The Virgin Mary and Original Sin

[DHK]

HP: You are directly implying that Abraham worshipped Melchizedik. Where do Scriptures indicate that Abraham ‘worshipped’ him?

As I indicated, Melchizedek was a Christophany. This is clearly pointed out in Hebrews 7:1-10. Yes Abraham worshipped Him, for in doing so He was worshipping God. Paying tithes is a form of worship. The only one that has the power to bless such as Melchizedek did is God. Look again at the Scripture:

Hebrews 7:1-9 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
--Tithing is a form of worship.

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

Genesis 14:19-20 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

 

[DHK]

When the tube baby is conceived by a surrogate mother, the baby is already a human embryo. Likewise, when Mary conceived Jesus, He was already a perfect Human Embryo.
This is confirmed by Bible.
Matt 1:20 το γαρ εν αυτη γεννθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου
The one in her is born by Holy Spirit.

How can we hear "born" even before He was not born out of Mary yet?
He was born already by Holy Spirit, before He came out of Mary.

The question here is not Ovum and Sperm, but whether or not we can still call someone as a descendant even if he is a Tube Baby.

First, your assertion that the word "gennaw, gennao" is tenuous at best. The word does mean conceived.

gennaw

gennao (from Strong's)
from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Consider other translations as well:
(Mat 1:20) And as he thought upon these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take to you Mary as your wife. For that in her is fathered of the Holy Spirit. (MKJV)

(Mat 1:20) But while he thought on these things, behold the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost. (Darby)

Matthew 1:20 But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. (ASV)

Matthew 1:20 But when he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take to yourself Mary, your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. (WEB)

Translation after translation gives the rendering of conceived. Even the Modern King James translates it as "Fathered" which still means conceived. None of them translate it obscurley as "born" as you suggest. Where do you get this information from? What is the basis for you to assert that "born" should be the right translation?

Now other Scripture

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
--What does it mean "her seed," when a woman has no seed? Only the man has the seed. It is an obvious reference to the virgin birth of Christ.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
--"Made of a woman." What does this mean? It simply means that Mary was the vessel that God used to bring Christ into the world. Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Since man is born of man (as the seed is passed down), the expression here implies something different. It implies that this one had another nature, something different than just a human nature. "Made of woman" implies that he did have a human nature, but it wasn't just a human nature; what else did it consist of. The answer of course was the He was divine as well.
DHK

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Tithing is a form of worship.

HP: You logic takes quantum leaps. Sure tithing can be a form of worship, but just because you give it to the church you are in attendance to does not mean you are worshiping the church. Neither did Abraham worship Melchizedek when he paid tithes to him, at least as far as I have read the Scriptures thus far. The Scriptures you posted did not say anything about him worshipping Melchizedek. Melchizedek was simply a means to the end of his worship. Abraham worshiped the Living God, not the priest Melchizedek. If he worshiped the priest, it is not stated as such in the Scriptures I have read. Paying tithes to a person or church on this earth does not equate to worshipping them.

 

[Eliyahu]

First, your assertion that the word "gennaw, gennao" is tenuous at best. The word does mean conceived.

gennao was translated dozens of times in Mt 1:2-16, as begat.
Conceive was rather translated from Sulambanow as in Lk 1:31.

Consider other translations as well:

Translation after translation gives the rendering of conceived. Even the Modern King James translates it as "Fathered" which still means conceived. None of them translate it obscurley as "born" as you suggest. Where do you get this information from? What is the basis for you to assert that "born" should be the right translation?

Now other Scripture

Translations before the modern life science was developped didn't have any idea about the conception and pregnance.
Even modern versions neglected this point. I may be the first one asserting this point. I am personally very sure about this.
As for Born, if you look at gennao verb further, you will find it was used only for begotten, begat.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
--What does it mean "her seed," when a woman has no seed? Only the man has the seed. It is an obvious reference to the virgin birth of Christ.

zera(seed) can mean seed, offspring, child and therefore it doesn't specify between surrogate son and biological son. However, this is the most possible verse to deny my assertion.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
--"Made of a woman." What does this mean? It simply means that Mary was the vessel that God used to bring Christ into the world. Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

The word is ginnomai which means come, become, come out of, therefore it means that he came out of a woman. It doesn't say production by a woman.

Which part of Mary do you think has formed the body of Jesus ?
Blood, Sweat, Hair, Flesh, Ovum, or nothing ?

 

[DHK]

Translations before the modern life science was developped didn't have any idea about the conception and pregnance.
Even modern versions neglected this point. I may be the first one asserting this point. I am personally very sure about this.
As for Born, if you look at gennao verb further, you will find it was used only for begotten, begat.

This is very interesting indeed.
So you think that your translation is better than all the other translations, including newer and updated translations which do have plenty of knowledge about the difference between the meanings of conception and birth. You insist that "born" is better, because you say so. You disregard the many highly qualified scholars that put much research and effort into translating all these different translations that go entirely against your idea of the translation of the word.
In fact you freely admit I may be the first one asserting this point.
If you are the first one then know and realize that your poiint is no doubt wrong.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Paying tithes to a person or church on this earth does not equate to worshipping them.

Paying tithes to God, and being blessed by God is most definitely worship, and that is exactly what happened.
DHK

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Paying tithes to God, and being blessed by God is most definitely worship, and that is exactly what happened.

HP: Since when was ‘Melchizedek king of Salem’ translated ‘God?” You are assuming something to be true that you have offered no evidence of. You are avoiding the issue of Abraham bringing tithes to worsuip God via the 'means' of a priest NOT God, as not constituting worship to the 'means used' or the 'priest involved.' When a priest blesses someone are we to just assume they are God? I sure hope not. We would sure have a lot of gods running around and still not have one God.

 

[Eliyahu]

This is very interesting indeed.
So you think that your translation is better than all the other translations, including newer and updated translations which do have plenty of knowledge about the difference between the meanings of conception and birth. You insist that "born" is better, because you say so. You disregard the many highly qualified scholars that put much research and effort into translating all these different translations that go entirely against your idea of the translation of the word.
In fact you freely admit I may be the first one asserting this point.
If you are the first one then know and realize that your poiint is no doubt wrong.
DHK

DHK,
Thank you for your understanding the points.
At my church, one elder disagrees with me, the other elder who has been a Doctor in OB+Gyn for a long time agrees with me.
I do not trust any other human being than God Himself. I ignore 7 billion people on this planet if they are away from the Words of God, and even hundreds of billion people who died in the past are not so important as God to me.
Between God and me, there is none. No one can teach me except Holy Spirit. If I had not have such belief, I would not have to or should not start the translation work. I ignore thousands of Doctors.
KJV translated the same word gennao into begat, begat, as Abraham begat Isaac, Isaac begat Jacob, Jacob begat Judah and his brethren, ...., then suddenly changed it to conceived. I believe it was because translators were not confident with the word, with the life science.
When I translated Mt 28:1, the same thing happened again, the Sabbath should be plural but all the translations have it singular.
Of course, sometimes, Sabbath is denoted in plural even though it is singular in actual meaning as we read in Luke 6:1. The point there in Mt 28:1 is that there were 2 sabbaths, one regular and the other passover sabbath, which explains 3 days and 3 nights. Therefore I believe it should be Sabbaths, plural, even though all the other translations have it as singular. I checked with Jews, but they are split again in liguistic and grammar.
Luke 6:1 may be explained as a habitual aspect, even though it happened on the Second-First Sabbath. The first-first sabbath was the sabbath during the Days of Unleavened Bread on which Jesus was in the tomb. Next day was the day of Firstfruits on which Jesus was resurrected, until which no harvesting was allowed. Luke 6:1 occurred in the next weekend. Only Darby translated this correctly. One day Lord Jesus gave me the insight that "I am the one who slept in the tomb and knows how many nights I was there"

As for Birth of Jesus, I have the biblical supports again.
1) Mt 1:20 The one in her is born out of Holy Spirit
2) Heb 1:5 Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee ( God has begotten Son!)
3) Heb 10:5 a body hast thou prepared me. (" I "exist already and the body was prepared by God)
4) Gal 4:4 - came out of a woman ( ginnomai), Darby was correct " come of woman"
5) Before Abraham was, I am ( John 8:58) - Jesus confirms that He is the same person who met Abraham, worked during OT times
6) Moses esteemed the reproaches of Christ greater riches than treasures of Egypt (Heb 11:26)
7) Though we have known Christ after flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more ( 2 Cor 5:16)
8) Jesus Himself asked the Q
If David then call Him Lord, how is he his son ? ( Mt 22:45)