The two witnesses

[OldRegular]

You have proven my point that it is a hopeless endeavor to attempt to reason with a-millers. Your responses are simply childish and desperation. A Sunday school child can easily see that your proof text is completely jerked out of its context:

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Can you read verses 26-27 and verses 30-31 and understand what is being said??? Apparently not! I am out of this mess of confusion.

Then good riddance. All you have done is show you can make insulting remarks. You started with the following:

Any person who attempts to deny that Rev. 19:11-21 refers to the Second Advent is hopelessly so messed up that it is worthless to even discuss anything with them.

Of course the implication in the above statement is false since I had not mentioned Revelation 19:11-21 in this thread and Revelation 19:11-21 is the final of several pictures of the return of Jesus Christ presented in the Book of Revelation.

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You continue with all that you are capable of doing:

Look at the way you address my post. You don't address the arguments in the order given. You simply pick and choose bits and pieces jerking what I say out of context or completely avoiding what I said. Exactly, as you deal with scripture.

Do you see verse 28 and verses 30-31?????? This is not a context of CROSS WORK but a subject of PRE-cross work of the Spirit confirming that Christ was the Messiah by POWER in casting demons out of people. It has NOTHING to do with Revelation 20 - NOTHING except in the fertile imagination of a-miller's.

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Then we have the following example of brilliant semantics {Post #75}

The Second Advent is a Post-fact, as Revelation 19:20 occurs AFTER Revelation 20:11-19 but BEFORE Revlelation whereas the 1000 years must occur IN BETWEEN as the casting and remaining of the prophet and Beast is inseparably and contextually related to this 1000 year period.

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And then we have the final revelation of your brilliance as an Biblical scholar.

You have proven my point that it is a hopeless endeavor to attempt to reason with a-millers. Your responses are simply childish and desperation. A Sunday school child can easily see that your proof text is completely jerked out of its context:

Can you read verses 26-27 and verses 30-31 and understand what is being said??? Apparently not! I am out of this mess of confusion.

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I repeat for your edification: "To those with Spiritual Comprehension the entire Bible is about the Cross-work of Jesus Christ! Try reading Genesis 3:15. You might learn something that will help you!"

:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course the implication in the above statement is false since I had not mentioned Revelation 19:11-21 in this thread and Revelation 19:11-21 is the final of several pictures of the return of Jesus Christ presented in the Book of Revelation.

You think a whole lot about yourself! Where did I ever say I had you in view? For your information, I simply made this general statement because that is what it would require to deny the interpretation I provided. It was generic.

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You continue with all that you are capable of doing:



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Simply pointed out that your response to my post was pathetic. You ignored the Biblical evidence and nit picked at non-essentials in my post.

Then we have the following example of brilliant semantics {Post #75}

You are merely advertising your own ignorance. Once Christ is revealed in the clouds - that is the revelation - everything after that is Post-revelation (Rev. 19:11-14). Therefore, the casting of the prophet and beast into Gehenna is a Post-revelation event (Rev. 19:20). Once he has come, he has come, everything after his coming are post-coming events.Their continuance in gehenna during the millennium and after its conclusion is a Post-revelation event (Rev. 20:10). The Great White Seat judgement is a Post-coming event. However, if you choose to be ignorant then be ignorant.


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And then we have the final revelation of your brilliance as an Biblical scholar.

My comments were spot on as your next post illustrates very well.

I repeat for your edification: "To those with Spiritual Comprehension the entire Bible is about the Cross-work of Jesus Christ! Try reading Genesis 3:15. You might learn something that will help you!"

This is an open declaration of complete ignorance! First, the context of Matthew 12 is about casting out devils as proof that the kingdom has come to them in the person of Christ and power of the Spirit. Casting out demons is what your proof text is contextually about BEFORE the cross occurs. For you to apply it as a proof text to explain the binding of Satan as a result of the cross is simply eisegesis at is very lowest depth.

Nobody denies the cross of Christ or the redemption of Christ from the power of sin and Satan is central to understanding the doctrine of salvation from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22 but to suggest that the passage in Matthew 12 is contextually about the cross binding Satan in reference to Revelation 21:1-3 is pathetically dishonest and eisegesis on display.

Revelation 21 has to do with binding that keeps Satan from DECEIVING the nations and to claim that has occurred requires blind eyes, complete ignorance of the New Testament a an advanced degree in eisegesis. To further claim that the particular passage in Matthew is proof for that interpetation is ridiculous as that particular passage has NO REFERENCE TO DECEPTION but to casting out demons. Moreover it has no reference to "THE NATIONS" but to individuals who are demon possessed. It has no reference to the cross but actual casting out of demons BEFORE the cross.

You simply have no clue what you are talking about and certainly do not have a clue about rightly dividing the word of truth.

:BangHead:

 

[OldRegular]

You think a whole lot about yourself! Where did I ever say I had you in view? For your information, I simply made this general statement because that is what it would require to deny the interpretation I provided. It was generic.



Simply pointed out that your response to my post was pathetic. You ignored the Biblical evidence and nit picked at non-essentials in my post.



You are merely advertising your own ignorance. Once Christ is revealed in the clouds - that is the revelation - everything after that is Post-revelation (Rev. 19:11-14). Therefore, the casting of the prophet and beast into Gehenna is a Post-revelation event (Rev. 19:20). Once he has come, he has come, everything after his coming are post-coming events.Their continuance in gehenna during the millennium and after its conclusion is a Post-revelation event (Rev. 20:10). The Great White Seat judgement is a Post-coming event. However, if you choose to be ignorant then be ignorant.


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My comments were spot on as your next post illustrates very well.






This is an open declaration of complete ignorance! First, the context of Matthew 12 is about casting out devils as proof that the kingdom has come to them in the person of Christ and power of the Spirit. Casting out demons is what your proof text is contextually about BEFORE the cross occurs. For you to apply it as a proof text to explain the binding of Satan as a result of the cross is simply eisegesis at is very lowest depth.

Nobody denies the cross of Christ or the redemption of Christ from the power of sin and Satan is central to understanding the doctrine of salvation from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22 but to suggest that the passage in Matthew 12 is contextually about the cross binding Satan in reference to Revelation 21:1-3 is pathetically dishonest and eisegesis on display.

Revelation 21 has to do with binding that keeps Satan from DECEIVING the nations and to claim that has occurred requires blind eyes, complete ignorance of the New Testament a an advanced degree in eisegesis. To further claim that the particular passage in Matthew is proof for that interpetation is ridiculous as that particular passage has NO REFERENCE TO DECEPTION but to casting out demons. Moreover it has no reference to "THE NATIONS" but to individuals who are demon possessed. It has no reference to the cross but actual casting out of demons BEFORE the cross.

You simply have no clue what you are talking about and certainly do not have a clue about rightly dividing the word of truth.

:BangHead:

You said goodbye once TheB and I responded appropriately!:wavey::wavey::wavey:

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But I can't resist posting once again the following example of brilliant semantics {Post #75}

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
The Second Advent is a Post-fact, as Revelation 19:20 occurs AFTER Revelation 20:11-19 but BEFORE Revlelation whereas the 1000 years must occur IN BETWEEN as the casting and remaining of the prophet and Beast is inseparably and contextually related to this 1000 year period.

 

[OldRegular]

Following is an excerpt {pages 228, 229} from the book The Bible and the Futureby Anthony A. Hoekema giving an amillennial perspective on the binding of Satan as indicated in Revelation 20:1-3.

What is meant, now, by the binding of Satan? In Old Testament times, at least in the post-Abrahamic era, all the nations of the world except Israel were, so to speak, under Satan’s rule. At that time the people of Israel were the recipients of God’s special revelation, so that they knew God’s truth about themselves, about their sinfulness and about the way they could obtain forgiveness for their sins [though it must be admitted that this knowledge was given to them in types and shadows, so that it was incomplete]. During this same time, however, the other nations of the world did not know that truth, and were therefore in ignorance and error [see Acts 17:30]--except for an occasional person, family, or city which came into contact with God’s special revelation. One could say that during this time these nations were deceived by Satan, as our first parents had been deceived by Satan when they fell into sin in the Garden of Eden.

Just before his ascension, however, Christ gave his disciples his Great Commission: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” [Matthew. 28:19]. At this point one can well imagine the disciples raising a disturbing question: How can we possibly do this if Satan continues to deceive the nations the way he has in the past? In Revelation 20:1-3 John gives a reassuring answer to this question. Paraphrased, his answer goes something like this: “During the gospel era which has now been ushered in, Satan will not be able to continue deceiving the nations the way he did in the past, for he has been bound. During this entire period, therefore, you, Christ's disciples, will be able to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations.”

This does not imply that Satan can do no harm whatever while he is bound. It means only what John says here: while Satan is bound he cannot deceive the nations in such a way as to keep them from learning about the truth of God. Later in this chapter we are told that when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations of the world to gather them together to fight against the people Of God [Revelation 20:7-9]. This, however, he cannot do while he is bound. We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church.

Is there any indication in the New Testament that Satan was bound at the time of the first coming of Christ? Indeed there is. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan, Jesus replied, “How can one enter a Strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?” [Matthew 12:29]. Interestingly enough, the word used by Matthew to describe the binding of the strong man is the same word used in Revelation 20 to describe the binding of Satan [the Greek word deo]. One could say that Jesus bound the devil when he triumphed over him in the wilderness, refusing to give in to his temptations. Jesus’ casting out of demons, so he teaches us in this passage, was evidence of this triumph. One could counter that the binding of Satan mentioned here is reported in connection with the casting out of demons rather than in connection with the preaching of the gospel. But I would reply that the casting out of demons is an evidence of the presence of the kingdom of God [Matthew 12:28], and that it is precisely because the kingdom of God has come that the gospel can now be preached to all the nations [see Matthew 13:24-30, 47-50].

When the seventy returned from their preaching mission, they said to Jesus, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name.” Jesus replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” [Luke 10: 17-18]. These words, needless to say, must not be interpreted as suggesting Satan’s literal descent from heaven at that moment. They must rather be understood to mean that Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan’s kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow--that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place. In this instance Satan's fall or binding is associated directly with the missionary activity of Jesus’ disciples.

Another passage which relates the restriction of Satan’s activities to Christ's missionary outreach is John 12:31-32: “Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” It is interesting to note that the verb translated “cast out" [ekballo] is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3, “and threw [ballo] him [Satan] into the pit.” Even more important, however, is the observation that Satan's being “cast out” is here associated with the fact that not only Jews but men of all nationalities shall be drawn to Christ as he hangs on the cross.

The binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3, therefore, means that throughout the gospel age in which we now live the influence of Satan, though certainly not annihilated, is so curtailed that he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel to the nations of the world. Because of the binding of Satan during this present age, the nations cannot conquer the church, but the church is conquering the nations.

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And I can't resist posting once again the following example of brilliant semantics. {Post #75} And it goes without saying equally brilliant understanding of Scripture.

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
The Second Advent is a Post-fact, as Revelation 19:20 occurs AFTER Revelation 20:11-19 but BEFORE Revlelation whereas the 1000 years must occur IN BETWEEN as the casting and remaining of the prophet and Beast is inseparably and contextually related to this 1000 year period.

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[The Biblicist]

Following is an excerpt {pages 228, 229} from the book The Bible and the Futureby Anthony A. Hoekema giving an amillennial perspective on the binding of Satan as indicated in Revelation 20:1-3.



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And I can't resist posting once again the following example of brilliant semantics. {Post #75} And it goes without saying equally brilliant understanding of Scripture.

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
The Second Advent is a Post-fact, as Revelation 19:20 occurs AFTER Revelation 20:11-19 but BEFORE Revlelation whereas the 1000 years must occur IN BETWEEN as the casting and remaining of the prophet and Beast is inseparably and contextually related to this 1000 year period.

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What a twisted bunch of nonsense! You talk about stretching the Word of God to make it fit what you want - this takes the cake! The vast majority of Israel as nation was deceived most of the time, into idolatry most of the time. At some periods only 7,000 could be found among the hundred's of thousands of Israelites that were not deceived. The nations today are by the vast majority part of the world system blinded by Satan. What utter absolute nonsense!

 

[OldRegular]

Following is an excerpt {pages 228, 229} from the book The Bible and the Futureby Anthony A. Hoekema giving an amillennial perspective on the binding of Satan as indicated in Revelation 20:1-3.



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And I can't resist posting once again the following example of brilliant semantics. {Post #75} And it goes without saying equally brilliant understanding of Scripture by TheB.

What a twisted bunch of nonsense! You talk about stretching the Word of God to make it fit what you want - this takes the cake! The vast majority of Israel as nation was deceived most of the time, into idolatry most of the time. At some periods only 7,000 could be found among the hundred's of thousands of Israelites that were not deceived. The nations today are by the vast majority part of the world system blinded by Satan. What utter absolute nonsense!

You wrote that twisted bunch of nonsense in your post #75. I repeat it for your edification!

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Posting once again the following example of brilliant semantics by TheB. {Post #75} And it goes without saying equally brilliant understanding of Scripture.

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
The Second Advent is a Post-fact, as Revelation 19:20 occurs AFTER Revelation 20:11-19 but BEFORE Revlelation whereas the 1000 years must occur IN BETWEEN as the casting and remaining of the prophet and Beast is inseparably and contextually related to this 1000 year period.

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Uh Oh! THeB! You were referring to Hoekema's fine explanation of the binding of Satan. You neglected to quote it so I thought you were talking about that twisted bunch of nonsense from your post #75 that I am unable to resist posting to show how foolish you are. Also TheB I thought you were leaving this mess and I have said goodbye twice! One more time TheB but no more. This is absolutely the last time! Of course I may remind folks of that brilliant piece of semantics and eisegesis of Scripture from time to time, but this is absolutely goodbye for ever TheB!:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:

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[revmwc]

You wrote that twisted bunch of nonsense in your post #75. I repeat it for your edification!

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Posting once again the following example of brilliant semantics by TheB. {Post #75} And it goes without saying equally brilliant understanding of Scripture.



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Uh Oh! THeB! You were referring to Hoekema's fine explanation of the binding of Satan. You neglected to quote it so I thought you were talking about that twisted bunch of nonsense from your post #75 that I am unable to resist posting to show how foolish you are. Also TheB I thought you were leaving this mess and I have said goodbye twice! One more time TheB but no more. This is absolutely the last time! Of course I may remind folks of that brilliant piece of semantics and eisegesis of Scripture from time to time, but this is absolutely goodbye for ever TheB!:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:

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Anyone who believes satan is currently bound in the abyss as Revelation states needs on look to ISIS for proof that he is not bound but influencing the beheading of Christians who will not recant their faith in Christ. Or look to the Terrorist attacks all over the world. Satan's influence in deceiving the nations is very apparent. By the way every other person knew he was refering to the trash from Hoekiema's twisting of scripture. But God has given you and him the right to interpret scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

Anyone who believes satan is currently bound in the abyss as Revelation states needs on look to ISIS for proof that he is not bound but influencing the beheading of Christians who will not recant their faith in Christ. Or look to the Terrorist attacks all over the world. Satan's influence in deceiving the nations is very apparent.

You are completely misreading Revelation 20:1-3. I pointed this out to you earlier and do so again. Even TheB understood what the passage stated, just as Hoekema did in his brief analysis. Now look once again at Revelation 20:1-3 which I repeat from my post #68:

Try reading exactly what Revelation 20:1-3 states:

Revelation 20:1-3
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Look especially at the enlarged words!

I also understand that the doctrine of the pre-trib-snatching-away-of-the Church invented out of whole cloth by John Nelson Darby and popularized in this country by Cyrus Scofield's References is false doctrine. The Church is not a parenthesis, an interruption, in God's program for apostate Israel. Jesus Christ shed his blood on a Roman Cross for the Church.

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By the way every other person knew he was refering to the trash from Hoekiema's twisting of scripture. But God has given you and him the right to interpret scripture.

So am I to assume you have polled EVERY person on this Baptist Board and they understood what TheB meant. I doubt that. I must assume you are speaking symbolically, or metaphorically, or allegorically, or anything but literally.

It is asinine for you, and TheB, to say that Hoekema twisted Scripture. His point was that before the Cross-work of Jesus Christ God was practically unknown in the Gentile nations, with few exceptions, because they had been given over to Satan. With the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ that was changed and the Gospel was carried to all nations because Satan;s dominance had been curtailed as Revelation 20:1-3 shows. Now certainly you are not going to dispute what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 28:16-20 are you. I realize that the pre-trib-dispensationalism of John Nelson Darby considers that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died {Acts 20:28}, is a failure in spite of what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 16:18 but Darby was wrong, just as his entire doctrine is wrong.

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I am exceedingly happy to know that you believe God has given me the right to interpret Scripture. I have said repeatedly on this BB that there is only one correct interpretation of Scripture. Some understand Scripture, others don't!

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[The Biblicist]

:thumbs: yeah, some people live in la la land.

Anyone who believes satan is currently bound in the abyss as Revelation states needs on look to ISIS for proof that he is not bound but influencing the beheading of Christians who will not recant their faith in Christ. Or look to the Terrorist attacks all over the world. Satan's influence in deceiving the nations is very apparent. By the way every other person knew he was refering to the trash from Hoekiema's twisting of scripture. But God has given you and him the right to interpret scripture.

 

[revmwc]

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I am exceedingly happy to know that you believe God has given me the right to interpret Scripture. I have said repeatedly on this BB that there is only one correct interpretation of Scripture. Some understand Scripture, others don't!

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That is very true that some do understand and some don't. John made it very clear that some would and some wouldn't. Some would fall away from the truth and some wouldn't. Many will come in and deceive. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds

We are also in the day Paul spoke in 2 Thessalonians 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Beast, the man of sin will be revealed, the son of perdition, there will be many who fall away from the truth before he is revealed. Paul says the truth is there yet a time is coming and it is has now arrived, as many are falling away from worship, and after that the man of sin the son of perdition will be revealed. Satan is deceiving many with false teaching such as Christ isn't going to return.

Jesus said there had been a son of perdition prior to Paul's writing, we see John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was the first son of perdition and satan as we were told in scripture entered him. Every part of this backs up what Revelation 20 tells us. Satan is free right now, he is free to deceive the nations, with false teachers and teachings and he is doing a great job of it. Teaching such things as Christ will not return for His Bride as He promised His disciples He would. Teaching that satan is not allowed to currently deceive the nations and yet we see people deceived with false teaching, such as salvation by works or that The immanent return of Christ will not occur and yet we see Revelation 19 and 20 which state that He will return. We see 1st Thessalonians 4 which says He will meet the believers of this current age in the air and All believers of that time who are alive and remain will meet Him and the saints who have passed in the air and return to heaven. Revelation 19 says they return with Him as an army clothed in white raiment clean and white. All literal interpretation. why must it be interpreted literally, because of Jesus' promise seen in
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Paul again reiterated His return for us those who believe in 1st Thessalonians and 1st Corinthians 15:52. Paul also promised to me and all who are looking for Christ return a crown,
2nd Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

All for literal interpretation not as a figurative or mystical return.

You it would seem are holding fast to the no return doctrine, if that is true then that would mean you don't love His appearing because you deny it will occur.

 

[OldRegular]

That is very true that some do understand and some don't. John made it very clear that some would and some wouldn't. Some would fall away from the truth and some wouldn't. Many will come in and deceive. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds

John Nelson Darby, the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism, may have believed in Jesus Christ as the Incarnate God and in His Atoning Sacrifice for the Elect. However, Darby apparently had little regard for the Church for which Jesus Christ died {Acts 20:28} since He apparently believes the Church an abject failure in fulfilling the "Great Commission" as presented in Matthew 28:16-20:

16. Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Church is to be a witness to Jesus Christ until the "end of the world" but Darby, you, and pre-trib-dispensationalism-doctrine claim God is going to "forcefully snatch" the Church out of the world at least 1007 years before the "end of the world".

Darby also had little regard for the promise Jesus Christ made to the Apostles as recorded in Matthew 16:15-18:

15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

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[OldRegular]

You it would seem are holding fast to the no return doctrine, if that is true then that would mean you don't love His appearing because you deny it will occur.

If you draw the above conclusion from anything I have ever posted on this BB you are showing your stupidity.

But as I said in an earlier post #71 you are totally ignorant of what I believe. I offer your above statement I quote as proof!


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[revmwc]

The Church is to be a witness to Jesus Christ but Darby, you, and pre-trib-dispensationalism-doctrine claim God is going to "forcefully snatch" the Church out of the world at least 1007 years before the "end of the world".

Darby also had little regard for the promise Jesus Christ made to the Apostles as recorded in Matthew 16:15-18:

15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

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The church is and has been a witness throughout its existence. The stages the church went through are seen so greatly through the last nearly 2000 years since that day of Pentecost in the year the Lord Jesus ascended. Peter preached and 3000 souls received Christ and were added to the "CHURCH"!

Christ ascended the Disciples told to wait. The Holy Spirit came 10 days later and came and indwelt and filled the believers. From that point until today the church has been a witness. She will be a witness until, the Tribulation, when the church is Snatched away, some by force because like you they won't be ready to go, some won't believe He is coming others will be carnal and serving sin. But ALL who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ will be snatched away. Just as Lot, his wife and daughters were snatched out of Sodom and Gomorrah prior to judgment.

What Darby teaches I have very little knowledge of, I have seen a few of his notes on Revelation, but I have also seen what Matthew Henry wrote. As well as Gill, Newell and even went to the Expositors Bible. I take the writing and doctrine of no one man by itself. Also Ironside, M.R. Dehaan and some of his as well as J. Vernon Magee. I take and gleen what I am lead to believe. But the writing of one man in one book I will not take for Biblical truth.

Darby lived from 1800 to 1882, Newell followed from 1868-1891. Matthew Henry believed in the Lord's imminent return and believed that there was going to be a literal tribulation period. Matthew Henry lived from 1662-1714 a century before Darby and yet believed the Lord was going to return and set up a Kingdom. He believed satan was yet to be bound and not allowed to deceive the nations, I will ask again have you looked at Matthew Henry's commentaries on Revelation? John Gill lived from 1697-1771 and he too was looking forward to the return of Christ and satan being bound. He too believed in a literal catching away of the chrurch the truibualtion and the beast literally occuring. You seem to center in on just one man, Darby and your one guy's teaching Anthony A. Hoekema, who lived from 1913 to 1988. I believe I'll follow Henry, Gill, Newell and others who align with each other, while you align with one who seems to have a problem with Darby.

 

[revmwc]

If you draw the above conclusion from anything I have ever posted on this BB you are showing your stupidity.

But as I said in an earlier post #71 you are totally ignorant of what I believe. I offer your above statement I quote as proof!


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You missed one word "seem" which is how I see what you believe. As for your other post I have seen very few if any others. I just said seems like, which means it may or may not be true, what you have written draws me to conclude, you say it isn't so then it isn't so, but I venture to say many will agree with what it seems like to me. Anyone care to comment on what it seems oldregular believes?

 

[OldRegular]

You missed one word "seem" which is how I see what you believe. As for your other post I have seen very few if any others. I just said seems like, which means it may or may not be true, what you have written draws me to conclude, you say it isn't so then it isn't so, but I venture to say many will agree with what it seems like to me. Anyone care to comment on what it seems oldregular believes?

There is absolutely nothing in any post I have made on this thread or any other thread that would lead a reasonable person to draw the conclusion you have; namely:

Originally Posted by revmwc
You it would seem are holding fast to the no return doctrine

But after 11 years on this BB I expect nothing less than false accusations from pre-trib-dispensationalists!

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[OldRegular]

The church is and has been a witness throughout its existence. The stages the church went through are seen so greatly through the last nearly 2000 years since that day of Pentecost in the year the Lord Jesus ascended. Peter preached and 3000 souls received Christ and were added to the "CHURCH"!

Christ ascended the Disciples told to wait. The Holy Spirit came 10 days later and came and indwelt and filled the believers. From that point until today the church has been a witness. She will be a witness until, the Tribulation, when the church is Snatched away, some by force because like you they won't be ready to go, some won't believe He is coming others will be carnal and serving sin. But ALL who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ will be snatched away. Just as Lot, his wife and daughters were snatched out of Sodom and Gomorrah prior to judgment.

What Darby teaches I have very little knowledge of, I have seen a few of his notes on Revelation, but I have also seen what Matthew Henry wrote. As well as Gill, Newell and even went to the Expositors Bible. I take the writing and doctrine of no one man by itself. Also Ironside, M.R. Dehaan and some of his as well as J. Vernon Magee. I take and gleen what I am lead to believe. But the writing of one man in one book I will not take for Biblical truth.

Darby lived from 1800 to 1882, Newell followed from 1868-1891. Matthew Henry believed in the Lord's imminent return and believed that there was going to be a literal tribulation period. Matthew Henry lived from 1662-1714 a century before Darby and yet believed the Lord was going to return and set up a Kingdom. He believed satan was yet to be bound and not allowed to deceive the nations, I will ask again have you looked at Matthew Henry's commentaries on Revelation? John Gill lived from 1697-1771 and he too was looking forward to the return of Christ and satan being bound. He too believed in a literal catching away of the chrurch the truibualtion and the beast literally occuring.

There is nothing wrong with looking forward to the return of Jesus Christ. I believe Scripture tells us to look for that return. What is wrong, and seriously wrong, is the invention by John Nelson Darby, and the subsequent teaching that the Church is a parenthesis, an interruption, in God's program for Israel. Scripture tells me that Jesus Christ died for the Church. I see nowhere that He died for National Israel.

You seem to center in on just one man, Darby and your one guy's teaching Anthony A. Hoekema, who lived from 1913 to 1988. I believe I'll follow Henry, Gill, Newell and others who align with each other, while you align with one who seems to have a problem with Darby.

I center on Darby because Darby is the father of the false doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church as an interruption in God's program for Israel. Hoekema is only one of many who think pre-trib-dispensationalism is wrong. In fact there is a movement away from classic dispensationalism to what is called progressive dispensationalism which hopefully will eventually move to full blown historic or covenant premillennialism. Though historic premillennialism is incorrect as far as the earthly millennial reign is concerned they at least don't consider the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, an interruption in God's program for Israel!

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[revmwc]

There is nothing wrong with looking forward to the return of Jesus Christ. I believe Scripture tells us to look for that return. What is wrong, and seriously wrong, is the invention by John Nelson Darby, and the subsequent teaching that the Church is a parenthesis, an interruption, in God's program for Israel. Scripture tells me that Jesus Christ died for the Church. I see nowhere that He died for National Israel.



I center on Darby because Darby is the father of the false doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church as an interruption in God's program for Israel. Hoekema is only one of many who think pre-trib-dispensationalism is wrong. In fact there is a movement away from classic dispensationalism to what is called progressive dispensationalism which hopefully will eventually move to full blown historic or covenant premillennialism. Though historic premillennialism is incorrect as far as the earthly millennial reign is concerned they at least don't consider the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, an interruption in God's program for Israel!

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Have you read Matthew Henry? Have you Read John Gill? Both hold to a yet future call out of the church, the Tribulation occurring with the Beast and false prophet ruling and reigning upon the earth, the future binding of satan and the 2nd coming to the literal earth of Christ. Men who never even knew who Darby was, still believed the church would be caught up to meet Christ, then the Tribulation followed by the 2nd advent and literal reign of Christ while satan was bound in the abyss. So if you say Darby is the father of the false doctrine as you call why then did Henry and Gill and those others who lived before him and believed in the same doctrine hold his views?

To look forward to His coming means to look for a literal Kingdom which you have consistently said is already occurring. Looking forward to His coming means that there is a literal binding of satan coming after the unholy trinity has come into being. The Bible is clear, scholars of old believed it before Darby taught it!

 

[revmwc]

There is absolutely nothing in any post I have made on this thread or any other thread that would lead a reasonable person to draw the conclusion you have; namely: But after 11 years on this BB I expect nothing less than false accusations from pre-trib-dispensationalists!

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No return for the Bride, the church you consistently have been saying that throughout this post. The problem is you have to throw out scriptures like 1st Thessalonians 4 which says we meet Him in the air. You have to throw out 1st Corinthians 15:52 to hold that view. You have to say scholars of old who believed in the church being caught up before the time of the Tribulation had it wrong. You even must say Jesus lied when He promised His church she would not go through that time,

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The Greek for the word temptation is "Peirasmos" a time of Trial, or proving. The Tribulation is the final step of Christ in the Redemption process. Not only did man need to be redeemed but Christ was also to redeem all of creation. To do that He must put it through trial or proving, tempatation if judgment. So that He completes the terms of the title deed redemption contained in the little book with seven seals.

This was not just a promise to the church at Philadelphia but to all believers who are saved during this the time of the Church. A time not seen by the Old Testament prophets, hidden to them, but revealed by Holy men of God in the writings of the Church, the New Testament.

We see the purpose of that time of temptation, of trial of proving or Tribulation in

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

These too must be redeemed. The whole creation growns and travails due to the curse and the prince that rules them. The prince who you say is bound is ruling the earth because the curse has not been lifted, the earth has yet to be redeemed. For Christ is the perfect redeemer. Every realm that came under the curse of Adam’s sin, must be redeemed! It must also be redeemed by the Last Adam. As the kinsman redeemer was not to just redeen the kinsman but t he property of the kinsman. All this must occur.

Revelation 4 must also be throne out for John, "saw four-and-twenty seats round about the throne, not empty, but filled with four-and-twenty elders, presbyters, representing, very probably, the whole church of God, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament state; not the ministers of the church, but rather the representatives of the people. Their sitting denotes their honour, rest, and satisfaction; their sitting about the throne signifies their relation to God, their nearness to him, the sight and enjoyment they have of him. i1They are clothed in white raiment, the righteousness of the saints, both imputed and inherent; they had on their heads crowns of gold,i0 signifying the honour and authority given them of God, and the glory they have with him. All these may in a lower sense be applied to the gospel church on earth, in its worshipping assemblies; and, in the higher sense, to the church triumphant in heaven."

 

[OldRegular]

Have you read Matthew Henry? Have you Read John Gill? Both hold to a yet future call out of the church, the Tribulation occurring with the Beast and false prophet ruling and reigning upon the earth, the future binding of satan and the 2nd coming to the literal earth of Christ. Men who never even knew who Darby was, still believed the church would be caught up to meet Christ, then the Tribulation followed by the 2nd advent and literal reign of Christ while satan was bound in the abyss. So if you say Darby is the father of the false doctrine as you call why then did Henry and Gill and those others who lived before him and believed in the same doctrine hold his views?

To look forward to His coming means to look for a literal Kingdom which you have consistently said is already occurring. Looking forward to His coming means that there is a literal binding of satan coming after the unholy trinity has come into being. The Bible is clear, scholars of old believed it before Darby taught it!

You are mistaken. Gill could not even be called a historic premillennialist since he writes:

But then this kingdom will not be on this present earth, or upon this earth in its present circumstances: this present heavens and earth will be burnt up before this kingdom takes place; this world is not good enough for the second Adam and his saints, to dwell in; the curse must be removed from it, and it must be refined and new fitted up, for such inhabitants; and all the wicked of it be no more in it, as unfit to dwell where such persons do. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, nor ever will be. This has been the mistake of many, fancying that the millennium will be in the present earth;

Book Seven, Chapter VIII of John Gill's A Body of Divinity

Henry was a conventional historic or covenant premillennialists. {Matthew Henry, A Commentary on the Whole Bible, Revelation, Chapter 20}

Neither Gill nor Henry believed in a parenthesis Church or pre-tribulation snatching away of the Church.

If you can prove otherwise then do so. Otherwise don't make unsubstantiated claims!

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[OldRegular]

No return for the Bride, the church you consistently have been saying that throughout this post. The problem is you have to throw out scriptures like 1st Thessalonians 4 which says we meet Him in the air. You have to throw out 1st Corinthians 15:52 to hold that view. You have to say scholars of old who believed in the church being caught up before the time of the Tribulation had it wrong. You even must say Jesus lied when He promised His church she would not go through that time,

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The Greek for the word temptation is "Peirasmos" a time of Trial, or proving. The Tribulation is the final step of Christ in the Redemption process. Not only did man need to be redeemed but Christ was also to redeem all of creation. To do that He must put it through trial or proving, tempatation if judgment. So that He completes the terms of the title deed redemption contained in the little book with seven seals.

This was not just a promise to the church at Philadelphia but to all believers who are saved during this the time of the Church. A time not seen by the Old Testament prophets, hidden to them, but revealed by Holy men of God in the writings of the Church, the New Testament.

We see the purpose of that time of temptation, of trial of proving or Tribulation in

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

These too must be redeemed. The whole creation growns and travails due to the curse and the prince that rules them. The prince who you say is bound is ruling the earth because the curse has not been lifted, the earth has yet to be redeemed. For Christ is the perfect redeemer. Every realm that came under the curse of Adam’s sin, must be redeemed! It must also be redeemed by the Last Adam. As the kinsman redeemer was not to just redeen the kinsman but t he property of the kinsman. All this must occur.

Revelation 4 must also be throne out for John, "saw four-and-twenty seats round about the throne, not empty, but filled with four-and-twenty elders, presbyters, representing, very probably, the whole church of God, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament state; not the ministers of the church, but rather the representatives of the people. Their sitting denotes their honour, rest, and satisfaction; their sitting about the throne signifies their relation to God, their nearness to him, the sight and enjoyment they have of him. i1They are clothed in white raiment, the righteousness of the saints, both imputed and inherent; they had on their heads crowns of gold,i0 signifying the honour and authority given them of God, and the glory they have with him. All these may in a lower sense be applied to the gospel church on earth, in its worshipping assemblies; and, in the higher sense, to the church triumphant in heaven."

You are a disgusting liar and I don't use that word often. I have thrown nothing out of the Bible. If you are too simple minded to discuss scripture without lying then don't discuss Scripture. Why is it that you followers of Darby's doctrine of a parenthesis Church cannot be honest but must continually and falsely accuse those who dispute that false doctrine of throwing away Scripture.

The truth is you cannot debate on the merits so you must make false accusations! Disgusting!