The Thief on the Cross

[RAdam]

Obviously you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

The two thieves were railing on Him. Suddenly one stops, calls Jesus Lord, and mentions that He has a kingdom. Where did this come from? He wasn't preached to on the cross. One minute he is railing on Jesus, the next he is professing his belief that Jesus is Lord. Something changed, and that change was pretty dramatic and sudden. Obviously this change wasn't brought about by man as there is nothing there in the context to suggest that. It must have been brought about by God. Hence, God is the one who revealed to him who Jesus was, that He had a kingdom, and made Jesus the desire of his heart. How did you come to believe in Jesus? The same way the thief did. Paul says we believe according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead.

 

[JSM17]

The two thieves were railing on Him. Suddenly one stops, calls Jesus Lord, and mentions that He has a kingdom. Where did this come from? He wasn't preached to on the cross. One minute he is railing on Jesus, the next he is professing his belief that Jesus is Lord. Something changed, and that change was pretty dramatic and sudden. Obviously this change wasn't brought about by man as there is nothing there in the context to suggest that. It must have been brought about by God. Hence, God is the one who revealed to him who Jesus was, that He had a kingdom, and made Jesus the desire of his heart. How did you come to believe in Jesus? The same way the thief did. Paul says we believe according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead.

First of all I think the point is thae fact that the thief showed repentance.
Secondly, how he came to know and understand these things is not given to us, so it could have come way of him knowing about Jesus before had and then realizing the reality of the truth, or perhaps Jesus spoke to him, which we do not have recorded if He did.
Thirdly, we must remeber that they spent a lot of time on that cross and certain things happened, such as the sky darkening from the sixth hour until the ninth when Jesus dies.
The point was already mad about the centurion, but notice that Lukes account says that the centurion saw what had happened. What happened to make this man confess this?

I think the point about the fact that many followed to gather around Jesus, this was no small thing, so whatever the theif saw or knew was enough to lead him to repent and confess. If they had a conversation and they did, it is not beyond us to think that Jesus showing compassion to this man by proclaiming His purpose and position as savior or King.

But again we do not have all this so the point is not that we need to know how but the fact that it happened. Certainly if the man professed these things, then it was revealed through Christ by the Father.

 

[TCGreek]

The Thief that knew Jesus
Matthew 27:38-44; Mark 15:27-32; Luke 23:39-43; John 19:18

Jesus was crucified between two robbers (Matt.27:38) and they both insulted Him (Matt. 27:44; Mk.15:32) just as the crowd did (v.44). When Jesus was crucified between two thieves scripture was being fulfilled which said “He was numbered with transgressors” (Mk. 15:28; Isa. 53:12). However in Luke’s account of the Gospel he states that as one thief insults Jesus the other defend the Lord (Luke 23:39). The one thief seems to have a change of heart (v.40), Why?

It is clear that this thief came to faith or had a belief in Christ, either way he repented and confessed, which is not salvation by faith alone. You see that even the thief's faith was being perfected by works: Repentance and confession.

You clearly do not understand the doctrine of salvation.

 

[Darron Steele]

You clearly do not understand the doctrine of salvation.

That is apparent.

S/he makes "faith alone" exclude repentance, which means faith does not include repentance.

The notion that a person can believe on Jesus Christ as Lord and not simultaneously repent of living out of harmony with His will is nonsense.

There is no example of such a thing in Scripture, and it defies common sense.

 

[TCGreek]

That is apparent.

S/he makes "faith alone" exclude repentance, which means faith does not include repentance.

The notion that a person can believe on Jesus Christ as Lord and not simultaneously repent of living out of harmony with His will is nonsense.

There is no example of such a thing in Scripture, and it defies common sense.

I'm with you.

That's why we often find repentance and faith together with repentance preceding faith, because to put one's faith in Jesus to save them means simultaneously turning away from something or someone else.

That's biblical, saving faith indeed.

 

[JSM17]

Is faith something we do? Is repentance something we do? Is there no cooperation between God and man? does God believe and repent for us or is it something we must do?

Faith come ffrom hearing the word of God, by hearing the word of God we develop godly sorrow, it is the word of God that makes us sorry for what we have done and who we are.

Would you not say that there are works of God that are commanded by God for us to do? Why is it through out the NT that men were called to believe if it were not something that they had to do?

There is an assumption that all works are are void of God requiring man to actually do anything in being saved. We are not saved my works of merit (Eph. 2:8, 9), or by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5). But by the works of God that he has commanded us to obey.

If faith is not a work then you have no part in believing, therefore God must somehow do it for you, but this is not what the scriptures teach.

If the Holy Spirit must regenerate you in order for you to repent and belief then are saved beforeyou even belief and repent. So God saves you then you believe and repent?

Then God chooses not to regenerate many, they cannot come to faith and repentance because the Holy Spirit did not work in them? Then what purpose does the word have in coming to faith? Do I actually have to hear the word at all then and if I do is that something that I am actually doing?

 

[Darron Steele]

...
There is an assumption that all works are are void of God requiring man to actually do anything in being saved.

No; it is explicit statements of Scripture, such as in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8-10 which you alter.

We are not saved my works of merit (Eph. 2:8, 9),

the JSM17 alteration of Ephesians 2:8-10

`for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works of merit, so that no one may boast himself. For in Christ Jesus, God made us new people unto good works of merit, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them'​

So, we are saved `unto good works of merit' so that we may boast before God. Christ’s servants have no boast toward Him -- Luke 17:10.

The Bible at Ephesians 2:8-10

“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).​

The term "works" means exactly what it says.

We are saved "unto good works" but "not a result of works."

or by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5). But by the works of God that he has commanded us to obey.

So, "the works of God that he has commanded us to obey" are not "works of righteousness."

God commands us to do works that are not righteous. Nonsense.

If faith is not a work then you have no part in believing,

Huh? Nonsense.

So you are saying that despite the contrast of Ephesians 2:8-10, faith actually is a work. By some game of sophistry, you would have us say `the passage says this, but we cannot believe it.'

I, and others, will just go with the Bible.

therefore God must somehow do it for you, but this is not what the scriptures teach.

Neat tactic: create a nonsensical position for your opponents and then `refute' it.

It is easier than actually debating your opponents' real position. If refuting the real thing seems impossible, create a position your opponents do not hold, claim that they hold it, and go after it.

As the rest of that post follows from your little stunt, it merits no further comment.

 

[DHK]

If faith is not a work then you have no part in believing, therefore God must somehow do it for you, but this is not what the scriptures teach.

Faith is not a work. How can it be a work. How do you measure it? In pounds, in inches, in mph.? how? Let's put in perspective. Every day you turn on your computer. You press the power button. That is work. It takes force and time. That can be measured. It also takes faith. You have the faith or confidence that your computer will boot up. If your computer does not boot up have you lost all faith and will never touch another computer the rest of your life (the parallel of those who believe you can lose your salvation). Or do you maintain your belief in your computer and find out what is wrong and fix it. It may simply have to be rebooted. Maybe it is old and you have to buy a new one (a last resort), but your belief in computers is still constant. You have not lost your faith. The only reason you would buy a new one is that you know that man is fallible; what he makes if fallible, and all things degenerate, and break down. With God that is not so. His promises never fail. He never fails. He does not break down. What he does is forever and eternal. If you can have faith in a computer (or computers) you can have faith in God. The faith is intangible, unmeasurable. It is not a work, like turning the computer on.

You can turn the tap on to get a glass of water (a work). But the expectation, the trust, the confidence, the faith, that the water will come out of the tap cannot be measured. That is faith. It is not from God. Faith in God, as an unbeliever comes from you. It is not from God. After salvation God gives believers a gift of faith which can be measured. If you have faith AS a mustard seed... But faith before salvation does not come from God.

If the Holy Spirit must regenerate you in order for you to repent and belief then are saved beforeyou even belief and repent. So God saves you then you believe and repent?

This does not happen. Some extreme Calvinists believe this. But regeneration happens at the same time as salvation.

Then God chooses not to regenerate many, they cannot come to faith and repentance because the Holy Spirit did not work in them? Then what purpose does the word have in coming to faith? Do I actually have to hear the word at all then and if I do is that something that I am actually doing?

The Holy Spirit draws or convicts people. He convicts people of their sin. But the sinner must realize that he needs a Saviour, and must of his own free will choose to accept that Saviour as his own, based on the atoning work of what Christ has done for him. Salvation is a gift, a free gift. Gifts don't cost anything. They are free, not to be worked for, accepted by faith, and faith alone.

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourself. it is the gift of God, not of works.

You can't work for a gift. You accept it by faith.
The subject of this verse is salvation. The gift is salvation. It is obtained through faith and not of works. The verse is plain.
There is a period after verse 9, indicating that verse 10 begins a new thought. Also, the "for" meaning "because" indicates a result of what has already been said before. It is the beginning of a new thought. Verse 8 and 9 are one sentence, one thought. Verse 10 is separate.

 

[TCGreek]

Is faith something we do? Is repentance something we do? Is there no cooperation between God and man? does God believe and repent for us or is it something we must do?

Faith come ffrom hearing the word of God, by hearing the word of God we develop godly sorrow, it is the word of God that makes us sorry for what we have done and who we are.

Would you not say that there are works of God that are commanded by God for us to do? Why is it through out the NT that men were called to believe if it were not something that they had to do?

There is an assumption that all works are are void of God requiring man to actually do anything in being saved. We are not saved my works of merit (Eph. 2:8, 9), or by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5). But by the works of God that he has commanded us to obey.

If faith is not a work then you have no part in believing, therefore God must somehow do it for you, but this is not what the scriptures teach.

If the Holy Spirit must regenerate you in order for you to repent and belief then are saved beforeyou even belief and repent. So God saves you then you believe and repent?

Then God chooses not to regenerate many, they cannot come to faith and repentance because the Holy Spirit did not work in them? Then what purpose does the word have in coming to faith? Do I actually have to hear the word at all then and if I do is that something that I am actually doing?

Works do not apply to salvation but to sanctification. Eph. 2:8-10 makes this ever so clear: I'm not saved by works but unto works.

Yes, God doesn't repent and believe for us. We must do that for ourselves.

Scripture says that God opened the heart of Lydia to come to faith in Jesus (Acts 16:15).

 

[JSM17]

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

So when Paul says that not of yourselves, is he refering to grace and faith or just grace, is it our faith if it is not of yourselves? Everyone points to this faith as being subjective, yet whatever faith it is Paul makes it clear that it is not of yourselves. The majority text has definite article making faith in this passage objective and not subjective. If it were talking about my subjective faith saving me then Paul could not say "That not of yourselves", unless somohow we are not actually the ones that believe. Which is a work all day long, using your mind to come to conclusions even about God is work, something that we must work in our minds to understand through the word of God.

It was interesting last time someone broke John 6:29 down for me to explain away the fact that faith is a work because our Lord said so. It would be nice again to see how that pans out. But I'll start a new thread for that.

 

[DHK]

So when Paul says that not of yourselves, is he refering to grace and faith or just grace,

He is not referring to either. He is referring to salvation. Grace and faith are the means of salvation. Christ provided salvation by the work he did on the cross. That he did by grace.
By faith we accept it. What do we accept? Salvation
How is it accomplished? By grace.
The subject of the passage is salvation.
For by grace are ye saved through faith.

 

[BobRyan]

Obviously you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

The two thieves were railing on Him. Suddenly one stops, calls Jesus Lord, and mentions that He has a kingdom. Where did this come from? He wasn't preached to on the cross. One minute he is railing on Jesus, the next he is professing his belief that Jesus is Lord. Something changed, and that change was pretty dramatic and sudden. Obviously this change wasn't brought about by man as there is nothing there in the context to suggest that. It must have been brought about by God. Hence, God is the one who revealed to him who Jesus was, that He had a kingdom, and made Jesus the desire of his heart. How did you come to believe in Jesus? The same way the thief did. Paul says we believe according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead.

Amen. Preach it!

 

[BobRyan]

First of all I think the point is thae fact that the thief showed repentance.
Secondly, how he came to know and understand these things is not given to us, so it could have come way of him knowing about Jesus before had and then realizing the reality of the truth, or perhaps Jesus spoke to him, which we do not have recorded if He did.
Thirdly, we must remeber that they spent a lot of time on that cross and certain things happened, such as the sky darkening from the sixth hour until the ninth when Jesus dies.
The point was already mad about the centurion, but notice that Lukes account says that the centurion saw what had happened. What happened to make this man confess this?
.

True - both the Theif (repentant theif) and the believing Centurion saw the same things, were impressed by the Holy Spirit to "believe" and acted on that faith. Thus fulfilling the Romans 10 conditions for Salvation.

Christ said in John 16 that the Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment".

The soul that responds to the supernatural drawing of God and chooses to submit, chooses to believe, chooses to repent - will believe with the heart and confess with their mouth "resulting in salvation" as Romans 10 states.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JSM17]

The soul that responds to the supernatural drawing of God

Does God supernaturally draw all men or just some?

DHK WROTE:

By faith we accept it.

In accepting it are you actually doing something in order to receive it?

Salvation is by grace through the faith! The faith is objective not subjective. In the context of the Greek it is not a faith by man but salvation come through the Gospel. Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Drawing all men through His Son through the word of God, not by some working of the Holy Spirit apart from the word. That is exactly what some are trying to say about the thief on the cross.

 

[DHK]

DHK WROTE:


In accepting it are you actually doing something in order to receive it?

Salvation is by grace through the faith! The faith is objective not subjective. In the context of the Greek it is not a faith by man but salvation come through the Gospel. Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Drawing all men through His Son through the word of God, not by some working of the Holy Spirit apart from the word. That is exactly what some are trying to say about the thief on the cross.

By faith a child receives a birthday gift from her parents.
By faith the child instinctively knows that the gift is something good and not bad.
By faith the child knows that her parents will not harm her, but only do that which is for her good.
By faith she recieves the gift.

She did not work for the gift; she simply received.
She did not have to do chores for the gift she simply received it.
There was nothing in the way of work or doing anything on her part that could be considered work. She simply received it. "Receiving" a free gift is not considered work.
The faith or confidence that she had in her parents that they would give her something good and not evil is obviously not a work, not doing anything.

Please learn what "work" is; what "faith" is.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[TCGreek]

So when Paul says that not of yourselves, is he refering to grace and faith or just grace, is it our faith if it is not of yourselves? Everyone points to this faith as being subjective, yet whatever faith it is Paul makes it clear that it is not of yourselves. The majority text has definite article making faith in this passage objective and not subjective. If it were talking about my subjective faith saving me then Paul could not say "That not of yourselves", unless some how we are not actually the ones that believe. Which is a work all day long, using your mind to come to conclusions even about God is work, something that we must work in our minds to understand through the word of God.</quote>

Even if the MT has faith with the definite article doesn't mean that it is not subject.

Not the definite article by itself but the context that tells us whether its presence make a noun definite or not.

The definite article has multiple functions in NT Greek.

Let's grant the present of the definite article and we still have: "your faith."

Why? The definite article usually functions as a possessive pronoun and the context compels this.

At any rate, Paul's emphasis is on our subjective faith vs our works.

<quote>It was interesting last time someone broke John 6:29 down for me to explain away the fact that faith is a work because our Lord said so. It would be nice again to see how that pans out. But I'll start a new thread for that.

Again, consider the context: Jesus is clearly using play-on words, not saying that faith is a work of merit or any such thing.

In other words, not works of miracle, but the work of faith in Jesus.

Also, consider faith in the larger context of Scripture.

 

[RAdam]

"Does God supernaturally draw all men or just some?"

All that were given from Father to Son are irrestibly drawn.

 

[DHK]

"Does God supernaturally draw all men or just some?"

All that were given from Father to Son are irrestibly drawn.

You are adding to the Word of God. The word "irresistable" is not in that verse, nor is taught. Man is quite able to resist the Holy Spirit and has been doing all throughout ages.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[JSM17]

You are adding to the Word of God. The word "irresistable" is not in that verse, nor is taught. Man is quite able to resist the Holy Spirit and has been doing all throughout ages.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

So the question stands; how does God draw men?

When man resists the Holy Spirit how is He resisted, is God trying to draw them through His Spirit in their hearts and man is just fighting a pull on their hearts?

I am under the conviction that God draws man to Himself through His word today, that is why we preach and evangelize with the words of God. The word was given to the Apostles and inspired writers revealing God's will, this was done through the H.S.. When Jesus said that the H.S. would convict the world of sin how would this be done?

Apart from the word of God how can someone know that God is drawing him?

So how was it that these men and their fathers resisted the H.S.?

 

[RAdam]

The greek word rendered "draw" there is helko. This word is used later in John when Jesus is arrested to describe what Peter did to his sword. He drew it. How did he draw (helko) his sword? Did he entice it, invite it, or beg it to come out of its scabbard? No, he drew (literally dragged) it out of the scabbard with an irrestible power. The sword had not the power to resist. Alright, it is used again still later in John to describe what Peter did to the net that was filled with fish when Jesus, standing on the bank, instructed them to cast the net on the right side. He drew the net to the land. Again, how did Simon Peter draw the net? Did he ask, invite, offer, or beg the net? No, he drew it irrestibly. It is used again in Acts 16 to describe what the masters of the damsel possessed with the spirit of divination did to Paul and Silas. They drew them into the marketplace before the rulers. Again, how did these men draw Paul and Silas?

Every single time helko appears in scripture it describes a drawing, or a dragging, that is not resisted. It describes a drawing that is efficacious.

As far as Acts 7:51 goes, it has been clearly proven in times past by many able ministers of Jesus Christ that this passage is not talking about resisting the Holy Spirit in regeneration, but merely the outward ministry of the word. This is proven by Paul, who was then present. He resisted at this time, consenting to the murder of Stephen. Later, on the road to Damascus, he is irrestibly drawn by God in regeneration, and goes on to preach the faith which once he tried to destroy.