The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

[DHK]

Just found this info about Corrie Ten Boom:

Is that the depth of the source of your theology??

 

[prophet]

It is a child who won't eat any green food because he doesn't like peas and peas are green, therefore all green food is not good.
You are acting like a child.

I am not a Calvinist. But I use Calvin, and many other works that are Calvinist in nature. Read critically. You don't have to accept everything you read. Glean the truth; reject that which is not truth.

If you can't do that you shouldn't be reading the majority of the posts on this board.
Scofield has well explained Daniel 9:24-27. I don't shoot the messenger if the message is right. His message on that passage is fairly sound.
You are entitled to your opinion. IMO you are simply being childish.

Pointing someone to a blind guide only weakens your argument. Speak for yourself, what has the Spirit shown you. That's what I'm interested in.
I don't care what you learned from another man, it is twice tainted then. Tell me what He taught you lately, so my spirit can bear witness, with yours, of the ongoing work of the Spirit of God.
I've already judged Schofield, and he is found wanting. I cannot interact with him. I cannot interview him, get his side of each story.
With you, I can. God may use you, to enlighten me. But this won't happen through regurgitation of other men's meat.

 

[prophet]

Is that the depth of the source of your theology??

Ahh, the spirit of pettiness reveals itself. Nothing like a diversion, when your false doctrine is unsubstantiated.

 

[saturneptune]

..................................

 

[DHK]

Ahh, the spirit of pettiness reveals itself. Nothing like a diversion, when your false doctrine is unsubstantiated.

Corrie ten Boom, was by trade a watchmaker. Born in 1892, it was an era where she would have very little education in the Bible. Her family attended or were members of the Dutch Reformed Church, who, of course were not pre-trib. The were hyper-Calvinistic covenantal Christians with a reformed outlook and probably post-mil.
She did not have much of a theological outlook and no training at all.
She simply believed in the gospel.
Her other beliefs were shaped by her experiences. Thus here statement" She believed that such a doctrine left the Christian Church ill-prepared in times of great persecution, such as in China under Mao Zedong." was borne out her experience. She went through much tribulation. It is likely that she herself, may have believed that she was going through the tribulation.

But to use her own trials and tribulations as an excuse not to believe in the rapture is inexcusable. And that is what she has done. She is basing her doctrine on her experiences instead of the other way around.

 

[Rippon]

I've already judged Schofield,

At least get the spelling of the man's name right. It is :Scofield.

 

[Rippon]

I use Calvin, and many other works that are Calvinist in nature. Read critically. You don't have to accept everything you read. Glean the truth;

I wish you would apply the same standard to Calvinists. We don't accept every single teaching he stood for. But yet you charge us with worshipping him or someother kind of absurdity.

reject that which is not truth.

Reject that which you do not think is biblical would be a better way of saying it.

 

[Rippon]

Corrie ten Boom, attended the Dutch Reformed Church, who were hyper-Calvinistic.

Please submit proof for your assertion. You have been dreadfully wrong about your hyper-Calvinistic allegations in the past where you claimed that hyper-Calvinism is running rampant in Presbyterianism.

 

[prophet]

At least get the spelling of the man's name right. It is :Scofield.

Miigwetch.

 

[prophet]

Corrie ten Boom, was by trade a watchmaker. Born in 1892, it was an era where she would have very little education in the Bible. Her family attended or were members of the Dutch Reformed Church, who, of course were not pre-trib. The were hyper-Calvinistic covenantal Christians with a reformed outlook and probably post-mil.
She did not have much of a theological outlook and no training at all.
She simply believed in the gospel.
Her other beliefs were shaped by her experiences. Thus here statement" She believed that such a doctrine left the Christian Church ill-prepared in times of great persecution, such as in China under Mao Zedong." was borne out her experience. She went through much tribulation. It is likely that she herself, may have believed that she was going through the tribulation.

But to use her own trials and tribulations as an excuse not to believe in the rapture is inexcusable. And that is what she has done. She is basing her doctrine on her experiences instead of the other way around.

She was right on the pretrib cRapture.

 

[Rippon]

Miigwetch.

Miigwetch=thank you.

 

[prophet]

Miigwetch=thank you.

Eh. Eh=yes.

 

[Rippon]

Eh. Eh=yes.

Correction Pro...eh does not =yes. Eh=huh.

 

[Salty]

Just found this info about Corrie Ten Boom: ...

Is that the depth of the source of your theology??

You're serious arent you?

I simply thought that her quote would be an interesting addition to the subject at hand.
Actually I agree with your later statement

But to use her own trials and tribulations as an excuse not to believe in the rapture is inexcusable. And that is what she has done. She is basing her doctrine on her experiences instead of the other way around.??

Salty

disclamer - I made that post about 3 minutes before I left for work ( I know, I know its a sin to work on sunday - oh thats for another discussion)

 

[prophet]

Correction Pro...eh does not =yes. Eh=huh.

Eh = yes. It isnt a question.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Pointing someone to a blind guide only weakens your argument. Speak for yourself, what has the Spirit shown you. That's what I'm interested in.
I don't care what you learned from another man, it is twice tainted then. Tell me what He taught you lately, so my spirit can bear witness, with yours, of the ongoing work of the Spirit of God.
I've already judged Schofield, and he is found wanting. I cannot interact with him. I cannot interview him, get his side of each story.
With you, I can. God may use you, to enlighten me. But this won't happen through regurgitation of other men's meat.

You're posts exhibit an arrogance that is very carnal.

If I were to behave like you I would say: Sorry we cannot interact with you because you are too prideful to listen to anyone who is not perfect.

C.I. Schofield may have been off on a few things, but he still put out a great study bible with some great notes and he did write some books: What about you?

You're attitude is found wanting.

 

[BobRyan]

Scofield's notes are not divine, infallible, papal, inerrant, scripture, or given by direct revelation from God.

Rather they are fallible, the best efforts of sinful humanity, the best of his ideas, and more than a few times he was right. But one can hardly uses "Scofield's suggestions" as their "Bible". At best his study notes reflect his own understanding on this or that point - sometimes flawed sometimes not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Scofield set himself up as God, in the notes at the beginning of 2Thes.
He claimed that the book of 2Thes. had an original theme of delineating between the "pre-trib cRapture", and the end of the trib pre-wrath resurrection.
He claimed that a mistake by the translators, left 2 Thes. teaching, instead, that they are in fact one singular event.
He knew that he couldn't make the case for his Darbyism, on scripture alone, so instead of repenting, he impuned the scripture (of course he set up a straw man called "translators", but he really sought to unseat the Holy Ghost, and make himself the sole guide into all truth).

Yes but he did us all the favor of admitting that 2 Thess does not fit the pre-trib tradition of man. So while he may choose to declare the Bible wrong and man's tradition right - at least he admits to the gap.

I don't agree with Scofield on everything. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion on any passage of scripture.
The only place I was recommending Scofield was in Daniel 9:24-27,?

So then we all find flaws in Scofield - but just because he is wrong in Dan 9 and in 2Thess 2 and in 1Thess 4 and in Rev 20 does not mean he is wrong everywhere. I will admit that he can be right in some places as well as being wrong in other places.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by DHK

I suggested you read those notes for an understanding of Dan.9:24-27 only.
The above passage fits with the rapture: "Our coming to Him."
In the Second Coming, it is Christ coming to the world in vengeance to destroy the enemies of Israel and all those who obey not the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is the Second Coming. There is no comfort here.

Well you are right that 2Thess 1:7 and 2Thess 2 is speaking about the "I will come AGAIN" event that Christ predicts in John 14:1-3 -- we call it "The second coming".

But here again - your act of agreeing with my POV is not helping you oppose it.

These are all talking about the same event.

Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


The man-made tradition of the Pre-trib rapture does not survive Matt 24.

Fits perfectly with 2Thess 2

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,



--------------------

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


As for your wild speculation that there is no comfort for the saints in the 2nd coming ....

"At the REVELATION of Jesus Christ...

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.



113 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ


2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Thess 2: 2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Matt 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


You cannot directly contradict scripture and expect your view to hold up.

2Thess 2
1 Now, brethren,concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

This is the rapture.

You are right at that point and the pre-trib rapture idea does not survive that point in 2Thess 2 because Paul is making the case that the rapture does not happen until after all the events he lists have taken place.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is the rapture.

True -
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

That is the rapture it is the subject of the chapter. It takes place as Paul says AFTER all the events he lists in the chapter.

And Paul does not want the church to be deceived so he says that they should not be expecting that rapture event before the events he then lists that precede it.

It refers to the Second Coming plus the Tribulation. That time is coming. The rapture takes place first.

Which destroys the chapter in favor of man-made tradition because Paul is providing proof/reason/evidence/data that they can use to NOT believe wild stories of the form "The rapture has happened and you missed it".

Paul says that you will know this is a lie because there are a number of things that must happen BEFORE that rapture event.

And they are...

There will be a falling away first.

Yes the great apostasy of the dark ages would have to come BEFORE 2Thess 1 rapture that takes place at the visible coming of Christ.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

The papacy would arise FIRST - BEFORE the rapture.

We all see that clearly in our history. We all know that in fact the dark ages DID come and we all know that the Papacy DID arise and that the rapture has not yet happened.

Paul was right!

Then the man of sin shall be revealed. That will not happen until the rapture takes place.

No the vs 1 rapture does not happen UNTIL the list that follows takes place -- not the other way around. The other way around would be of no help at all in debunking the "rapture happened and you missed it" wild claims.

Paul prevents the deception that the "rapture has happened and oops! you missed it" by showing that a list of things must come first. This was the defense the cure for the false rapture errors.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed,




And so God gathers His elect just as Christ said .
In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."