The Virgin Mary and Original Sin

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu Scripture disagrees with your stance, but if you want to continue to believe that you may.

My interpretation is based on the scriptures as I referred to, but the problem is that you cannot answer any of my questions properly.
In this case we may agree to disagree each other and only the God is the Judge and my interpretation will turn out to be correct on that Day.

 

[J. Jump]

Elyiahu you couldn't be further from the truth. Your interpretation leaves Jesus as another created being if He in fact had to create His humanity.

He didn't create His humanity. He was human, because He had a human mother.

He didn't need a surrogate womb if your interpretation is correct. He could have just floated down on some giant cyrstal like superman did and God could have orchestrated Mary's path that she would have been walking right where He landed.

Your view is non-Biblical at best.

 

[Marcia]

If you have a Tube baby, son, is he not your son?


1) Are you saying Ovum of Mary was fertilized with Word of God? Was the Word become Sperm ? Please answer yes or no.

2) Do you believe that Jesus had the brain before His incarnation. Where was the brain gone, if Mary's ovum and Word of God formed a new life and thereby a new brain?

3) Are you claiming that Jesus was created newly by Mary?
How is the relation between the person of Jesus before Incarnation and the new person Jesus with the body formed between Mary and Holy Spirit?

Where was the old Jesus gone ?

Do you believe that Jesus existed and worked during Old Testament times?

When do you think Abraham saw the days of Jesus?

Was Baptist John wrong when he said " God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham" ?

How could angels and Jehova eat the food prepared by Abraham( Gen 18:1-8) Is anything too hard for the LORD? ( Gen 18:14)

Read Heb 7:1-8.
Did Melchizedek have an earthly mother and earthly father ?
How does Heb 7 say Melchizedek is like unto Son of God?
Isn't it saying that Melchizedek and Son of God are very similar each other in those aspects: no father, no mother, king of righteousness, king of peace, eternal priest, without beginning, without end ? Isn't it the comparison between two photos of one person between the one taken in young age and the other in old age?

How did Jacob wrestle with an Angel and say that he has seen God face to face?
( Gen 32:30)

Are you denying that God can create anything from nothing, and the flesh from dust ?

I think a "tube baby" still must come from ova and sperm, right?

I don't understand all your questions, but we have to go by the Bible. Jesus was a descendant through Mary of King David. This means he had Mary's genes. The Bible would not say descendant if it did not mean that in the ordinary way - the way people reading the Bible a long time ago would understand it.

I don't think the HS was "sperm." The conception was miraculous and since God does not give us details on how it was done, I decline to speculate.

Re the brain: Jesus has always been God but he was not incarnated with a physical brain until conceived and born of Mary. This does not mean Jesus did not have intelligence before. He had intelligence the same way God does, and God does not have a body.

Jesus existed before birth from Mary - he added a human nature to his deity when he incarnated. No one else has done this and this is not something we totally understand in terms of how it's done, but the Bible is clear that Jesus was fully human and fully God.

The "old Jesus" - Do you mean Jesus before the incarnation? He was God the Son eternally.

I believe Jesus made appearances in the OT but not as an incarnated human. This means he could have appeared as a man, but it was temporary, like some of the angels did. These appearances are not incarnations.

Abraham seeing the days of Jesus -- I don't understand the question.

What John said was hyperbole -- exaggerated language to make a point. Yes, God make something from nothing, but this is not how we are told Jesus was conceived or incarnated. We are told he was a descendant of David and was fully man, and had the flesh and blood of men.

Melchizedek is usually thought of as a foreshadowing of Christ or some say was an early appearance of Christ. We don't know enough about Melchizedek to say more and we should not base theology about Christ on it since the Bible does not give us the info.

As far as Jacob saying he saw God face to face, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the term "face to face" in Hebrew means an intimate encounter. It does not mean he saw God. Also, some believe this was Jesus he wrestled with. If so, it could have been an OT appearance of Jesus, which is called Christophany. A Christophany is not a human incarnation.

 

[Eliyahu]

Elyiahu you couldn't be further from the truth. Your interpretation leaves Jesus as another created being if He in fact had to create His humanity.

He didn't create His humanity. He was human, because He had a human mother.

He didn't need a surrogate womb if your interpretation is correct. He could have just floated down on some giant cyrstal like superman did and God could have orchestrated Mary's path that she would have been walking right where He landed.

Your view is non-Biblical at best.

Your comment sounds too much Jumping over what I didn't say.
You say what I didn't say or contrary to what I said, because I said Jesus is eternal God and worked before comining into the world and therefore He couldn't be a created person.
You are saying Jesus was created by Mary, but I say Jesus is the Creator of Mary and the whole Universe and worked before Mary.

 

[J. Jump]

You are saying Jesus was created by Mary

First of all if someone can't even follow what you are saying that should tell you something

I am not saying that Mary created Jesus. That couldn't be further from the truth. However, Jesus did have her genes, because He had to in order for the Biblical promise to David to be in tact.

Your view destroys that promise and makes God to be a liar. But instead of conforming to Scripture you make up this doctrine that some how God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit or all three just took some of David's genes and put them into the process and just used Mary as a womb. Sorry that's not what the Bible says.

Again He didn't "need" a womb. He could have floated down a river and made sure that the right person was there at the right time. Or floated down on a giant crystal like superman. Those make about as much sense as your thinking.

Just believe the Bible for what it says.

 

[Eliyahu]

I think a "tube baby" still must come from ova and sperm, right?

When the tube baby is conceived by a surrogate mother, the baby is already a human embryo. Likewise, when Mary conceived Jesus, He was already a perfect Human Embryo.
This is confirmed by Bible.
Matt 1:20 το γαρ εν αυτη γεννθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου
The one in her is born by Holy Spirit.

How can we hear "born" even before He was not born out of Mary yet?
He was born already by Holy Spirit, before He came out of Mary.

The question here is not Ovum and Sperm, but whether or not we can still call someone as a descendant even if he is a Tube Baby.

What I asked you is " if someone is your Tube Baby, can you not call him as your descendant ?" yes or no, please.

I don't understand all your questions, but we have to go by the Bible. Jesus was a descendant through Mary of King David. This means he had Mary's genes.

Mary is the surrogate mother, where is the evidence that Jesus had Mary's genes? We have to go by Bible, please show me the Bible.
Jesus came into world as if Mary's descendant, but where is the proof that Mary's ovum was used ?

The Bible would not say descendant if it did not mean that in the ordinary way - the way people reading the Bible a long time ago would understand it.

In that case, even Joseph was not involved. If the concept of descendant should be perfect, the sperm of Joseph should have been used.
If Mary's ovum could be used, why should the sperm of Joseph not used ?
If the Joseph's sperm was used and Jesus came into the human embryo by spirit, then He would have been the perfect descendant of David.
If the Mary's ovum was protected from the sins, why could the sperm of Joseph not protected from sins ?

I don't think the HS was "sperm." The conception was miraculous and since God does not give us details on how it was done, I decline to speculate.

Why could you not accept the miraculous enfleshing of Jesus as a perfect human embryo?

Which part of Mary's body became the body of Jesus ?

Re the brain: Jesus has always been God but he was not incarnated with a physical brain until conceived and born of Mary. This does not mean Jesus did not have intelligence before. He had intelligence the same way God does, and God does not have a body.

At the end of this post, you agreed that Jacob wrestled with Jesus. Could Jacob wrestle anyone without body ?
How God eat the food prepared by Abraham in Genesis 18:1-8?

Jesus existed before birth from Mary - he added a human nature to his deity when he incarnated. No one else has done this and this is not something we totally understand in terms of how it's done, but the Bible is clear that Jesus was fully human and fully God.

He was fully human and fully God. Do you believe Jesus is the same for yesterday, today and forever ( Heb 13:8)
Do you believe that Adam was created in the likeness of God ?

The "old Jesus" - Do you mean Jesus before the incarnation? He was God the Son eternally.

yes.

I believe Jesus made appearances in the OT but not as an incarnated human. This means he could have appeared as a man, but it was temporary, like some of the angels did. These appearances are not incarnations.

correct

Abraham seeing the days of Jesus -- I don't understand the question.

Jesus met Abraham

What John said was hyperbole -- exaggerated language to make a point.

John didn't say that, but Jesus said so. Was Jesus exaggerating, when he said the following ?

John 8:56 your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Did Jesus deny that He saw Abraham?

Yes, God make something from nothing, but this is not how we are told Jesus was conceived or incarnated. We are told he was a descendant of David and was fully man, and had the flesh and blood of men.

Then the sperm of Joseph should have been used.
What you say is :
Joseph+Mary is not OK
Mary+HS is OK
HS alone is impossible.

Melchizedek is usually thought of as a foreshadowing of Christ or some say was an early appearance of Christ. We don't know enough about Melchizedek to say more and we should not base theology about Christ on it since the Bible does not give us the info.

I would replace my answer with the following verse:

Heb 5:11
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

As far as Jacob saying he saw God face to face, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the term "face to face" in Hebrew means an intimate encounter. It does not mean he saw God. Also, some believe this was Jesus he wrestled with. If so, it could have been an OT appearance of Jesus, which is called Christophany. A Christophany is not a human incarnation.

No one could see God because He is holy and the sinners cannot approach Him. Jesus was the one whom the sinful human beings could see because He is a redeemer. Jacob confess at his deathbed that this Malack ( Special Angel = Preincarnate Jesus) has redeemed him from all the evils ( Read Gen 48:16)

How could Jacob wrestle with Jesus if He had no flesh? Didn't Jesus have the flesh at that time ?

How the Angel ( Malack in Gene 31:11) declare that he is God ( Gen 31:13) ?

 

[Marcia]

I am not going to answer all these questions because you are not using the Bible to inform your Christology, so some of these questions are just crazy to me. Sorry.

The Bible does not say Jesus was a tube baby! Mary was a descendant of David, not Joseph. And God had prophesied many times that Jesus would be a descendant of David and the Bible says he was.

Joseph was not the biological father. Mary was the biological mother.

Maybe since Jesus was fully God, the sin nature of Mary, assuming it could be passed on through her physically to Jesus, was not able to exist within the person of Jesus because he was also fully God.

The body is not evil, so this idea that Jesus would get a sin nature from Mary is more Gnostic than biblical.

I don't accept the concept of "enfleshing" Jesus because that would mean Jesus was not fully human and was not a brother "in all respects" to mankind as Hebrews 2 tells us he was. Jesus was not a spirit with an outer flesh or enfleshment -- that is the heresy of Docetism.

I guess God ate the food because he temporarily appeared in a body that was able to eat food. This was not an incarnation. God the Father was never human the way Jesus became human.

If Jacob wrestled with Jesus, then that was Jesus as a Christophany. I already explained that - an appearance of Jesus in possibly human form. We also know angels appear but they are not human and don't have human bodies, but people see them. But that is not the same as being conceived and born as a baby human! Jesus did not incarnate before his birth in Bethlehem.

 

[Marcia]

How the Angel ( Malack in Gene 31:11) declare that he is God ( Gen 31:13) ?

This passage calls the angel "the angel of God." This phrase is usually thought to indicate the pre-incarnate Jesus, a Christophany.

You never heard this about the "angel of God" being a pre-incarnate Jesus?

 

[Eliyahu]

This passage calls the angel "the angel of God." This phrase is usually thought to indicate the pre-incarnate Jesus, a Christophany.

You never heard this about the "angel of God" being a pre-incarnate Jesus?

Genesis 31:11 thru 13 is the story of Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ.

The same Angel ( Malack) is mentioned in Gen 22, Gen 28, Gen 48:16.

Jesus worked at that time.

He was the same person as was shown in John 8:56-58.

His thinking, reasoning, working were the same between John 8 and Genesis. Jesus didn't become a new Jesus.
The only difference is that He came out of a woman. ( Gal 4:4)

Are you claiming that there is a difference between Old Jesus ( shown in Old Testament before Incarnation) and New Jesus ( in New Testament) in His nature and personality?

 

[Eliyahu]

I am not going to answer all these questions because you are not using the Bible to inform your Christology, so some of these questions are just crazy to me. Sorry.

I referred to Matthew 1:20, John 8:56-58, Gen 18:1-8, Heb 13:8, Heb 5:11, Heb 7:1-8.

Are they not Bible? Are you denying that those verses are Bible?

The Bible does not say Jesus was a tube baby! Mary was a descendant of David, not Joseph. And God had prophesied many times that Jesus would be a descendant of David and the Bible says he was.

Did I say that Jesus was a Tube Baby?
My point is that even human beings can insert a human embryo into a body of a woman, then the baby comes out of her as her descendant. But are you saying that God cannot do so ?

Joseph was not the biological father. Mary was the biological mother.

Where do you get this information that Mary was the Biological mother ?

Maybe since Jesus was fully God, the sin nature of Mary, assuming it could be passed on through her physically to Jesus, was not able to exist within the person of Jesus because he was also fully God.

Why don't you answer which part of Mary became the body of Christ ?
If Jesus was fully God, was enfleshing Him with another body of Adam impossible ?

The body is not evil, so this idea that Jesus would get a sin nature from Mary is more Gnostic than biblical.

Gnostic is the word which can be used when someone denies Jesus came in flesh. I don't deny it but Jesus came in another flesh of another Adam.
We have to make clear the difference.

I don't accept the concept of "enfleshing" Jesus because that would mean Jesus was not fully human and was not a brother "in all respects" to mankind as Hebrews 2 tells us he was. Jesus was not a spirit with an outer flesh or enfleshment -- that is the heresy of Docetism.

Even though you don't like it, 1 Tim 3:16 uses it.
God was manifest in Flesh. God existed before, and then came into this world in flesh. Heb 2:14-16 confirms this too.

I guess God ate the food because he temporarily appeared in a body that was able to eat food. This was not an incarnation. God the Father was never human the way Jesus became human.

Nothing is impossible to God. He could show up in any form.

If Jacob wrestled with Jesus, then that was Jesus as a Christophany. I already explained that - an appearance of Jesus in possibly human form. We also know angels appear but they are not human and don't have human bodies, but people see them. But that is not the same as being conceived and born as a baby human! Jesus did not incarnate before his birth in Bethlehem.

Yes there is a difference between His appearance before Incarnation and His appearance after coming out of a woman.

How was Jesus Conceived ?

 

[gekko]

sorry to pop in here so suddenly. i read this a couple pages back:

Did Melchizedek have an earthly mother and earthly father ?

umm. yeah. they didnt record any geneaology when he was around because they didnt have the means to do so. so its not recorded - and it looks to others like he didnt have any earthly father or mother.

 

[Eliyahu]

sorry to pop in here so suddenly. i read this a couple pages back:



umm. yeah. they didnt record any geneaology when he was around because they didnt have the means to do so. so its not recorded - and it looks to others like he didnt have any earthly father or mother.

There are plenty of articles about the view of Melchizedek if you have any access to the libraries of universities. They are split between Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ and Another person like Jesus.
Joseph, son of Jacob is a typical man like Jesus, but he had mother and father.

If anyone say that Meclhizedek had mother and father but they are unknown, then he or she is denying what Bible says in Heb 7: 3, without father, without mother, without descent ( genealogy), without days of beginning, without end of life, abideth as a priest continually.
Who can be like that except Jesus? Where is he gone now if he remains continually without end of life ?

Dead Sea Scrolls reveal that Jews viewed this Melchizedek as the Anointed in Dan 9:26 ( Messiah) ( 11 QMelch) They viewed Melchizedek as the Anointed to declare the Jubilee in Isaiah 61:3

He brought Bread and Wine which reminds us of the Lord's Supper.
Abraham paid the Tithe to him, he must not be a ghost!
The Tithe was from all of what Abraham had, and he blessed Abraham.

 

[Marcia]

Are you claiming that there is a difference between Old Jesus ( shown in Old Testament before Incarnation) and New Jesus ( in New Testament) in His nature and personality?

No, I am simply saying Jesus was not incarnated in the OT.

My point is that even human beings can insert a human embryo into a body of a woman, then the baby comes out of her as her descendant. But are you saying that God cannot do so ?

That's not the point. The point is what the Bible says. The Bible gives every indication that except for the part of the HS in the conception, Jesus was a human embryo with his mother's genes and born like all babies. It does not say Jesus was inserted into the womb, but that he was conceived. In order to be a descendant of David, which is what the Bible says, he had Mary's genes, or he would not be a descendant of David.

Even though you don't like it, 1 Tim 3:16 uses it.
God was manifest in Flesh. God existed before, and then came into this world in flesh. Heb 2:14-16 confirms this too.

This means Jesus came as a man. It has nothing to do with your theories about putting flesh on Jesus - becoming a man and just putting flesh on are not the same thing.

I think your issue with this is that you cannot believe that Jesus can have Mary's genes and yet not have a sin nature. But there is nothing that says a sin nature comes from physical genes. Since Jesus was God, he was unable to have a sin nature, or he wouldn't be God. So even though he had Mary's genes, he did not have a sin nature.

I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over; this is an unproductive discussion, so this is it for me on this thread unless something fresh comes into the discussion. :wavey:

 

[gekko]

melchizidek isn't Christ. melchizidek is melchizidek. he may represent Christ i agree.

that verse in hebrews furthers the argument that there were not records kept in the time of melchizidek.

 

[Eliyahu]

melchizidek isn't Christ. melchizidek is melchizidek. he may represent Christ i agree.

that verse in hebrews furthers the argument that there were not records kept in the time of melchizidek.

You are disbelieving the Bible.
Bible says:
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

You are saying :
He had father, had mother, had the beginning, had the end of life, but had no record.

You are contrary to the Bible.

If He had the end of life, how could he abide a Priest continually ?


How does Hebrews say the difference between the Aaronic Priests and Melchizedek?
Heb 7: 8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth

Hebrews say the normal Aaronic Priests "die"
Melchizedek " lives"
( Didn't he die while Kohathites die ?)

Kohathites died, died, died, Melchizedek lives, still lives.

Which of Priests was a Continual Priest?

 

[DHK]

melchizidek isn't Christ. melchizidek is melchizidek. he may represent Christ i agree.

that verse in hebrews furthers the argument that there were not records kept in the time of melchizidek.

Melchizedek is a man who, for a short period of time in history, mysteriously appears, and just as mysteriously disappears. The New Testament sheds more light on who this mysterious king is. It was a Christophany, an appearance of Christ in the Old Testament. It would have been blasphemous for Abraham to worship and pay tithes to anyone else except God. He recognized him as Divine.
DHK

 

[Eliyahu]

The Bible gives every indication that except for the part of the HS in the conception, Jesus was a human embryo with his mother's genes and born like all babies. It does not say Jesus was inserted into the womb, but that he was conceived. In order to be a descendant of David, which is what the Bible says, he had Mary's genes, or he would not be a descendant of David.

1. Are you saying that any child born by a surrogate mother is not her descendant? I asked this question many times but you never answered me!
I expect you cannot answer me as long as you stick to your belief about the Descendant issue.

2. Do you understand the meaning of "Born" ? Jesus was born already out of Holy Spirit before He was born out of Mary. I said this many times but you don't understand it. Jesus was born already in a perfect human form, before he was born out of Mary. Read Bible Mt 1:20 in Greek.

This means Jesus came as a man. It has nothing to do with your theories about putting flesh on Jesus - becoming a man and just putting flesh on are not the same thing.

You are saying, that if God create another Adam, then he is not a human being, right?
If Jesus came as a man, where was the previous person Jesus gone since He worked during Old Testament times?

I think your issue with this is that you cannot believe that Jesus can have Mary's genes and yet not have a sin nature. But there is nothing that says a sin nature comes from physical genes. Since Jesus was God, he was unable to have a sin nature, or he wouldn't be God. So even though he had Mary's genes, he did not have a sin nature.

Jesus was not only sinless but also spotless, which means that he had any defect or congenital deformity, all human race have been contaminated with the sinful nature or any defects in any form, either small or big, visible or invisible, caused by the sin since Adam and Eve. The blood shed at the Cross was not inherited from Mary.

I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over; this is an unproductive discussion, so this is it for me on this thread unless something fresh comes into the discussion. :wavey:

You never answered my questions properly.
It is up to you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: The blood shed at the Cross was not inherited from Mary.

HP: I am no scientist by any means, but is it not true that every baby develops its own blood supply? What is the import of your statement? It seems to suggest the validity of somewhat of an oxymoron.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: It would have been blasphemous for Abraham to worship and pay tithes to anyone else except God. He recognized him as Divine.

HP: You are directly implying that Abraham worshipped Melchizedik. Where do Scriptures indicate that Abraham ‘worshipped’ him?

 

[Marcia]

1. Are you saying that any child born by a surrogate mother is not her descendant?

Right. A child born from a surrogate mother is not her physical descendant. Are you claiming Mary was just a surrogate for Jesus? I think this is what you are saying.

2. Do you understand the meaning of "Born" ? Jesus was born already out of Holy Spirit before He was born out of Mary. I said this many times but you don't understand it. Jesus was born already in a perfect human form, before he was born out of Mary. Read Bible Mt 1:20 in Greek.

Sorry, I don't know Greek. Jesus was never born as an eternal being, but he was physically born as a human in the incarnation. How could a physical Jesus be "born" of the HS? The HS had part in the conception but Jesus' physical self and body came from Mary.

You are saying, that if God create another Adam, then he is not a human being, right?
If Jesus came as a man, where was the previous person Jesus gone since He worked during Old Testament times?

I don't get the Adam question. Jesus was never created -- He incarnated as a human baby through conception by the HS in Mary's womb, but since Jesus was fully human, he had to have human genes, which he got from Mary.

I answered the question about the "previous person Jesus" in the OT. Jesus was not an incarnated human in the OT. Are you saying he incarnated as a human in the OT?

Jesus was not only sinless but also spotless, which means that he had any defect or congenital deformity, all human race have been contaminated with the sinful nature or any defects in any form, either small or big, visible or invisible, caused by the sin since Adam and Eve. The blood shed at the Cross was not inherited from Mary.

Why do you think having Mary's genes means Jesus had to have a sinful nature? Maybe there has to be conception by both mother and father for there to be a sin nature. Did you ever think of that?



You never answered my questions properly.
It is up to you