As a matter of clarification, do you mean repent/repentance as in "repent of your SINS" and believe? My former church taught that, is that your position JSM17 as well?
Darren
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The Thief on the Cross
- Thread starter JSM17
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As a matter of clarification, do you mean repent/repentance as in "repent of your SINS" and believe? My former church taught that, is that your position JSM17 as well?
Darren
Repentance is the act of changing one's mind.
Repentance involves changing one's affections - from earthly things to heavenly things. It involves turning to the living God from a god of self. It is looking unto Christ instead of looking unto another.
Repentance requires the right attitude towards sin. This is Godly sorrow. Repentance is the right attitude toward God, it is a return to God. Repentance is the right attitude toward self. The Prodigal Son came to himself. Repentance is the right attitude toward others. The Phillipian jailer took Paul and Silas the same hour of the night and washed their stripes.
Repentance involves changing one's affections - from earthly things to heavenly things. It involves turning to the living God from a god of self. It is looking unto Christ instead of looking unto another.
Repentance requires the right attitude towards sin. This is Godly sorrow. Repentance is the right attitude toward God, it is a return to God. Repentance is the right attitude toward self. The Prodigal Son came to himself. Repentance is the right attitude toward others. The Phillipian jailer took Paul and Silas the same hour of the night and washed their stripes.
And you don't think that when a sinner is saved by faith without works by God's unmerited favour they have a change of heart, mind and life as a result of what God has done in them? Did the thief on the cross repent in order to be saved? You're not suggesting that the act of repentence preceding saving faith is that a sinner must reform themselves before they can be saved? Much like a sinner has to prepare themselves morally and mentally to believe?? They have to try to be good and change their lives to make their faith genuine and later they may exercise saving faith eventually IF they repent successfully??
Darren
ray Marshall
New Member
Remember FAITH is one of the fruit of the spirit. Faith comes after one has been regenerated, or born again.
The verse somewhere says thay "If ye love me, keep my commandmens."
Not keep my commandment and pretty soon ye will learn to love me. One must be born of the spirit before they can Love.
The verse somewhere says thay "If ye love me, keep my commandmens."
Not keep my commandment and pretty soon ye will learn to love me. One must be born of the spirit before they can Love.
If regeneration preceeds faith and if being born of the Spirit preceeds love then you have a regenerated saved person who does not love God. Because you say that regeneration preceeds faith and love.
Is it really possible to be regenerated without a love for God? Is it really possible to repent without a love for God. What motivates a man to a have a change of mind and a change of heart?
Can a saved regenerated man be saved and not love God, since you say that love follows regeneration.
I say that no one can be born of God without loving God, that is why we turn from ourselves to follow God, because God first loved us and has shown His love by sending His Son for us. I come to faith in God through His word, which shows me and convicts me of who I am and what God has done for me. Love is an action first done by God and when I believe, I believe that He loves me and that love for me bring forth godly sorrow in me which teaches me to love Him for His sacrifice, in turn I have a change of heart. Love motivates results in action.
Is it really possible to be regenerated without a love for God? Is it really possible to repent without a love for God. What motivates a man to a have a change of mind and a change of heart?
Can a saved regenerated man be saved and not love God, since you say that love follows regeneration.
I say that no one can be born of God without loving God, that is why we turn from ourselves to follow God, because God first loved us and has shown His love by sending His Son for us. I come to faith in God through His word, which shows me and convicts me of who I am and what God has done for me. Love is an action first done by God and when I believe, I believe that He loves me and that love for me bring forth godly sorrow in me which teaches me to love Him for His sacrifice, in turn I have a change of heart. Love motivates results in action.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. The statement of Christ - "Verily I say unto you today you SHALL be with me in paradise" does not negate the Gospel, as it turns out, it illustrates it.
2. Repent IS a Bible doctrine as it turns out. And Acts 2 states that it is for the forgiveness of sins.
3. Romans 10 is also "biblical" stating that with the heart we believe and with the mouth we confess "RESULTING in salvation".
4. 1John 1:9 is "biblical" as it turns out - "IF we CONFESS our sins He IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
John the baptizer's message was "repent" so also was Christ who began preaching the same "Gospel of the kingdom" message once John was put in prison.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. Many "most" Calvinists admit that the John 6 "drawing" of God fully enables all the "choice" that depravity disables.
2. John 12:32 points out that ALL mankind is drawn - so then ALL are enabled to choose even though ALL are not saved.
3. John 1 speaks to the point that Christ is the light that "coming into the world enlightens EVERY one of mankind". That supernatural drawing and enlightenment enables choice but it leaves it for the human to choose you this day whom you will serve so that whosoever believes might then have eternal life. With the heart we believe and with the mouth we confess resulting in salvation Romans 10.
in Christ,
Bob
Only if repentance is Biblically defined, is it necessary.
Nowhere in the NT do we find any command for one to repent of their sins in order to be saved. That is not a Biblical command, nor a requirement of salvation.
Rev 9:20-21
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
NKJV
If they would have repented of these SINS could they have been saved?
You're completely missing the point. Instead of going to a text that does NOT teach salvation why not go to a text that does teach salvation and that will answer the question for you. If you want to use revelations to prove salvation then you will have to deal with the 144,000 Jews whom were sealed and the same 144,000 were saved.
Sealed -
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
The same were saved -
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Romans is the most solid book on Soteriology in the bible why not walk through there verse by verse and you'll have all your questions answered??
Darren
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The command to repent is for the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is simply the outward sign that the repentance and forgiveness has taken place.
John follows that same order - repent and then forgiveness 1John 1:9
Your argument above must imagine a case of being saved but not forgiven of any sin -- and then someone repents for forgiveness of sin. But in fact a key purpose of salvation is to avoid the condemnation of sin - the 2nd death. There is no such thing as saved but still owing the 2nd death for all of your own sins. If such were the case - what are you saved from???
Now more Bible
Refusing to repent - is to remain condemned and lost.
Matt 11:20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
It is the sinner that is called to repentance.
Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
in Christ,
Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
The gospel commission -
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Paul summarizes his own Gospel ministry -
Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
2Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Rev 2:16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
Bob
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Taking Scripture out of context is your forte.
Do you plan to be there during the midst of the Tribulation. I don't.
These verses are obviously not applicable. They have nothing to do with salvation, only the inevitable putting off of judgment.
That wasn't my argument.
Is there anywhere in the Bible that demands a person must repent of their sins in order to be saved. The answer is no.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
DHK, you say:
Oh my grief!(Charlie Brown speaks) I cannot believe what you say. Your saying is gravely error.
In Ezekiel 3:18-21 "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yetif thou warn the wicked, and he TURN not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his SIN, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not remembered, but his blood will I require at thine hand. Neverthless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned, also thou hast delivered thy soul."
This passage , the word 'repent' is not find there. But, word, "turn" is explined same meaning as repent. This passage tells us, our responsiblity to warn to every person that they must repent from their sins, to save their souls.
This passage is clearly described that repent from sins is a matter of salvation issue.
Not only wicked repent from their wicked, also, it warns if a righteous person turn from his righteous way, return back to sins again, it shall bring forth to death. Any Christians who turn away from God and commited sinning shall bring forth to death in James 1:15-16.
Also, in Ezekiel 33:18-19 say: "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby."
This passage shows us that salvation is clearly conditional with warning. It warns that, if the righteous(saint/Christian) turns from righteousness, and committing wicked life, it shall lead person to death according James 1:15.
Also, Ezk. 33:19 tells us very clear that a wicked turns from evil ways, and to do the right way, person's soul shall saved.
YES, Bible commands us that we all must repent of sins, in order to be saved. That is God's Will. In Acts 17:30 - "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent."
Repentance is required for salvation that we must turn away from sins, and put on Christ, and walk in the spirit daily. Bible teaching us very clear.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Oh my grief!(Charlie Brown speaks) I cannot believe what you say. Your saying is gravely error.
In Ezekiel 3:18-21 "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yetif thou warn the wicked, and he TURN not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his SIN, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not remembered, but his blood will I require at thine hand. Neverthless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned, also thou hast delivered thy soul."
This passage , the word 'repent' is not find there. But, word, "turn" is explined same meaning as repent. This passage tells us, our responsiblity to warn to every person that they must repent from their sins, to save their souls.
This passage is clearly described that repent from sins is a matter of salvation issue.
Not only wicked repent from their wicked, also, it warns if a righteous person turn from his righteous way, return back to sins again, it shall bring forth to death. Any Christians who turn away from God and commited sinning shall bring forth to death in James 1:15-16.
Also, in Ezekiel 33:18-19 say: "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby."
This passage shows us that salvation is clearly conditional with warning. It warns that, if the righteous(saint/Christian) turns from righteousness, and committing wicked life, it shall lead person to death according James 1:15.
Also, Ezk. 33:19 tells us very clear that a wicked turns from evil ways, and to do the right way, person's soul shall saved.
YES, Bible commands us that we all must repent of sins, in order to be saved. That is God's Will. In Acts 17:30 - "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent."
Repentance is required for salvation that we must turn away from sins, and put on Christ, and walk in the spirit daily. Bible teaching us very clear.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Perhaps I should have clarified myself and said NT. This is speaking to OT Israel, and is not applicable to the gospel message of today. If it was, why carry a NT at all?
DeafPosttrib
New Member
DHK,
You saying of this Ezekiel chapter 3 and 33 was apply to OT Israel.
This is dispensationalism type of intepreting. It is dangerous.
James 1:15-16 agrees with Ezekiel chapter 33 that if the righteouss perosn turns from righteous ways, and committing in wicked ways, it shall bring forth person's soul to death, will be end up in everlasting fire.
Throughout whole Bible from OT to NT teaching us that salvation is conditional that we must meet it in order to have eternal life by obey the gospel.
Bible teaches us that repent is required for salvation, by turn away from sins. If we refuse turn away from sins, and want to stay in sinning, then it shall bring forth us to everlasting fire. Very simple and plain.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
You saying of this Ezekiel chapter 3 and 33 was apply to OT Israel.
This is dispensationalism type of intepreting. It is dangerous.
James 1:15-16 agrees with Ezekiel chapter 33 that if the righteouss perosn turns from righteous ways, and committing in wicked ways, it shall bring forth person's soul to death, will be end up in everlasting fire.
Throughout whole Bible from OT to NT teaching us that salvation is conditional that we must meet it in order to have eternal life by obey the gospel.
Bible teaches us that repent is required for salvation, by turn away from sins. If we refuse turn away from sins, and want to stay in sinning, then it shall bring forth us to everlasting fire. Very simple and plain.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
,Originally Posted by BobRyan
The command to repent is for the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is simply the outward sign that the repentance and forgiveness has taken place.
That was just one of mine.
The answer is "yes" - read the list of texts given if you do not believe it. Here they are "again".
(removing the one point here DHK responded to -- so we can keep the discussion moving)
John follows that same order - repent and then forgiveness 1John 1:9
Your argument above must imagine a case of being saved but not forgiven of any sin -- and then someone repents for forgiveness of sin. But in fact a key purpose of salvation is to avoid the condemnation of sin - the 2nd death. There is no such thing as saved but still owing the 2nd death for all of your own sins. If such were the case - what are you saved from???
Refusing to repent - is to remain condemned and lost.
Matt 11:20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
It is the sinner that is called to repentance.
Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
in Christ,
Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
The gospel commission -
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Paul summarizes his own Gospel ministry -
Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
2Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Rev 2:16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In fact it shows the person in Ezek 33 "losing forgivenes" just as we see in Ezek 18 and in Matt 18 in the New Testament.
in Christ,
Bob
Repenting for eis (unto, or because of) your sins is not the same as: repenting of your sins. Nowhere does it say to repent of your sins. The interpretation of this verse aligns perfectly with the teaching of John the Baptist:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
--The same Greek word is used (eis). Why did John baptize: so that they would receive repentance, or because they had repented. The answer is obvious. He had told them: "Bring forth fruits meet for repentance," or fruit because you have repented. He would not baptize them until he saw the fruit of repentance in their lives. The same was true with Peter.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
--He baptized them because the were saved, because (eis) they had already received the remission of sins. Like John the Baptist, Peter had already seen the fruit of repentance, the fact that they had already received the remission of sins.
The answer is no. You have not produced one text of Scripture that says one must repent of their sins in order to be saved. I don't believe that you know what repentance means.
1. Acts 2:38, I have already dealt with. It does not say that one must repent of all their sins in order to be saved. Read it again. It does not say that.
John does not say that one must repent of all their sins in order to be saved. In fact John says nothing about salvation. He is writing to saved individuals about the restoration of fellowship with God, not about unbelievers. He addresses them as children, brethren--terms never used for unbelievers.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I am saved from the wages of sin--eternal death or eternal separation from God. Instead God gives me a gift: eternal life, life that will never end. It is the eternal security of the believer. Christ does not lie. It is a gift, never to taken away again. If it was taken away or in any way lost then it wouldn't be eternal, and Christ would be a liar. Eternal means eternal. Is Christ true to His Word or not?
As far as IJohn 1:9 is concerned it is speaking not of salvation but of a believers walk with God. It is not a salvational matter. It is a walk with Christ that John is speaking about.
But it doesn't say repent of all your sins does it? Why do you take Scripture out of its context?
Repent of what? Repent of all yours sins in order to be saved? It doesn't say that does it? Again more Scripture taken out of context.
And where in these verses does it say that one must repent of all their sins in order to be saved? It doesn't. More Scripture taken out of context. Your good at that aren't you.
Do these also say: Repent of all your sins and you shall be saved? No, they don't. You strike out again. This is getting tiring--you taking Scripture out of its context.
Paul uses the word repentance, but does he say to repent of all your sins in order to be saved? The answer is clearly NO. When will you learn?
Clearly taken out of context, as the verse is addressed to Christians.
Even if you disagree on that point it does not say that one must repent of all their sins does it? Not once, anywhere, does it say that.
It doesn't say repent of all your sins in order to be saved here either. You haven't produced a single verse that says that one must repent of all their sins; not one.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
DHK,
I ask you questions.
What is a 'repent'?
Do the Early Church people during between 30 A.D. to 95 A.D., while N.T. books were continue written, - understood the word, "repent"?
What is the repent of???
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I ask you questions.
What is a 'repent'?
Do the Early Church people during between 30 A.D. to 95 A.D., while N.T. books were continue written, - understood the word, "repent"?
What is the repent of???
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!