OldRegular
Well-Known Member
When you respond to my posts 118 and 119 perhaps we can continue this discussion if it can be called that!
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The two witnesses
- Thread starter evangelist6589
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When you respond to my posts 118 and 119 perhaps we can continue this discussion if it can be called that!
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I understand plain English and what Henry says is that the church will be caught up. That she will be seen in Heaven prior to the judgment of the unbelievers and satan, all of which occurs in Revelation 20 as a literal judgment upon the literal earth. He saw the church in Heaven with Christ when the judgment was taking place and he saw a real Beast and False prophet on the earth. His commentaries show exactly that.
In post 37 you state Jesus is already reigning, then in 39 you say "Matthew 24 tells us primarily of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. I believe there is also mention of the return of Jesus Christ at the time of the general Resurrection and Judgment. {See Below.}" this lead me to understand that you were saying Jesus has been reigning for 2000 years and that you saw it as 70 A.D. for the Kingdom, that is because you continually use Mat 24 as your proof test. Now that I reread it I see you were saying that Matt. 24 was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., but have said exactly when satan was bound in chains and cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years as Revelation 20 states. So when do you see the Kingdom reign of Christ starting and the binding of satan for 1000 years as revelation 20 states.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You can read in my post #112 Matthew's commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:16ff. His comments show clearly that he is a historic or covenant premillennial in his eschatology. He is not a pre-tribber who believes the Church is an interruption in God's plan for national Israel. Now you can continue to foolishly argue that Henry supports your pre-trib-dispensational doctrine but you are wrong.
I don't say Jesus Christ is already reigning, Scripture does:
Matthew 28:18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
John 12:30-32
30. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Ephesians 1:17-23
17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
1 Peter 3:21, 22
21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Now I have shown the Scripture. You believe what you wish.
I have already posted Scripture on the binding of Satan and presented Hoekema's comments on the subject but you will continue to believe what you have been indoctrinated in, pre-trib-dispensationalism fathered by John Nelson Darby!
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That reigning has nothing to do with His reign in Revelation 20, which will last for 1000 years. O.T. and N.T. scripture is clear Christ will reign in Jerusalem upon the throne of David for 1000 years. I have given you scripture from Isaiah and others as well as the Revelation 20 passages. Christ in chapter 19 comes to earth with an army clothed in white raiment. He defeats the armies of the unholy trinity and cast the Beast and False Prophet alive into the Lake of Fire. Then chapter 20 says satan in bound for 1000 years, while there are thrones upon the earth in Jerusalem. Isaiah backs this up, the scriptures are in my many post on this thread. Scripture upon scripture shows Christ will reign on this earth, yet you say from your interpretation or is Anthony A. Hoekema that is driving your insatiable belief in an already reigning Christ and that there is no 1000 reign, even though O.T. and N.T. scripture shows it to be so.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So God is not God in your belief system and the above Scripture is false in your belief system. You are so indoctrinated in that false doctrine of Darby and Scofield that nothing Scripture says can penetrate the wall you people build up around yourselves. You really are afraid to discuss Scripture. I believe that is the reason you are so mean spirited!
Dr. Thomas Ice is a pre-trib-dispensational writer. You should read what he says about how Darby came up with his false doctrine at
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf
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Again not sure why you continue to hit on Darby, I have barely read anything written by Him. Henry is clear there is a tribulation, there is a catching away of the church. All before the Tribulation. Henry believes in a literal beast and false prophet. He sees a literal 1000 year reign and all written before Darby ever developed whatever you are so dead set against. Isaiah says there will be a 1000 year reign. Daniel says the beast will set up the abomination of desolation, and Christ said that will be a sign of the end, so as of Christ time the Beast hadn't appeared yet Christ said it would happen. all these scriptures have been in my previous post I will not post them again.
God is in Control of everything and He is God in my belief. His plan for man's salvation was that ALL come to repentance, as Peter says. Jesus became the Propitiation for the sins of the world. He paid for all the sins everyone commits, according to Christ in John 3:17 & 18, everyone is condemned already if they haven't believed on Him. That has nothing to do with the Kingdom and Christ reigning.
Nowhere in any of my post have I been mean spirited, I haven't called you stupid or Ignorant nothing like that. I have been asking questions just as you asked me here, you question was "So God is not God in your belief system and the above Scripture is false in your belief system." that is not mean spirited it is asking how someone understands what they think I believe and here is my rebuttal to your question.
All power is given to Jesus, He has had all Power since eternity past, after all He created the world and man, the heavens and earth. God the Father said let it be and Jesus God the Son created it.
One of your capitalized verses says the prince of the world being cast out. Cast out from what or were would be the question. From scripture we know he is still deceiving this world, we see ISIS as proof of that. We know He is still the Prince and power of this world even today. It was so when the book of Revelation was written. He still has access to heaven even today, Revelation 12 tells us so,
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
This occurs right before the Beast comes to power at the mid-point of the Tribulation, that is at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Satan is not bound at this current time and Revelation 12 proves it to be so.
Then Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
The Beast one of the unholy trinity comes forth and deceives the nation, satan is now confined to the earth as Michael prevailed in chapter 12 and cast him and his angels out of heaven.
He cannot be bound at this current time. the writing of this Prophecy of Jesus Christ as transcribed by John was written in the 1st century, in the 90's. Satan wasn't bound at the time of this writing, so when do you see Him being bound and not having access to heaven and not being able to deceive the nations as chapter 13 says happens?
The church is the body of Christ, the representation of what He did on the cross for mankind's salvation, she is also the Bride made up of all Born again believers, that is all who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet He is there until all things be fulfilled, then Christ will come until then He is seated at the Fathers Right hand
Hebrews 4:12-14,
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
This says Christ is seated by the fathers throne expecting His enemies to be made His footstool. That means at the time of this writing satan was yet to be bound. Over and over scripture makes it clear satan has not been bound for 2000, he hasn't been bound yet, but it is coming, once the Tribulation ends, he will be bound while Christ reigns upon the earth for 1000 years. Then satan will be loosed, muster an army and try one last time to overthrow Christ as they encompass Jerusalem we see in Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Satan will have one last try to overthrow God as well aas Christ. Notice they encompass the earth, the attack is against Christ and His Saints who are on the earth. Satan's last chance to be exalted above the heavens, he will fail and be cast into the Lake of Fire forever. Scripture is clear, THERE IS A GOD and HE is in Control. He has not stopped allowing satan to deceive the nations not yet, but that time is coming.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If you are going to misrepresent what Matthew Henry says further discussion is useless. Henry is not a pre-tribber and that is a fact. He is clearly talking about the Second Coming in his understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:16ff and that is the truth. He most definitely is not talking about a secret "snatching-away" of the Church. Simply read the part of his commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:16ff that you deliberately omitted and I presented.
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Fact of the matter I am not sure that Matthew was a historic or covenant premillennialist given the following:
http://www.sounddoctrine.net/LIBRARY/Bible Studies/MHenry-biography.htm
More of Henry from Revelation 18 Commentary "No sooner was the marriage solemnized between Christ and his church by the conversion of the Jews than the glorious head and husband of the church is called out to a new expedition, which seems to be the great battle that was to be fought at Armageddon, foretold Revelation 16:16. And here observe,
I. The description of the great Commander, 1. By the seat of his empire and that is heaven his throne is there, and his power and authority are heavenly and divine. 2. His equipage: he is again described as sitting on a white horse, to show the equity of the cause, and certainty of success. 3. His attributes: he is faithful and true to his covenant and promise, he is righteous in all his judicial and military proceedings, he has a penetrating insight into all the strength and stratagems of his enemies, he has a large and extensive dominion, many crowns, for he is King of kings, and Lord of lords. 4. His armour and that is a vesture dipped in blood, either his own blood, by which he purchased this mediatorial power, or the blood of his enemies, over whom he has always prevailed. 5. His name: The Word of God, a name that none fully knows but himself, only this we know, that this Word was God manifest in the flesh but his perfections are incomprehensible by any creature.
II. The army which he commands (Revelation 19:14), a very large one, made up of many armies angels and saints followed his conduct, and resembled him in their equipage, and in their armour of purity and righteousness--chosen, and called, and faithful.
III. The weapons of his warfare--A sharp sword proceeding from his mouth (Revelation 19:15), with which he smites the nations, either the threatenings of the written word, which now he is going to execute, or rather his word of command calling on his followers to take a just revenge on his and their enemies, who are now put into the wine-press of the wrath of God, to be trodden under foot by him.
IV. The ensigns of his authority, his coat of arms--a name written on his vesture and thigh, King of kings, and Lord of lords, asserting his authority and power, and the cause of the quarrel, Revelation 19:16.
V. An invitation given to the fowls of heaven, that they should come and see the battle, and share in the spoil and pillage of the field (Revelation 19:17,18), intimating that this great decisive engagement should leave the enemies of the church a feast for the birds of prey, and that all the world should have cause to rejoice in the issue of it.
VI. The battle joined. The enemy falls on with great fury, headed by the beast, and the kings of the earth the powers of earth and hell gathered, to make their utmost effort, Revelation 19:19.
VII. The victory gained by the great and glorious head of the church: The beast and the false prophet, the leaders of the army, are taken prisoners, both he who led them by power and he who led them by policy and falsehood these are taken and cast into the burning lake, made incapable of molesting the church of God any more and their followers, whether officers or common soldiers, are given up to military execution, and made a feast for the fowls of heaven. Though the divine vengeance will chiefly fall upon the beast, and the false prophet, yet it will be no excuse to those who fight under their banner that they only followed their leaders and obeyed their command since they would fight for them, they must fall and perish with them. Be wise now therefore, O you kings, be instructed, you rulers of the earth kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish from the way, Psalm 2:10,12."
He sees the marriage of the Lamb and His church take place in Heaven. Again when did the church His bride get into Heaven if not pre-trib, at which point in the Trib, because Henry sees and acknowledge the Tribulation. He states ". An invitation given to the fowls of heaven, that they should come and see the battle, and share in the spoil and pillage of the field (Revelation 19:17,18), intimating that this great decisive engagement should leave the enemies of the church a feast for the birds of prey, and that all the world should have cause to rejoice in the issue of it." Signifying the battle will take place on the earth. Then we see Henry state "The battle joined. The enemy falls on with great fury, headed by the beast, and the kings of the earth the powers of earth and hell gathered, to make their utmost effort, Revelation 19:19." Finally "VII. The victory gained by the great and glorious head of the church: The beast and the false prophet, the leaders of the army, are taken prisoners, both he who led them by power and he who led them by policy and falsehood these are taken and cast into the burning lake, made incapable of molesting the church of God any more and their followers, whether officers or common soldiers, are given up to military execution, and made a feast for the fowls of heaven. Though the divine vengeance will chiefly fall upon the beast, and the false prophet, yet it will be no excuse to those who fight under their banner that they only followed their leaders and obeyed their command since they would fight for them, they must fall and perish with them. Be wise now therefore, O you kings, be instructed, you rulers of the earth kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish from the way, Psalm 2:10,12"
He definitely sees the church in Heaven and the Beast and False prophet in the Tribulation and their end.
Henry's commentary on Revelation 20, "We have here, I. A prophecy of the binding of Satan for a certain term of time, in which he should have much less power and the church much more peace than before. The power of Satan was broken in part by the setting up of the gospel kingdom in the world it was further reduced by the empire's becoming Christian it was yet further broken by the downfall of the mystical Babylon but still this serpent had many heads, and, when one is wounded, another has life remaining in it. Here we have a further limitation and diminution of his power. Observe, 1. To whom this work of binding Satan is committed--to an angel from heaven. It is very probable that this angel is no other than the Lord Jesus Christ the description of him will hardly agree with any other. He is one who has power to bind the strong man armed, to cast him out, and to spoil his goods and therefore must be stronger than he. 2. The means he makes use of in this work: he has a chain and a key, a great chain to bind Satan, and the key of the prison in which he was to be confined. Christ never wants proper powers and instruments to break the power of Satan, for he has the powers of heaven and the keys of hell. 3. The execution of this work, Revelation 20:2,3. (1.) He laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and Satan. Neither the strength of the dragon, nor the subtlety of the serpent, was sufficient to rescue him out of the hands of Christ he caught hold, and kept his hold. And, (2.) He cast him into the bottomless pit, cast him down with force, and with a just vengeance, to his own place and prison, from which he had been permitted to break out, and disturb the churches, and deceive the nations now he is brought back to that prison, and there laid in chains. (3.) He is shut up, and a seal set upon him. Christ shuts, and none can open he shuts by his power, seals by his authority and his lock and seal even the devils themselves cannot break open. (4.) We have the term of this confinement of Satan--a thousand years, after which he was to be loosed again for a little season. The church should have a considerable time of peace and prosperity, but all her trials were not yet over.
II. An account of the reign of the saints for the same space of time in which Satan continued bound (Revelation 20:4-6), and here observe,
1. Who those were that received such honour--those who had suffered for Christ, and all who had faithfully adhered to him, not receiving the mark of the beast, nor worshipping his image all who had kept themselves clear of pagan and papal idolatry.
2. The honour bestowed upon them. (1.) They were raised from the dead, and restored to life. This may be taken either literally or figuratively they were in a civil and political sense dead, and had a political resurrection their liberties and privileges were revived and restored. (2.) Thrones, and power of judgment, were given to them they were possessed of great honour, and interest, and authority, I suppose rather of a spiritual than of a secular nature. (3.) They reigned with Christ a thousand years. Those who suffer with Christ shall reign with Christ they shall reign with him in his spiritual and heavenly kingdom, in a glorious conformity to him in wisdom, righteousness, and holiness, beyond what had been known before in the world. This is called the first resurrection, which none but those who have served Christ and suffered for him shall be favoured with. As for the wicked, they shall not be raised up and restored to their power again, till Satan be let loose this may be called a resurrection, as the conversion of the Jews is said to be life from the dead."
Henry sees satan bound and a 1000 year on earth yet again.
gill on Chapter 19 of Revelation "Verse 4
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts,.... Mentioned in Revelation 4:4 and who represent the churches of Christ and ministers of the Gospel in the several periods of time, these join in the chorus, and praise the Lord on the account of the destruction of Rome, and ruin of antichrist; so they are often heard of in this book, when any remarkable thing is done, or when there is any breaking forth of the kingdom and glory of Christ; see Revelation 5:8 these
fell down; on their faces before God, as in Revelation 4:10 in great reverence of him, and of his righteous judgments:
and worshipped God that sat on the throne; described in Revelation 4:2 this refers to the public worship of God in the churches, by the ministers and members of them:
saying, Amen; Alleluia; they said "Amen", and signified their assent to what the much people in heaven had said, Revelation 19:1 and joined in the same "hallelujah", or expressions of praise to God, for this great appearance of his in the downfall of Babylon. Both these words are used together in Psalm 106:48, see Revelation 5:14."
First we see that gill sees the 24 elders as representing the church in Heaven. When di we first see them, in chapter 4 after John heard the trumpet and the call to come up hither. In heaven praising the fall of as he calls it Rome, scripture calls it Babylon.
"Verse 7
Let us be glad, and rejoice, and give honour to him,.... The saints particularly; the converted Jews will call upon one another to express their gladness at the glorious display of Christ's kingly power and authority, and at the destruction of his enemies, and the happy and comfortable state of his church and people; and to rejoice in him as the Lord their righteousness and strength, and to give him the honour and glory of salvation, and to return him thanks for all the benefits they shall have received from him, particularly on account of what follows:
for the marriage of the Lamb is come; that is, of Christ, the Son of God, with the Jewish church more especially; there was a secret betrothing of all the elect to Christ before the world began; and there is an open espousal of every individual of them at conversion; but the public and general solemnization of the nuptials will not be until the new Jerusalem church state takes place in the personal reign of Christ, hereafter mentioned, Revelation 21:1 but here, and as previous to that, there will be a very general and open marriage of Christ with the people of the Jews, who have long rejected and forsaken him; for if the conversion of a single person may be called a marriage with Christ, much more the conversion of such members; and which is often prophesied of under this metaphor of a marriage, as in Isaiah 62:4. And now the time will be come for the accomplishment of it, the evidence of which follows:
and his wife hath made herself ready, or "dressed herself"; by decking herself with jewels, and putting on her wedding garment provided for her, and given to her by her husband, the Lamb, as appears from the next verse: this preparation will lie partly in the number of converts that will be brought into the Jewish church, which she will receive and clothe herself with, as with the ornament of a bride, Isaiah 49:18 and partly by the exercise of the several graces of the Spirit upon Christ, comparable to the jewels of a bride, with which she will be adorned for her husband; and also by putting on the robe of his righteousness, hereafter mentioned, which the old Jewish synagogue rejected, and therefore was cast off, Romans 10:3. The Arabic version reads, "the marriage of the Lamb is now come with his spouse, prepared for him"; and the Ethiopic version, "the marriage of his Lamb is come, and the wife is prepared"; and that her preparation is not by her own merits and works of righteousness, but by the grace of her husband, is clear from the following verse. Mr. Daubuz, by "the marriage of the Lamb", understands the first resurrection, and the state of the church at that time; and by "the fine linen", the dress of the church, next mentioned, the incorruptible body of the saints compared to a garment, 1 Corinthians 15:53 and by those who are afterwards said to be "called to the marriage", the converted nations in a mortal state: but all the saints will share in the first resurrection; besides, as yet the beast and false prophet are not destroyed, which must be before the first resurrection, as the following vision shows."
Both Henry and Gill say the Jewish nation will be converted. he also sees the church in Heaven, so when did the church get there? "Mr. Daubuz, by "the marriage of the Lamb", understands the first resurrection, and the state of the church at that time; and by "the fine linen", the dress of the church, next mentioned, the incorruptible body of the saints compared to a garment, 1 Corinthians 15:53 and by those who are afterwards said to be "called to the marriage", the converted nations in a mortal state: but all the saints will share in the first resurrection; besides, as yet the beast and false prophet are not destroyed, which must be before the first resurrection, as the following vision shows." He also sees the beast and false prophet as literal beings.
we could go on and on but Gill did see the church as the Bride in Heaven at the end of the Tribulation. We don't see the call anyehre but Revelation 4.
Both Henry and Gill saw the tribulation as a real event before the Lord returned to earth and the battle of Armageddon fought. The y both saw a literal Kingdom being set up. These excerpts make that very clear and they both preceded Darby.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
There is absolutely nothing that is pre-trib-dispensational in Matthew Henry's writing. Give up! At best he was amillennial, at worst he was covenant premillennial! From the above it appears he was covenant premillennial as I initially said! In any event he does not believe that the Church is an interruption in God's program for National Israel. Notice the last section:
Notice no mention of Israel at all. Why? because all the Darby-pre-trib-dispensational doctrine regarding Israel is false!
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Notice no mention of Israel at all. Why? because all the Darby-pre-trib-dispensational doctrine regarding Israel is false!
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Gill states "And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts,.... Mentioned in Revelation 4:4 and who represent the churches of Christ and ministers of the Gospel in the several periods of time, these join in the chorus, and praise the Lord on the account of the destruction of Rome, and ruin of antichrist;so they are often heard of in this book, when any remarkable thing is done, or when there is any breaking forth of the kingdom and glory of Christ; see Revelation 5:8 these
fell down; on their faces before God, as in Revelation 4:10 in great reverence of him, and of his righteous judgments:
and worshipped God that sat on the throne; described in Revelation 4:2 this refers to the public worship of God in the churches, by the ministers and members of them:
saying, Amen; Alleluia; they said "Amen", and signified their assent to what the much people in heaven had said, Revelation 19:1 and joined in the same "hallelujah", or expressions of praise to God, for this great appearance of his in the downfall of Babylon. Both these words are used together in Psalm 106:48, see Revelation 5:14."
Notice the parts in RED Gill says the 24 elders represent the church and are seen in Revelation 4, how can they represent a church that is not in Heaven at that point in Revelation 4? Gill sees these as the church representatives, they are in Heaven wearing Crowns, like 1st Corinthians 3 states that at the Judgement seat the Church believers receive their rewards, these 24 elders represent the church in heaven rewarded.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I posted this earlier Post#99
Members of the Church have been dying since shortly after it was started. The Jews killed a lot in the early Church including Stephen!
One more time! Just read what Gill says in the repost above and quit beating a dead horse. Gill would have never fallen for Darby's nonsense, neither would Matthew Henry. They loved the Church for which Jesus Christ died!
They loved it and believed that Christ would return for her. They Loved it and believed in a literal Beast, they loved it and saw a 1000 year reign. You continue to not see what they said. Satan was not bound according to both and Christ Kingdom was yet to come. You stated in earlier post Christ was already reigning and that there is no Tribulation nor a 1000 year reign. You say it because you believe Darby started that teaching. Both Gill and Henry see a literal beast and false prophet, both see a Kingdom coming with satan bound for 1000 years, you stated satan has been bound for 2000 years yet no scripture backs that up. Before Darby lived these men lived, they believed Christ would literally return for His church, they believed that the tribulation was literal, they believed satan was yet to be bound for 1000 years while Christ reigned upon the earth, followed by satan being cast into the Lake of Fire, and they believed in the New Jerusalem coming down to earth, and they believed all this the century before Darby was born. Yet in your seeming hatred for all you say Darby wrote about that they couldn't have believed that way because you say Darby began it all.
Yet I have clearly shown you what they wrote. You seem to be driven by a hatred for what Darby wrote. I have very little knowledge of what Darby wrote, very little experience with his writing, you continue to call me a Darbyite. I am not now nor have I ever followed Darby's teaching. I followed after sound solid Pastor who taught the return of Christ, the Tribulation, they 1000 year reign and the final home New Jerusalem and backed it up with scripture, all of which I have shared with you here. I never heard of Darby until I came on this board several years ago and still haven't checked out his writing in full, just a few excerpts here and there to see who he was and what he taught. I don't need to read his writings I have the biblical evidence it will occur and I don't have to twist scripture to believe what I believe.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You have done absolutely nothing but parrot Darby'e pre-trib-dispensational error. Darby is the Father of pre-trib-dispensationalism. You are a pre-trib-dispensationalist and therefore a follower of Darby's doctrine. I gave you a reference. read it and learn how Darby developed his doctrine while recuperating from a riding accident at his sisters home. It is written by Dr. Thomas Ice, himself a Darbyite, who has no reason to lie!
You make a number of false assumptions in the above.
1. I have not even mentioned a beast on this thread. There has been resistance to the teaching of Jesus Christ since His ministry on earth beginning with the Jews who conspired with Rome to Crucify Him.
2. I don't say Jesus Christ is reigning, Scripture says Jesus Christ is reigning now as I show in my post #123. If you don't believe that you are denying Scripture.
3. I have never said there is no tribulation. In fact Jesus Christ promises the true believer tribulation: John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
4. I don't say that Satan is bound, Scripture {Matthew 12:24-30} does as I have shown on this thread. Revelation 20:1-3 states that Satan is bound so that he can "no longer deceive the NATIONS". I posted a comment by Hoekema explaining just exactly what is meant by that.
5. I will pose two questions to you I tried to pose as a thread which was closed by the Moderator:
Now you answer the above two questions and we will be able to have a meaningful discussion.
1.The Rapture of the Church prior to a Great Seven Year Tribulation?
Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
This matches 1st Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1st thing to notice in 1st Thessalonians is Paul didn't want believers to be ignorant. Those who have died will be raised and we who are alive and remain will meet Him and them in the air and notice He doesn't continue to the earth but we “GO” with Him to Heaven. Notice it says the trump of God not the last Trump. A voice and the Trump call the church and the church is Harpazo, to snatch away is Translated caught up. Many who are not ready will be snatched away as Lot and family were from Sodom and Gomorrah. Others will be Translated like Enoch because they are walking with God as he did. Next notice John here’s in Revelation 4 a voice like a trumpet, the match here with 1st Thessalonians, a voice and a trumpet, the voice John hears says come up hither. He arrives in the third heaven. What does he see the 24 elders crowned. Notice the similarities. John represents the church which is called up. He hears a voice, described as sounding like a trumpet. Thessalonians says the a voice and the trump of God is heard. John hears a voice as if a Trumpet, that represents those who are alive and remain at Christ coming.
1st Corinthians 15:52 -“ In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed”. John sees the open door in Heaven in which the Believer will then pass through. His attention is turned from earth to heaven, just as 1st Thessalonians says Christ will meet the church in the air. Where is He right now preparing a place for us as part of the bride of Christ!
2nd Peter 3:2-7 we are told of this day, this day of Apostasy. These final days of the church in which His imminent return is sure. “2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
This is happening today. Just as it was in the days of Noah Peter reminds us in 2 Peter 3:5&6 5 “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: Christ Himself stated this of His return”. Matthew 24:37 “But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
Matthew 24: 24 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows."
Right now many have come in Christ name and are deceiving many into a salvation by works or something similar. Nations are rising against nation the beginning of sorrows. It is at this point that the church is caught up and Revelation 6 Picks things up. It is here that Jesus promise to His church in Revelation 3 is fulfilled, the one that says He will keep us from the hour or Time of Temptation or Trial, that is Tribulation.
For then we pick up the Tribulation period in Matthew 24: 9 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” The Tribulation is this time, believers will be delivered up to be afflicted. People will be saved in the Tribulation, they will have the 144,000 witnesses plus many will remember the gospel being preached. The two witnesses will appear at the 3 1/2 year point and they will preach to the whole world then be cut down and their bodies left to rot in the streets. Until Christ raises them from the dead and they ascend into heaven. The Gospel will now be the Kingdom is coming. The Beast having come to power will set up the abomination that maketh desolate in the temple, notice what Jesus says it will stand in the Holy Place that will be in the Temple in Jerusalem. His image will be in the Temple. Then the Kingdom will follow 3 ½ years from that point and Christ 2nd Coming will occur. What Kingdom, the 1000 year Kingdom. Those who trust Christ in the tribulation endure in their faith to the end of that period. Then comes Christ earthly reign as predicted by Isaiah and seen in Chapter 20 of Revelation.
2. The doctrine that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "Parenthesis" or Intercalation in God's Program for Israel!
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Paul says have ye heard of the Dispensation of the Grace of God. This is the age of the church, the age we live in, the age in which Christ is preached and the church is being built. By revelation of God the Holy Spirit the mystery which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of man. Is now revealed unto His Holy Apostles and Prophets by the Holy Spirit. This whole section says the church was not shown to the Old Testament Prophet. It was always in God’s plan for the Gentiles to be added. In fact the Jews were to carry God’s word to the World but they failed and custody of the word was given to the church. Paul a Jew was used to reveal God’s plan in the Dispensation of the Grace of God (the Chruch age), to reveal the mystery not seen until after the rejection of Christ. This is very clear Paul taught the church the age of grace as a new dispensation. Scripture here in Ephesians clearly states it very clearly.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
This says nothing about the Church. It is about how John received the Revelation of Jesus Christ!!!!!
How in the world can you say Revelation 4:1 matches 1 Thessalonians 4:13. In the passage from Thessalonians Paul is comforting the "true believers' about the resurrection of their deceased loved ones, assuring them that though they had died their bodies would be resurrected at the Return of Jesus Christ.
The passage you used earlier from 1st Corinthians 15 to support your error says last trumpet. Also note this is no "secret Rapture" but a noisy one.
Where in the world fid you dream up this nonsense. Lot and his family were not "snatched" out of Sodom.
You are making artificial distinctions that cannot be supported bt the passage from 1 Thessalonians.
Utter nonsense. Most pre-cribbers have given up on that interpretation recognizing it is not tenable. The passage as I said earlier is about the Revelation to John and only the Revelation to John. John represents the Church????? You said elsewhere the 24 elders represented the Church!
Uh Oh, You just said that the trumpet in 1 Thessalonians was not the last Trumpet. Now you say it is. The last trumpet is the Seventh trumpet. I will show you what actually occurs at the Last Trumpet:
Revelation 11:15-19
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Please note the underlined Scripture: The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And:
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
When the Seventh and Last Trumpet is sounded that is the end of time as we know it. All the dead are resurrected as noted in John 5:28, 29. The Saints are resurrected as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13f and receive the reward of eternal life as in John 5:29 and verse 18 above and numerous other Scripture Those who died in Adam are resurrected unto damnation and judged as shown in John 5:29 and Verse 18 above and numerous other Scripture.
Nonsense!
Now which coming are you talking about:
1. Well if The Church has just been "snatched away" that is not the same as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2. If there has been a Great Seven Year Tribulation with the antichrist in the temple that is not the same as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3. If Jesus Christ has been reigning on earth for 1000 years that is not the same as they were from the beginning of the creation.
In truth the passage from Peter is the sting of death to pre-trib-dispensational nonsense! It is actually a summary of those things which will occur at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ when the General Resurrection and General Judgment {The White Throne Judgment} shall occur as John 5:28, 29 tells us.
The Apostle John tells us in Revelation 20:11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Continued:
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
And the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed by the Judgment of God in 70 AD.
Right now many have come in Christ name and are deceiving many into a salvation by works or something similar. Nations are rising against nation the beginning of sorrows. It is at this point that the church is caught up and Revelation 6 Picks things up. It is here that Jesus promise to His church in Revelation 3 is fulfilled, the one that says He will keep us from the hour or Time of Temptation or Trial, that is Tribulation.
For then we pick up the Tribulation period in Matthew 24: 9 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
The Tribulation is this time, believers will be delivered up to be afflicted. People will be saved in the Tribulation, they will have the 144,000 witnesses plus many will remember the gospel being preached. The two witnesses will appear at the 3 1/2 year point and they will preach to the whole world then be cut down and their bodies left to rot in the streets. Until Christ raises them from the dead and they ascend into heaven. The Gospel will now be the Kingdom is coming. The Beast having come to power will set up the abomination that maketh desolate in the temple, notice what Jesus says it will stand in the Holy Place that will be in the Temple in Jerusalem. His image will be in the Temple. Then the Kingdom will follow 3 ½ years from that point and Christ 2nd Coming will occur. What Kingdom, the 1000 year Kingdom. Those who trust Christ in the tribulation endure in their faith to the end of that period. Then comes Christ earthly reign as predicted by Isaiah and seen in Chapter 20 of Revelation.
There is not a single verse of Scripture in the above that indicates the "snatching away" of the Church prior to any seven year period of tribulation. The Church has always undergone tribulation and will until Jesus Christ returns.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That proves nothing about the Church being a "Parenthesis" an interruption in God's program for National Israel. To say that Jesus Christ died for a "parenthesis" is pathetically blasphemous!
I will say this, You tried. No one else would!
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