not died yet. It is the same as in the OT era, where the Jews were always known as God's elect. He was addressing the elect of God, the Jews. That is who he was addressing at that time. Pentecost had not yet come.

 

[DHK]

12 apostles.
John was martyred, he just wouldnt die. Not significant, as he was persecuted, which is the point.
What was fulfilled, was the beginning of sorrows, or the tribulation era.
The great tribulation, still future as of 1/16/ 2014, begins with the Man of Sin being revealed. It is preceded by a falling away.
The question is, whether we are in the falling away or not.

There is no such thing as a "tribulation era." What "era" was John the Baptist in? He was a martyr for the faith, well before Christ died.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
--Jesus expects all who follow Him to suffer and be persecuted. It is part of the life of a Christian, as it was part of the life of the prophets. It is part of living for God.
"Yea all who live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution," Paul wrote to Timothy.
Perhaps those who do not suffer persecution are those who do not live godly lives.
There is no "tribulation era." Tribulation happens to all that live godly lives.

There is only one "Tribulation" or Great Tribulation. It is a seven year period, yet to come, described in Revelation 6 to 19.

The beginning of sorrows has not even begun.
There have been more martyrs in this past century than all past centuries put together.

 

[prophet]

There is no such thing as a "tribulation era." What "era" was John the Baptist in? He was a martyr for the faith, well before Christ died.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
--Jesus expects all who follow Him to suffer and be persecuted. It is part of the life of a Christian, as it was part of the life of the prophets. It is part of living for God.
"Yea all who live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution," Paul wrote to Timothy.
Perhaps those who do not suffer persecution are those who do not live godly lives.
There is no "tribulation era." Tribulation happens to all that live godly lives.

There is only one "Tribulation" or Great Tribulation. It is a seven year period, yet to come, described in Revelation 6 to 19.

The beginning of sorrows has not even begun.
There have been more martyrs in this past century than all past centuries put together.

Summary of your post: there is no tribulation. We all go through tribulation.
Got it.

 

[DHK]

His 'messengers' with the sound of the 'gospel trumpet' have been gathering together His elect from around the globe for two millenia now.

Hardly. That view denies the Second Coming of Christ. Look at both verses together:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--FIRST: Christ appears. All the tribes of the earth mourn for him. ALL shall seem him come with power and glory.
This is the same as in Revelation chapter one:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

When did Christ come? Visibly come? Who saw all the signs in the heavens? Can you document this? If not then the whole thing is just wild speculation.
Christ has not come in the clouds with power and glory.
And THEN HE shall send his angels. Therefore this event has not even begun yet. The belief that it has begun is a denial of the future Second Coming of Christ.

Just a mere hour or two earlier, before giving this Olivet Discourse He had said:

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

And that did happen. SOME of them...SOME of them...SOME of the...ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth from...Abel...to Zachariah.
--There is nothing unusual about what he said. It is true. But that is not the Great Tribulation.

Compare with:

And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:24

--Prophets and saints. There is a difference here.

To ignore the immense significance given to 'that generation' in the scriptures is to have a grand canyon sized hole in your theology:

I am afraid you are the one that cannot see the differences.

So you hold that the children of the flesh are reckoned for a seed, Jews are God's elect?

1. In the OT the nation of Israel were the elect of God.
2. In the NT Paul teaches that this nation has been set aside for a season.
3. Paul also says that this same nation "will be saved."
4. In Rev.19, we see Christ coming from heaven with his armies to save Israel from her enemies.
--Yes, it is a physical Israel, one, who in the future will turn to their Messiah. For now they have rejected him. In the future they will turn to him.
The church is not Israel. That is a heresy IMO!

Double check your date there DHK .

Yep! a typo. From 70 A.D. to 1948 the Jews were scattered and NOT a nation.

You all really place a whoooole lot of stock in that don't you? I'm pretty much convinced it's prophecy fulfilled, but from a totally different angle than your's, and by no means does that mean it's a 'good thing'. It just 'must needs be'.

I know for certain that Christ has not already come and willing to say that to believe he has is heresy. It is to deny the second coming of Christ. Thus my view makes far more sense in light of the historical immanent coming of Christ which all of the apostles believed right til their death. And John himself lived past the first century, Revelation being written ca. 98 A.D.

...the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9

...the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie... Rev 3:9

....and I would/could go further, but choose not to.

And these references are supposed to prove what?

 

[DHK]

Summary of your post: there is no tribulation. We all go through tribulation.
Got it.

We all go through troubles and trials in this world. If one didn't suffer for Christ I would question whether he was saved or not. But that is not what "The Great Tribulation" is.

"Jacob's Trouble," "Daniel's Seventieth Week," "The Great Tribulation." These are the names of that seven year period that we are referring to in this thread. The title of the thread is:

The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

The word "pre-tribulation" in the title here refers to a seven year period in which God pours out his wrath upon the wicked of this world. "Pre-Tribulation is the position that the rapture of the saints in Christ are raised before that Great Tribulation (of seven years) takes place.

 

[BobRyan]

So then Christ (Matt 24) and Paul (2Thess 2) and John (Rev 6) see all this "tribulation" in the future (and some here will admit that even by now that amounts to 150 million Christians slaughtered) -- and yet the pre-trib view has them claiming "no tribulation -- just ignore that 150 million being slaughtered -- prior to the rapture".

Really? that is what "pre trib means?" -- "ignore the upcoming murder of 150 million Christians"??? (Which would be many times more than all the Christians on the planet during the days that the Apostles were writing).

That puts a whole new spin on "missing the tribulation via the rapture".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We all go through troubles and trials in this world. If one didn't suffer for Christ I would question whether he was saved or not. But that is not what "The Great Tribulation" is.

"Jacob's Trouble," "Daniel's Seventieth Week," .

Turns out - the 70 week timeline in Daniel 9 of 490 years is a "timeline" not a "gap line" so the 70th week of years (the last 7 years of the timeline) follows the 69th week which follows the 68th week -- so it is all in "a timeline" and it does accurately predict the coming of the Messiah 2000 years ago - and his death in the midst of that last week after 3.5 years of ministry where as Hebrews 10 tells us - Christ takes away "sacrifices and offerings" through His death on the cross.

So then - not at all what we are talking about in dark ages, in the 1900's or in the future times of stress and tribulation that follow all the past centuries of tribulation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Summary of your post: there is no tribulation. We all go through tribulation.
Got it.

Good point. And what is worse - that "we all go through tribulation" amounts to 150 million Christians slaughtered even by DHK's own POV!!

Many times more Christians than even existed on the planet at the time that Matthew is writing Matt 24!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

The word "pre-tribulation" in the title here refers to
a seven year period in which God pours out his wrath upon the wicked of this world.

IMO, the vast majority of the Christian community believe ...
God's wrath comes in the last part of the 7-year tribulation, i.e. no longer than the last 3 1/2 years.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

That puts a whole new spin on "missing the tribulation via the rapture".

I have always seen a big difference between Christian tribulations, persecutions, etc.
and The Great Tribulation (during the final 7-year period).
.