The Supposed Errors in the KJV

[Yeshua1]

When you stand before the Lord Jesus Christ, will He address you as a vain person trying to post small posts to be one of the top posters in this forum & not feeding His lambs with the scripture ?

For you to say that the KJV says that, is for you to say that God the Father & the Son is our blessed hope we are looking for in appearing with Jesus Christ when only Jesus Christ is prophesied to be appearing. So that means in context of the message, the use of the Great God is to Jesus Christ.

The Greek Grammar plainly teaches One Person in view, but Kjv has 2 in mind here!

 

[Van]

The AV makers admitted they were unsure about the correct translations of some animals & birds from the Hebrew. One well-known example is "re'em", which we still only know was some sorta large, fierce herbivore. And I don't consider their rendering of it as "unicorn" to be a goof, as those men didn't know unicorns don't really exist; after all, one is depicted on their king's coat-of-arms.(Same for cockatrices & satyrs.) No doctrine is affected by the names of birds or animals.

Modern Jews regard both cuckoos & seagulls as non-kosher.

I wonder if any Jews were on the life-raft with Eddie Rickenbacker when, after praying for a miracle, and lone sea gull landed on Ed's hat and they all enjoyed not just a meager meal, but the fish they caught with the bird's gut. Sounds "kosher" to me according to NT doctrine.

 

[robycop3]

I wonder if any Jews were on the life-raft with Eddie Rickenbacker when, after praying for a miracle, and lone sea gull landed on Ed's hat and they all enjoyed not just a meager meal, but the fish they caught with the bird's gut. Sounds "kosher" to me according to NT doctrine.

I believe dietary laws nwere the last things on Rick's mind at that time!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Then compare all Bibles in regards to 1 Corinthians 1:18-21 to see if verse 18 has "are saved" like the KJV does as opposed to "being saved" as some modern Bibles does in supporting the false teaching that they are in the process of being saved rather than that they are saved

Your problem is that 1 Corinthians 1:18 does actually say "Are being saved" as in the NKJV and others. The verb is in the present tense, which in Greek is continuous. That it offends your theology does not alter the meaning of the verb.

 

[Dave G]

Your problem is that 1 Corinthians 1:18 does actually say "Are being saved" as in the NKJV and others.

I realize that you're answering Hark, but to throw in....
I agree to an extent.

But I think that the KJV renders it just a bit better and agrees with other passages that salvation is an act of God that plays out in a person's lifetime:
In other words, we as believers were saved, are saved and will be saved.

To me, it's all " us which are saved" or "those that be saved", as none of His elect were ever in any danger of not being saved.

 

[Dave G]

The verb is in the present tense, which in Greek is continuous.

I agree.

When I look at the Greek here:
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1co1.pdf
and here:
1 Corinthians 1:18 Interlinear: for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God,

I see that " σωζομένοις", transliterated as "sōzomenois" into the English and meaning "those that are saved" is a Greek word that is carried over into English as more of a phrase...
But here's where I see a problem with our more modern use of English versus the KJV's:

The phrase "are being saved" could potentially give one the idea that it is a process and not an act of God start to finish.
In other words, He saved a people.
That decision was made before the foundation of the world when He chose the believer in Christ ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

The Greek in 1 Corinthians 1:18 tells me that "them that perish" is in the present "state of being" sense...
"the-ones-being-destroyed" / ones-perishing;
While "us which are saved" is also in the present "state of being" tense...
"ones-be-ing saved" / "are saved".

In other words, "them that be perishing" versus "them that be saved".

It's a state of being...not a process where one goes from being one thing ( a goat for example ) to being another ( a sheep for example ).
It's the same in 2 Corinthians 2:15.

One is either a goat or a sheep.
One either hears the word of God because they are "of God" ( John 8:43-47 ) and are His sheep, or one does not believe because one is not His sheep ( John 10:26 ).

One is either saved ( not "being" saved, but is / state-of-being saved ) or is being-lost / being-perishing / being-destroyed.

 

[Dave G]

Contrasting this with " ἀπολλυμένοις" which means " who are perishing" / "them that perish",
I see that the Greek word corresponds with the English phrase, "them that perish", "who are perishing" in many translations.

Greek Concordance: ἀπολλυμένοις (apollymenois) -- 4 Occurrences

To me,
It's the same pattern with the Greek word " σωζομένοις", which means, " who are saved" / "are being saved" ( "are being" meaning "those that be" ).

Greek Concordance: σωζομένοις (sōzomenois) -- 2 Occurrences

They both describe a group that is one or the other...
Not that goes from being one to being the other.

 

[Van]

I believe dietary laws nwere the last things on Rick's mind at that time!

And I believe the OT dietary laws have no application under the New Covenant in His blood.

 

[robycop3]

And I believe the OT dietary laws have no application under the New Covenant in His blood.

True, but try telling that to a JEW.

 

[Hark]

Your problem is that 1 Corinthians 1:18 does actually say "Are being saved" as in the NKJV and others. The verb is in the present tense, which in Greek is continuous. That it offends your theology does not alter the meaning of the verb.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NIV

Have you considered how Paul included himself with "us" of those as "are being saved"?

Is Paul and saved believers are continuously being saved? Because that is what that verse is saying by those modern bibles.

This is no wonder why believers that err use that reference that supports their false teaching that they are not saved yet but in the process of being saved.

I shall stick with what the KJV and a few other modern Bibles has kept as "are saved: because that is what you & I are.. we are saved. Or do you believe differently?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NIV

Have you considered how Paul included himself with "us" of those as "are being saved"?

Is Paul and saved believers are continuously being saved? Because that is what that verse is saying by those modern bibles.

This is no wonder why believers that err use that reference that supports their false teaching that they are not saved yet but in the process of being saved.

I shall stick with what the KJV and a few other modern Bibles has kept as "are saved: because that is what you & I are.. we are saved. Or do you believe differently?

I understand that you don't like the reading of the modern versions (NIV, NKJV, NASB etc.), but whether you like it or not, it is correct. I didn't post to argue theology, but to point out the meaning of the text. However, this may be helpful to you:

Paul uses a variety of tenses to describe our salvation. All these are taken from the NKJV:
Romans 8:24; Aorist: 'For we were saved in this hope.'
Ephesians 2:5, 8; Perfect: 'By grace you have been saved.'
Titus 3:5, Aorist: 'According to His mercy, He saved us.'
2 Corinthians 2:15, Present: 'Those who are being saved.'
Romans 5:9, Future: 'We shall be saved from wrath.'
Romans 11:26, Future: 'All Israel will be saved.'

Salvation then is Past, Present and Future. I have been saved by the precious blood of Christ; I am being saved as by the power of the Spirit I endure to the end (Matthew 24:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18), and I shall be saved on the Last day when I appear before the judgement seat of Christ.
'Believers then are saved in principle during their life on earth. Throughout their earthly sojourn they cherish this blessed assurance, for they are on their way to being saved completely (compare Hebrews 1:14). Complete salvation comes to them when they leave this earthly scene and enter the presence of God' (Simon Kistemaker, 1 Corinthians, Baker Books, 2002).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I realize that you're answering Hark, but to throw in....
I agree to an extent.

But I think that the KJV renders it just a bit better and agrees with other passages that salvation is an act of God that plays out in a person's lifetime:
In other words, we as believers were saved, are saved and will be saved.

To me, it's all " us which are saved" or "those that be saved", as none of His elect were ever in any danger of not being saved.

Thanks, Dave. It's a bit of a storm in a teacup. I only felt I should react to what @Hark wrote about the modern versions being 'false teachings.' They may (or may not) be in other places, but not in 1 Corinthians 1:18.

 

[robycop3]

Problem is, most KJVOs are unwilling to accept the KJV's imperfections.

 

[Hark]

Contrasting this with " ἀπολλυμένοις" which means " who are perishing" / "them that perish",
I see that the Greek word corresponds with the English phrase, "them that perish", "who are perishing" in many translations.

Greek Concordance: ἀπολλυμένοις (apollymenois) -- 4 Occurrences

To me,
It's the same pattern with the Greek word " σωζομένοις", which means, " who are saved" / "are being saved" ( "are being" meaning "those that be" ).

Greek Concordance: σωζομένοις (sōzomenois) -- 2 Occurrences

They both describe a group that is one or the other...
Not that goes from being one to being the other.

As to the Greek, then let us address a small Greek word which is often left untranslated in English.

de "a primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.:--also, and, but, moreover, now (often unexpressed in English)."

As in referring to our present state along with Paul as unto us that are now saved since we had believed in the preaching of the cross..

Thank you for sharing, but I do not believe everything is considered when going to the Greek for why I believe "unto us which are saved" is the truth in His words rather than "unto us who are being saved" which is not the truth in His words.

 

[Hark]

The Greek Grammar plainly teaches One Person in view, but Kjv has 2 in mind here!

You and anti-KJVers are saying that. I have yet to come across any KJVers as saying that. Even if there is one KJVer saying that, I read it as One because only Jesus Christ is appearing and not the Father. So to me, you are not reading the verse rightly but parroting anti-KJVers when that Great God & Saviour is to Jesus Christ as our blessed hope that is appearing..

 

[Hark]

Your problem is that 1 Corinthians 1:18 does actually say "Are being saved" as in the NKJV and others. The verb is in the present tense, which in Greek is continuous. That it offends your theology does not alter the meaning of the verb.

Let us address the Greek word "de" as defined as "a primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.:--also, and, but, moreover, now (often unexpressed in English)."

So are Biblical scholars in English on top of their game when leaving that word untranslated? I think not.

Since Paul refer to that present state as are saved as including himself of those that believe the preaching of the cross, then he is not referring to those continuously being saved per the preaching of the cross, but what believing the preaching of the cross has done to those that believe in verse 21.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.... .21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

As it is, those in error believe they are in the process of being saved and thus not saved yet for why they use "unto us which are being saved" as supporting their false teaching when clearly it does in modern Bibles BUT NOT in the KJV and a few other modern Bibles..

 

[Hark]

I understand that you don't like the reading of the modern versions (NIV, NKJV, NASB etc.), but whether you like it or not, it is correct. I didn't post to argue theology, but to point out the meaning of the text. However, this may be helpful to you:

Thank you in advance for trying to help me.

Paul uses a variety of tenses to describe our salvation. All these are taken from the NKJV:

I do not consider the NKJV on par with the JKJV. FYI

Romans 8:24; Aorist: 'For we were saved in this hope.' NKJV

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? KJV

Ephesians 2:5, 8; Perfect: 'By grace you have been saved.' NKJV Both NKJV & KJV shown below in comparison.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), NKJV

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved KJV

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NKJV

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: KJV

Titus 3:5, Aorist: 'According to His mercy, He saved us.' NKJV

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; KJV

2 Corinthians 2:15, Present: 'Those who are being saved.' NKJV

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: KJV

Romans 5:9, Future: 'We shall be saved from wrath.' NKJV NKJV in full below.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. NKJV

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. KJV

Romans 11:26, Future: 'All Israel will be saved.' NKJV

Romans 11;26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: KJV

Granted one can find reproofs in scripture in the NKJV as well as other modern bible versions they are using but false teachings are derived from taking verses out of context from the rest of scripture in that modern Bible version that it sows doubts in His words that would have otherwise reprove how they are applying such verses like 1 Corinthians 1:18 & 2 Corinthians 2:15 in that modern Bible version.

Salvation then is Past, Present and Future. I have been saved by the precious blood of Christ; I am being saved as by the power of the Spirit I endure to the end (Matthew 24:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18), and I shall be saved on the Last day when I appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

Past I can agree with but present per Matthew 24:13 is referring to running that race aka abiding in Him as His disciple to escape or to be saved from what is coming on the earth to avoid being left behind.

2 Corinthians 3:18 applies differently and so I do not see that as referring to being saved at all, but being transformed.

When we all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, we are saved but not everyone will be found abiding in Him to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House, but later on after the great tribulation as that vessel unto dishonor but still in His House per 2 Timothy 2:18-21 .Anyone at the judgment seat of Christ are saved or they would not be there.

'

Believers then are saved in principle during their life on earth. Throughout their earthly sojourn they cherish this blessed assurance, for they are on their way to being saved completely (compare Hebrews 1:14). Complete salvation comes to them when they leave this earthly scene and enter the presence of God'

(Simon Kistemaker, 1 Corinthians, Baker Books, 2002).

Being saved completely would suggest salvation by works whereas we are saved as that foundation was laid by Jesus Christ which can never be removed but on the way to Him, our works to shall be judged by what we built on that foundation that determines how we will be received..

In any event, what you shared can be used by the works of Catholicism and other cults when they insist on works being a necessity to being saved. Not sure how you can defend against that or reprove it when what you say and what the NKJV in 1 Corinthians 1:18 & 2 Corinthians 2:15 would say that would support such false teachings whereas the KJV would not.

 

[Hark]

Thanks, Dave. It's a bit of a storm in a teacup. I only felt I should react to what @Hark wrote about the modern versions being 'false teachings.' They may (or may not) be in other places, but not in 1 Corinthians 1:18.

More like being used to support false teachings as it is read plainly in that way in some modern Bibles as not saved yet because Paul and believers "to us who are being saved" whereas the KJV and some modern bibles do not have it as that way but as "unto us which are saved".

Thank you for sharing.

 

[tyndale1946]

Problem is, most KJVOs are unwilling to accept the KJV's imperfections.

No robycop3 the problem is this... I came to the BB many years ago and little did I know when I got here there was a war going on... A vendetta, a battle, on the word of God the KJV I didn't start... I didn't come from any camp, I didn't belong to any KJVO cult... I use the KJV and am now KJVP!... But the P is not for its my Preference, NO!... It for KJV Pure!... The longer you brethren attack it, throw your slings and arrows at it only strengthens my resolve it is what it say it is, the Pure Inspired Word Of God for English speaking people... I have been in the church for over 50 years!... You don't think I know this Bible?... You don't think I know its history?... The Salvation all of us claim was accomplished by the blood of the sinless lamb of God, his ONLY Son Jesus Christ... The KJV the Pure inspired Word Of God came to be from the blood of a Martyr... I know it because I came on here wearing his name... Now, you and your minions leave US KJV brethren alone!... If you have nothing good to say about it, say nothing at all... Brother Glen

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

 

[robycop3]

No robycop3 the problem is this... I came to the BB many years ago and little did I know when I got here there was a war going on... A vendetta, a battle, on the word of God the KJV

The KJV is just an old English translation of the word of God. It's now outta date, left behind by time & language changes.

I didn't start... I didn't come from any camp, I didn't belong to any KJVO cult... I use the KJV and am now KJVP!... But the P is not for its my Preference, NO!... It for KJV Pure!...

It's NOT pure; it has many goofs , booboos, & poor renderings, such as the ones posted elsewhere here.

The longer you brethren attack it, throw your slings and arrows at it only strengthens my resolve it is what it say it is, the Pure Inspired Word Of God for English speaking people...

It is NOT pure & is no more inspired than any other valid version is.

I have been in the church for over 50 years!... You don't think I know this Bible?... You don't think I know its history?... The Salvation all of us claim was accomplished by the blood of the sinless lamb of God, his ONLY Son Jesus Christ... The KJV the Pure inspired Word Of God came to be from the blood of a Martyr... I know it because I came on here wearing his name... Now, you and your minions leave US KJV brethren alone!... If you have nothing good to say about it, say nothing at all... Brother Glen

it's the KJVO MYTH I'm against-the false doctrine that the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible version out there. That doctrine is man-made & an invention of Satan's, as he attempts to cast doubt upon God's word. Now, get it thru your head-THE KJV IS NOT PURE! Not one of you KJVOs can provide one quark of SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for your false doctrine. Evidently, you're in thrall to that myth as much as some others here are. It warps your thinking & fills your head with untrue points.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Yet more proof of your thralldom to the KJVO myth ! The "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" is proven FALSE by the AV 1611 itself. In that version, there's a footnote for the 2nd "them" in V.7 which reads-"Heb. him, I. Euery one of them." which PROVES those men knew that verse is about PEOPLE. They made the footnote because they subbed the plural "them" for the singular "I", knowing the verse is about people & not just one person. That whole "Psalm 12:6-7" blarney comes straight from the "Wilkinson-Ray-Fuller" line of garbage which started the current edition of the KJVO myth. THAT'S the trash you've come to believe, trying to tell us God finalized His word in English in 1611!

If you wish to use only the KJV, fine, but you should get rid of that baleful KJVO myth, as it's CERTAINLY NOT FROM GOD ! !