The Virgin Mary and Original Sin

[J. Jump]

J.Jump... do you honestly believe that its a false notion that God sends people to hell?

It is not a direct action by God of which blame can be placed on Him for the action. Will He send the people into the Lake of Fire. I don't know, the Bible says these things will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Does God actually do it, probably, but it doesn't directly say.

But irregardless it is not because of the actions of God that those will go, but because of their rejection of the salvation that God made available to them.

Hope that clarifies where I'm coming from.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: It's not the idea that they haven't heard. It's the fact that they don't want to hear. I believe that's laid on in Romans 1.

HP: First Roman 1 does NOT speak of the guilt of the heathen in relationship to the rejection of the gospel. It has nothing to do with the gospel at all. They simply rejected the light that they had. The gospel was not part of that light. They did not even have the OT law as it was given to the Jews, but their conscience did in fact convict them for the light of right and wrong they did possessed. We should not confuse the light of the message of hope, i.e., the gospel, with the light of conscience, which convicts them of sin.

JJ: I do not believe that God elects some to salvation and damns others to hell.

HP: You very well may deny that you believe that, but I believe if you were consistent with other things you believe, you would be forced to accept the notion of the predestination of the damned. I know you would deny that you do, but in order to establish that you don’t you have to insert notions contrary to the Word of God and reason in order to be seen consistent. You establish salvation as mere justice for God to provide man a Savior instead of the grace it is by making al men born astranged from God yet sentenced to eternal damnation from the womb. You tell us that we have nothing to do with our salvation on one hand and then tell us it is up to us we must ‘accept’ it on another.

You tell us that all men hear and have an opportunity to accept the gospel. Prove that. You tell us that we are dead in our trespasses and sins, and lack the ability to do anything but sin. You tell us that we cannot come to God without God granting us the ability to do so. You then tell sinful men that they must exercise their wills in ‘acceptance’ after telling them that their wills have nothing to do with salvation, nor could their wills have any effect, for they can only sin and that alone. If man is totally dead, lacking any and all ability to turn to God until He grants to them needed requisite abilities, there can only be one explanation for all those finding their eternal home in hell, i.e., God never granted to them those needed abilities, thereby predestining them to their eternal damnation.


Are these not fair representations of that which you believe? Which one is in error? If I have misrepresented your ideas, show me how. If I am in error, I will apologize first to you and also the list.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gekko: umm... adam came from dirt. eve came from adams rib. Jesus was made human by His Father. the seed put into mary. and voila. a human being pops out.

HP: The problem it that God did not prophesy that He was going to create Christ as He did man, but rather that Christ was going to come from the seed of man, made like unto us. He took not upon Himself the form of a new race, or the form of angels, but rather took upon Himself the ‘seed of Abraham.’ One cannot get around the clear genealogies that God placed within Scripture, not only to establish for the Jews that He was from the line of David and as such a rightful heir to the throne and the prophesied Messiah, but also that he was made a man like us, with like passions and propensities, tempted in all points like as we are, and as such is our faithful High Priest. He knows what it is to be a man like unto His brethren.

 

[gekko]

did Jesus have the genes from mary?

if he did. was Jesus female?

he came from the seed of abraham. yes. the line of abraham. the geneology of abraham.

 

[J. Jump]

First Roman 1 does NOT speak of the guilt of the heathen in relationship to the rejection of the gospel. It has nothing to do with the gospel at all. They simply rejected the light that they had. The gospel was not part of that light. They did not even have the OT law as it was given to the Jews, but their conscience did in fact convict them for the light of right and wrong they did possessed. We should not confuse the light of the message of hope, i.e., the gospel, with the light of conscience, which convicts them of sin.

You are stating something that I never said. I didn't say they had the gospel message. I stated that they didn't want to hear from God. God is not going to reveal something to someone who has shown that they aren't interested in hearing from Him anyway.

This is an area that there is not a lot of Light on. Somehow God has given people enough information along with the work of the Holy Spirit that they can show an interest in what has already been revealed to them. If they the shown an interest in that then God will increase the Light. If not then there is no need in revealing more to them, because they don't want to know anyway.

You very well may deny that you believe that

So why is that not enough for you? I told you I don't hold to the tenets of Calvinism and I don't. So why you are doing is calling me a liar. Sorry but I have no reason to be dishonest with you.

you would be forced to accept the notion of the predestination of the damned

I'm not forced to believe that because it is a false teaching and in no way does my denying this false teaching contradict what I do believe.

You tell us that we have nothing to do with our salvation on one hand and then tell us it is up to us we must ‘accept’ it on another.

That the way the Bible explains it, so that's the way I believe it. It is a gift that must be accepted or received however you want to say it. But it has nothing to do with us in that we can not physically do anything for it. I can't sell all my possessions and give them to the poor. I can't pray enough. I can't walk an old lady across the street enough. I can't give enough. I can't be baptized. I can't sing enough songs in the choir, give enough money to the church, attend enough Sunday/Wednesday services. I can't study my Bible enough. I can't feed the hunger and shelter the homeless enough, etc. etc. etc. Eternal salvation is based only on the physical works of Jesus Christ in His death and shed blood as the Sacrifice the Lamb of God. That's it. That's where the Bible puts the period, so that's the end of dicussion. Believe God's Scripture or believe the teachings of man.

salvation as mere justice for God to provide man a Savior instead of the grace

Salvation is by grace not by justice. God is a just God and as being everyone deserves the Lake of Fire. But because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross God could set aside His justice and act in mercy toward sinners, because His justice had been satisified on the cross.

You tell us that all men hear and have an opportunity to accept the gospel.

Now you are inserting words into my mouth. Everyone has the opportunity to respond to God. No not every single individual that has ever existed has heard the name of Jesus Christ. But it's not because they wanted to and just didn't have an opportunity. It was because they weren't even interested in hearing from God in the first place. God does not force Himself on you or anyone else.

You tell us that we are dead in our trespasses and sins, and lack the ability to do anything but sin.

The Bible tells us that all are dead in trespasses and sin, meaning that each person is born with a spirit that is dead. A spirit that can not perceive anything outside of the work of the Holy Spirit in their life in regard to salvation and that includes the initial revelation that God gives to everyone concerning Himself.

Is an unsaved person doing nothing but going around 100% of the time 365 days a year sinning? No. But anything that he/she would do that seems to be good or moral will be done out of a selfish ambition or motive. Their action may not be sinful, but their motive will not be pure.

You then tell sinful men that they must exercise their wills in ‘acceptance’ after telling them that their wills have nothing to do with salvation, nor could their wills have any effect, for they can only sin and that alone.

No that's not what I said. You need to quit inserting words into my mouth. They through the work of the Holy Spirit must accept Christ as His shed blood and death as their Substitute. The key to all that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know the ins and outs of how the Holy Spirit works, because we are not privy to that information in Scripture, so I can't tell you how that works itself out. That's just the way God lays it out so I believe it.

If man is totally dead, lacking any and all ability to turn to God until He grants to them needed requisite abilities, there can only be one explanation for all those finding their eternal home in hell, i.e., God never granted to them those needed abilities, thereby predestining them to their eternal damnation.

Incorrect. God makes a way for ALL men to come to salvation. That's what He said and that's what I believe whether I know how He works that out or not.

Are these not fair representations of that which you believe? Which one is in error? If I have misrepresented your ideas, show me how. If I am in error, I will apologize first to you and also the list.

Absolutely not. As I told you before, which should have sufficed, I do not believe in the tenets of Calvinism. I think they destroy the clear teaching of the Scriptures.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: It was because they weren't even interested in hearing from God in the first place.

HP: Establish that by Scripture.

 

[J. Jump]

All those accusing remarks with a promise of an apology, yet no apology :tongue3: Just more questions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: All those accusing remarks with a promise of an apology, yet no apology Just more questions.

HP: You have yet to substantiate your statements with Scripture. Show me the evidence that I am wrong. I have not said you state every thing you believe openly. What I am trying to do is show you the logical ends of your arguments are in effect no different than those of the standard Calvinistic position, as much as you claim they are. If man is necessitated from birth estranged from God, God Must be the initiator of any ‘choosing” etc,. If God is the sole initiator of the choosing, then God is responsible for withholding the abilities to choose from the rest. You end up in the same kettle of necessitated fatalism as the Calvinist.

Substantiate your claims that those that Romans 1 states that all the heathen that will be lost are lost because ‘they don’t want to hear” the gospel.

 

[J. Jump]

Well it's just as I thought. It was a false offer of an apology. I have shown you that I do not believe in the tenets of Calvinism and yet you still can't eat crow. Typical!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I wish to thank everyone that has been involved in this thread for their participation. I have enjoyed the discussion and feel that I have gained from it. I have learned the basis of many opinions different form my own, and for that I am indebted to those on the thread that have taken the time to interact.

No, I can make no absolute claim as to the physical nature of Christ. I have only the testimony of Scripture as revealed it to me in light of my limited understanding and abilities to comprehend. I am sure that I heard a hearty “Amen!” coming from JJ and BD17. Just the same, I believe that I have raised some pertinent issues, that even those failing to see things from the same perspective, can hopefully feel that they have gained some insight in some small measure from our discussions.

I am going to have to apply myself to some other tasks at hand and will not be able to keep up the level of involvement I have had in the past. I hope to be able to respond at least a little in the future.

I will never forget the words of Scripture my father emphasized to me. “Study to show “thyself”, (not your neighbor, your friends, your family or your Sunday school class etc.) approved unto God.” My prayer is that each one of us might do just that and find that end that we have been found approved unto God. Right doctrine has no power to save, although I believe it can and does have a great impact on the effectiveness of truth, not only our lives but those we come in contact with.

I have always said that I count my friends, not in how they treat me when we agree, but in how they treat me when we don’t agree. I believe I have found some true friends on this list.

May God richly bless each and every one of you!! Until we meet again, may the peace of God dwell within each and everyone richly!

Heavenly Pilgrim

 

[Eliyahu]

did Jesus have the genes from mary?

if he did. was Jesus female?

he came from the seed of abraham. yes. the line of abraham. the geneology of abraham.

Are you sure that Abraham is from the seed of Abraham?
Mary is not the Biological Mother but a surrogate mother.
Don't misunderstand Heb 2:16 as "the seed of Abraham" is not noun form but adjective form> I would translate it as:
"the nature of the seed of Abraham"

I already explained this in my previous posts:
I believe Jesus was born by Holy Spirit as we read in Mt 1:20 in Greek.
He was born out of Holy Spirit already before He came out of Mary. ( Gennao verb was translated as " beget" "begotten" all the time, never as "conceive"

Word became flesh, not the Sperm, the Ovum of Mary was not used.. Mary's Ovum was not designed to be fertilized with Word, but with Sperm.

Jesus was born in Mary by Holy Spirit as a perfect Human Embryo. (Mt 1:20, Heb 10:4-7, etc)

The blood shed at the Cros was not inherited from Mary. He came to save Adam's race ( 1 Cor 15)

Jesus worked before Mary, Abraham was glad to see His days. Jews were upset when they heard Jesus saying " Before Abraham was I am" ( Jn 8:58, 56-58)

Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt. Did he know about Christ? Yes, Read Ex 23:20-23.
There are many verses where you can find Jesus was working in OT times.

Jesus was Sinless, Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior.
She was a Hell-bound woman, but was saved by grace thru Jesus.

 

[J. Jump]

Mary is not the Biological Mother but a surrogate mother.

Where do you all get this stuff. If Jesus didn't have any human genetics then He wasn't human. You run into all kinds of trouble and contradictions with these beliefs.

 

[gekko]

J.Jump...

if Jesus got his human genetics from mary - he'd have about 98% or so of the female chromosomes. with that - Jesus would be female.

do you believe Jesus was female?

is it hard for you to believe that God put human genetics into the seed that He planted in mary?

 

[J. Jump]

is it hard for you to believe that God put human genetics into the seed that He planted in mary?

It sounds as though it is equally hard for you to believe that God used Mary's egg, so that He was actually genetically tied to David (just like the Bible says) and somehow through the action of the Holy Spirit was made male.

That's no more hard to believe than what you purpose and the promises of God are left in tack. Your way the promises of God are destroyed.

 

[Eliyahu]

Where do you all get this stuff. If Jesus didn't have any human genetics then He wasn't human. You run into all kinds of trouble and contradictions with these beliefs.

Do you believe this ?
Mt 3: 9 think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Do you believe this ?
Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son

Who has begotten the Son?


Did Jesus become a new Jesus after He saw Abraham ?

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Do you know that Jesus was born by Holy Spirit into the body of Mary( Mt 1:20) ?

Didn't it take place before He was born out of Mary ( Mt 1:25) ?

Is it impossible for God to enflesh His Son with the sinless flesh that Adam and Eve had before they sinned ?

Wasn't God able to create Sinless Adam and Eve in Genesis ?

If Jesus came as a Son of Surrogate Mother, then can He not be a descendant of Abraham ?

 

[Marcia]

Do you believe this ?

Do you know that Jesus was born by Holy Spirit into the body of Mary( Mt 1:20) ?

Didn't it take place before He was born out of Mary ( Mt 1:25) ?

Is it impossible for God to enflesh His Son with the sinless flesh that Adam and Eve had before they sinned ?

Wasn't God able to create Sinless Adam and Eve in Genesis ?

If Jesus came as a Son of Surrogate Mother, then can He not be a descendant of Abraham ?

Jesus was not incarnated as a human before birth in Bethlehem. The problem with saying that Jesus is just "enfleshed" is that it does not make him a descendant of David through Mary, as the Bible tells us he is. To be a descendant means he had human genes.

The other problem with saying Mary is not the biological mother is similar to Docetism, an ancient heresy that denies the human nature of Jesus. Jesus was not "created" from nothing but was born as a human baby. His conception was supernatural because of the Holy Spirit, but to deny Jesus' human origins from Mary is, in effect, to deny his participation in the human race, which the Bible says he had.

Heb. 2 tells us that Jesus had to become human and made like men in order to atone for our sins.

14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

 

[J. Jump]

The problem with saying that Jesus is just "enfleshed" is that it does not make him a descendant of David through Mary, as the Bible tells us he is. To be a descendant means he had human genes.

The other problem with saying Mary is not the biological mother is similar to Docetism, an ancient heresy that denies the human nature of Jesus. Jesus was not "created" from nothing but was born as a human baby. His conception was supernatural because of the Holy Spirit, but to deny Jesus' human origins from Mary is, in effect, to deny his participation in the human race, which the Bible says he had.

Exactly...no humanity...no salvation! He is completely human (minus the nature to sin) through Mary (I don't know exactly how that happened - as we are not told) and He is completely God (the only begotten Son of God).

He has to be human and He has to be God. If He is missing one then He can not be the Savior.

 

[Eliyahu]

Exactly...no humanity...no salvation! He is completely human (minus the nature to sin) through Mary (I don't know exactly how that happened - as we are not told) and He is completely God (the only begotten Son of God).

He has to be human and He has to be God. If He is missing one then He can not be the Savior.

Are you saying "No Humanity without through Virgin Mary" ?

Humanity was quite possible through Another Adam.

 

[Eliyahu]

Jesus was not incarnated as a human before birth in Bethlehem. The problem with saying that Jesus is just "enfleshed" is that it does not make him a descendant of David through Mary, as the Bible tells us he is. To be a descendant means he had human genes.

The other problem with saying Mary is not the biological mother is similar to Docetism, an ancient heresy that denies the human nature of Jesus. Jesus was not "created" from nothing but was born as a human baby. His conception was supernatural because of the Holy Spirit, but to deny Jesus' human origins from Mary is, in effect, to deny his participation in the human race, which the Bible says he had.

Heb. 2 tells us that Jesus had to become human and made like men in order to atone for our sins.

I do not know about Docetism or Monophysithism.

If you have a Tube baby, son, is he not your son?

If anyone was born in Abraham's family but as a Tube baby, is he not a descendant of Abraham ?

1) Are you saying Ovum of Mary was fertilized with Word of God? Was the Word become Sperm ? Please answer yes or no.

2) Do you believe that Jesus had the brain before His incarnation. Where was the brain gone, if Mary's ovum and Word of God formed a new life and thereby a new brain?

3) Are you claiming that Jesus was created newly by Mary?
How is the relation between the person of Jesus before Incarnation and the new person Jesus with the body formed between Mary and Holy Spirit?

Where was the old Jesus gone ?

Do you believe that Jesus existed and worked during Old Testament times?

When do you think Abraham saw the days of Jesus?

Was Baptist John wrong when he said " God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham" ?

How could angels and Jehova eat the food prepared by Abraham( Gen 18:1-8) Is anything too hard for the LORD? ( Gen 18:14)

Read Heb 7:1-8.
Did Melchizedek have an earthly mother and earthly father ?
How does Heb 7 say Melchizedek is like unto Son of God?
Isn't it saying that Melchizedek and Son of God are very similar each other in those aspects: no father, no mother, king of righteousness, king of peace, eternal priest, without beginning, without end ? Isn't it the comparison between two photos of one person between the one taken in young age and the other in old age?

How did Jacob wrestle with an Angel and say that he has seen God face to face?
( Gen 32:30)

Are you denying that God can create anything from nothing, and the flesh from dust ?

 

[J. Jump]

Eliyahu Scripture disagrees with your stance, but if you want to continue to believe that you may.