The WILL of God

[Wesley Briggman]

I say that it is not God who is weak, but God Who has given us free will and does not force us into heaven, just as He does not force us into hell. We make the choice of all this ourselves

28

[Jhn 15:5 KJV] 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Unless you think God granted you freewill to do as you wish. You are in the same camp that thinks the world is flat!

The Bible not once, says humans, by their free will get saved. It is always, God by his grace, saves.
As for your puppet argument, it is the same argument Paul rejects in Romans 9. If you will not accept what God tells you, then you are walking a dangerous path of disobedience.

#31

[Jas 4:13-16 ESV] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"--
(Invoking their freewill without consideration of God's will.)

14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.

15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that."

16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
So much for the Satanic lie of "freewill".

From Martin Luther, the Reformer:

"Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525"

Excerpts from the above document

An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie

The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature.

Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair

Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin

Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God.

 

[Strannik]

28

[Jhn 15:5 KJV] 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Unless you think God granted you freewill to do as you wish. You are in the same camp that thinks the world is flat!


#31

[Jas 4:13-16 ESV] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"--
(Invoking their freewill without consideration of God's will.)

14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.

15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that."

16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
So much for the Satanic lie of "freewill".

From Martin Luther, the Reformer:

"Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525"

Excerpts from the above document

An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie

The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature.

Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair

Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin

Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God.

Well, to be more precise, I still supported my words with quotations from the Bible, but what do you support your statements with?

 

[Strannik]

28

[Jhn 15:5 KJV] 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Unless you think God granted you freewill to do as you wish. You are in the same camp that thinks the world is flat!


#31

[Jas 4:13-16 ESV] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"--
(Invoking their freewill without consideration of God's will.)

14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.

15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that."

16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
So much for the Satanic lie of "freewill".

From Martin Luther, the Reformer:

"Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525"

Excerpts from the above document

An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie

The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature.

Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair

Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin

Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God.

You have taken a piece of text from the context of the Book and are trying to build your theology on it. This is both bad and unwise.
===========================
¹
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. ² Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. ³ Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. ⁴ Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. ⁵ I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. ⁶ If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burnedJohn 15:1-6
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.---------- In this passage, Jesus says, or rather warns, that without Him we have no salvation. There is no question of simple and everyday actions, although it is clear that they are mostly done with the participation of God.
=======================================================

⁷ If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. ⁸ Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. ⁹ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. ¹⁰ If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. ¹¹ These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. ¹² This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. ¹³ Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. ¹⁴ Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. ¹⁵ Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. ¹⁶ Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. ¹⁷ These things I command you, that ye love one another. ¹⁸ If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. ¹⁹ If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. ²⁰ Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. ²¹ But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me. ²² If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. ²³ He that hateth me hateth my Father also. ²⁴ If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. ²⁵ But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. ²⁶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: ²⁷ And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.John 15:7-27
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.--------------------

And here we see Paul's call not just to "accept" the Word of God,but to live It. Not in words, but in life. So the words of Christ contradict your statement that man does not participate in his salvation at all.

 

[Strannik]

[QUOTE = "AustinC, post: 2683580, member: 16342"] Кажется, вы не подозреваете, что Бог дает только подарки своим детям.
Ребенок смотрит на отца и презирает подарок? Нет.
Бог намеренно дарит свои дары своей возлюбленной. Он не кладет его на угол улицы, а затем садится, чтобы посмотреть, кто может наткнуться на коробку, и, возможно, открыть коробку, в отличие от тех, кто проходит мимо нее. Если бы это было так, Божья любовь была бы меньше, чем земной родитель. Но Бог не такой. Бог выбирает своих детей, а затем щедро раздает им дары из хранилища Своей любви.

Пожалуйста, не обесценивайте Божью любовь, заявляя, что подарок хорош, только если человек его примет. Это делает Бога пассивным слабаком и плохим отцом. Какое ужасное представление о Боге. [/ QUOTE]

You seem unaware that God only gives gifts to his children.
Does a child look at his father and despise the gift? No.
God gives his gifts, very deliberately, to his beloved. He does not place it on a street corner and then sit back to see who might happen upon the box and per chance open the box as opposed to those who walk past it. If that were the case, God's love would be less than an earthly parent. But, God isn't that way. God chooses his children and then lavishes gifts upon them out of the storehouse of His love.

Please, don't cheapen God's love by stating that the gift is only good if a person accepts it. That makes God a passive wimp and a poor father. What an aweful concept of God.

And what do we see?
============================
¹² And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.Matthew 11:12
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.------------------
To get into the Kingdom of Heaven, we need to apply diligence or force
===========================================================
³ And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.³ Matthew 18:3
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.--------------------------
To enter the Kingdom of Heaven, we must become LIKE children. With the same faith and trust.
=====================================================================
²⁰ Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not Matthew 11:20
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.-----------------------------------
And here Jesus reproaches entire cities for rejecting the Lord God Himself against their will.

 

[Strannik]

You seem unaware that God only gives gifts to his children.
Does a child look at his father and despise the gift? No.
God gives his gifts, very deliberately, to his beloved. He does not place it on a street corner and then sit back to see who might happen upon the box and per chance open the box as opposed to those who walk past it. If that were the case, God's love would be less than an earthly parent. But, God isn't that way. God chooses his children and then lavishes gifts upon them out of the storehouse of His love.

Please, don't cheapen God's love by stating that the gift is only good if a person accepts it. That makes God a passive wimp and a poor father. What an aweful concept of God.

So you're wrong. Don't forget about synergy. That is, full participation in the life of both organisms

 

[AustinC]

[QUOTE = "AustinC, post: 2683580, member: 16342"] Кажется, вы не подозреваете, что Бог дает только подарки своим детям.
Ребенок смотрит на отца и презирает подарок? Нет.
Бог намеренно дарит свои дары своей возлюбленной. Он не кладет его на угол улицы, а затем садится, чтобы посмотреть, кто может наткнуться на коробку, и, возможно, открыть коробку, в отличие от тех, кто проходит мимо нее. Если бы это было так, Божья любовь была бы меньше, чем земной родитель. Но Бог не такой. Бог выбирает своих детей, а затем щедро раздает им дары из хранилища Своей любви.

Пожалуйста, не обесценивайте Божью любовь, заявляя, что подарок хорош, только если человек его примет. Это делает Бога пассивным слабаком и плохим отцом. Какое ужасное представление о Боге. [/ QUOTE]


And what do we see?
============================
¹² And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.Matthew 11:12
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.------------------
To get into the Kingdom of Heaven, we need to apply diligence or force
===========================================================
³ And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.³ Matthew 18:3
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.--------------------------
To enter the Kingdom of Heaven, we must become LIKE children. With the same faith and trust.
=====================================================================
²⁰ Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not Matthew 11:20
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.-----------------------------------
And here Jesus reproaches entire cities for rejecting the Lord God Himself against their will.

The Kingdom Jesus spoke of to Israel was found in the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant. It was a covenant with Israel. Therefore you are preaching the law, which never leads to life. The law always leads to death for all who break the law.
At the cross, the law was fulfilled by Jesus. His atonement for His sheep paid the penalty of the law. God tells us we are saved by his grace. There are no "musts" that humans must do. When a "must" is added to salvation, grace is replaced with law. Paul specifically calls that replacement... anathema. No one can be saved by the law. If they could, then Jesus death is not necessary.

 

[percho]

Phil 1:9,10 YLT having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;
Phil 2:10,11 YLT that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor 12:1-3 YLT And concerning the spiritual things, brethren, I do not wish you to be ignorant; ye have known that ye were nations, unto the dumb idols -- as ye were led -- being carried away; wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit.

Joel 2:28,29 YLT And it hath come to pass afterwards, I do pour out My Spirit on all flesh, And prophesied have your sons and your daughters, Your old men do dream dreams, Your young men do see visions. And also on the men-servants, and on the maid-servants, In those days I do pour out My Spirit.

Rev 20:14,15 YLT and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this is the second death; and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Acts 15:18 YLT 'Known from the ages to God are all His works;


Just like Fox news: We report, you decide!

 

[percho]

Gal 3:14 that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.

V's 23-25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

The faith, is very time specific relative to being able for the Spirit to be received.

and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39

 

[Strannik]

The Kingdom Jesus spoke of to Israel was found in the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant. It was a covenant with Israel. Therefore you are preaching the law, which never leads to life. The law always leads to death for all who break the law.
At the cross, the law was fulfilled by Jesus. His atonement for His sheep paid the penalty of the law. God tells us we are saved by his grace. There are no "musts" that humans must do. When a "must" is added to salvation, grace is replaced with law. Paul specifically calls that replacement... anathema. No one can be saved by the law. If they could, then Jesus death is not necessary.

=============================================
We don't live by the Old Testament Law.
----------------------------------
¹⁹ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: ²⁰ For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. ²¹ Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. ²² But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. ²³ For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: ²⁴ For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. ²⁵ But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. ²⁶ If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. ²⁷ Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.James 1:19-27
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Kingdom Jesus spoke of to Israel was found in the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant. It was a covenant with Israel. Therefore you are preaching the law, which never leads to life. The law always leads to death for all who break the law.
At the cross, the law was fulfilled by Jesus. His atonement for His sheep paid the penalty of the law. God tells us we are saved by his grace. There are no "musts" that humans must do. When a "must" is added to salvation, grace is replaced with law. Paul specifically calls that replacement... anathema. No one can be saved by the law. If they could, then Jesus death is not necessary.

The OT law never justified/saved anyone in the Bible!

 

[AustinC]

=============================================
We don't live by the Old Testament Law.
----------------------------------
¹⁹ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: ²⁰ For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. ²¹ Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. ²² But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. ²³ For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: ²⁴ For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. ²⁵ But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. ²⁶ If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. ²⁷ Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.James 1:19-27
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.

Of course we don't. That's my point. Jesus came to Israel to fulfill the Mosaic Covenant. The good news preached to the Nation of Israel is one of repentance so the curses of the law do not fall upon you.

The OT law never justified/saved anyone in the Bible!

Correct, salvation is in the Abrahamic covenant, not in the Mosaic covenant. When we understand the covenants we understand what Jesus is saying to Israel and what Jesus is saying to the children of the promise.

 

[Strannik]

Of course we don't. That's my point. Jesus came to Israel to fulfill the Mosaic Covenant. The good news preached to the Nation of Israel is one of repentance so the curses of the law do not fall upon you.Correct, salvation is in the Abrahamic covenant, not in the Mosaic covenant. When we understand the covenants we understand what Jesus is saying to Israel and what Jesus is saying to the children of the promise.

====================================================================
¹¹ And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if¹¹ a man do, he shall even live in them.Ezekiel 20:11
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
------------------------------
⁵ For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. ⁶ But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above ) ⁷ Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) ⁸ But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; ⁹ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ¹⁰ For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ¹¹ For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. ¹² For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. ¹³ For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.Romans 10:5-13
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
================================================================================
As we can see, the Law of the Old Testament was still given for the salvation of the Jews, but they simply did not fulfill it in its entirety.
------------------------------------------------------------------
¹⁰ For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point¹⁰ , he is guilty of all.James 2:10
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
=================================================
That is why we have been given the New Testament, the Perfect Law.
----------------------
⁶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. ⁷ For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. ⁸ For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ⁹ Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. ¹⁰ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: ¹¹ And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. ¹² For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. ¹³ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.Hebrews 8:6-13
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.

 

[AustinC]

====================================================================
¹¹ And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if¹¹ a man do, he shall even live in them.Ezekiel 20:11
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
------------------------------
⁵ For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. ⁶ But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above ) ⁷ Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) ⁸ But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; ⁹ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ¹⁰ For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ¹¹ For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. ¹² For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. ¹³ For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.Romans 10:5-13
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
================================================================================
As we can see, the Law of the Old Testament was still given for the salvation of the Jews, but they simply did not fulfill it in its entirety.
------------------------------------------------------------------
¹⁰ For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point¹⁰ , he is guilty of all.James 2:10
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
=================================================
That is why we have been given the New Testament, the Perfect Law.
----------------------
⁶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. ⁷ For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. ⁸ For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ⁹ Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. ¹⁰ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: ¹¹ And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. ¹² For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. ¹³ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.Hebrews 8:6-13
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.

Strannik, in your post you show that you do not understand the covenants. The covenant with Moses would never give salvation to Israel. Jesus tells us you cannot be saved through the law. The law is only valuable to keep you from sin, not pay your debt when you break the law. There was no salvation in the law, only condemnation for breaking the law. This is why Jesus tells us in the Sermon on the Mount that our righteousness would have to be even greater than the scribes and Pharisees. His point is that no one is saved by keeping the law. Everyone breaks the law.
It was through the Abrahamic covenant that salvation would come, as promised. This covenant came before the law and acts as an umbrella above the law. From this covenant we get the New Covenant which continues the promise and writes the law on our hearts through faith in Christ Jesus.

Sadly, you are stuck under the law, not knowing that in the Mosaic Covenant there is no pathway to salvation, only the curse of judgment for failure to follow the law. Many Christians place this stumbling block into their lives and follow the same anathema that the Galatians were following. The Galatians had been saved by grace, but thought they then had to follow the Mosaic Law to maintain their salvation. Too many Christians fall into that same lie and miss the truth that they are sustained by the same grace that saved them. They are now found in Christ, who fulfilled the entire law at the cross. "There is now no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Strannik, stop trying to be saved by the law.

 

[Strannik]

Strannik, in your post you show that you do not understand the covenants. The covenant with Moses would never give salvation to Israel. Jesus tells us you cannot be saved through the law. The law is only valuable to keep you from sin, not pay your debt when you break the law. There was no salvation in the law, only condemnation for breaking the law. This is why Jesus tells us in the Sermon on the Mount that our righteousness would have to be even greater than the scribes and Pharisees. His point is that no one is saved by keeping the law. Everyone breaks the law.
It was through the Abrahamic covenant that salvation would come, as promised. This covenant came before the law and acts as an umbrella above the law. From this covenant we get the New Covenant which continues the promise and writes the law on our hearts through faith in Christ Jesus.

Sadly, you are stuck under the law, not knowing that in the Mosaic Covenant there is no pathway to salvation, only the curse of judgment for failure to follow the law. Many Christians place this stumbling block into their lives and follow the same anathema that the Galatians were following. The Galatians had been saved by grace, but thought they then had to follow the Mosaic Law to maintain their salvation. Too many Christians fall into that same lie and miss the truth that they are sustained by the same grace that saved them. They are now found in Christ, who fulfilled the entire law at the cross. "There is now no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Strannik, stop trying to be saved by the law.

And I did not say what he brought, but I showed you with words from the Scriptures that the Jews were saved (action to the intended goal) by the fulfillment of the Law of the Old Testament, but they could not be saved, because they could not fulfill it completely, and therefore God gave us His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in Him could be saved. I do not know, but it may be due to some language features, but you do not seem to be able to understand that the word "saved", it does not mean that everyone was saved. This also means that they attempted to escape through the execution of certain actions, but to the planned result never came, but was saved by the Grace of God:
-----------------------------
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, received not the promise,
40 for God has provided something better for us, that they may not be perfect without us.
(Heb. 11: 39,40)

 

[Strannik]

Strannik, in your post you show that you do not understand the covenants. The covenant with Moses would never give salvation to Israel. Jesus tells us you cannot be saved through the law. The law is only valuable to keep you from sin, not pay your debt when you break the law. There was no salvation in the law, only condemnation for breaking the law. This is why Jesus tells us in the Sermon on the Mount that our righteousness would have to be even greater than the scribes and Pharisees. His point is that no one is saved by keeping the law. Everyone breaks the law.
It was through the Abrahamic covenant that salvation would come, as promised. This covenant came before the law and acts as an umbrella above the law. From this covenant we get the New Covenant which continues the promise and writes the law on our hearts through faith in Christ Jesus.

Sadly, you are stuck under the law, not knowing that in the Mosaic Covenant there is no pathway to salvation, only the curse of judgment for failure to follow the law. Many Christians place this stumbling block into their lives and follow the same anathema that the Galatians were following. The Galatians had been saved by grace, but thought they then had to follow the Mosaic Law to maintain their salvation. Too many Christians fall into that same lie and miss the truth that they are sustained by the same grace that saved them. They are now found in Christ, who fulfilled the entire law at the cross. "There is now no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Strannik, stop trying to be saved by the law.

25 But he who understands the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides in it, being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be blessed in his work.
(James 1: 25)

 

[AustinC]

And I did not say what he brought, but I showed you with words from the Scriptures that the Jews were saved (action to the intended goal) by the fulfillment of the Law of the Old Testament, but they could not be saved, because they could not fulfill it completely, and therefore God gave us His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in Him could be saved. I do not know, but it may be due to some language features, but you do not seem to be able to understand that the word "saved", it does not mean that everyone was saved. This also means that they attempted to escape through the execution of certain actions, but to the planned result never came, but was saved by the Grace of God:
-----------------------------
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, received not the promise,
40 for God has provided something better for us, that they may not be perfect without us.
(Heb. 11: 39,40)

There may be a language gap. You don't seem to recognize God's covenants. In your post above you merely call it the "Old Testament" rather than recognize the specific covenants God made with Abraham, Moses and David. These covenants explain the work of Jesus in the gospels.

As to salvation, the Bible is clear. We "are saved by grace, through faith, which is not of ourselves, but is the gift of God so that no one can boast."
From Adam onward, salvation has always been by grace alone, through the gift of faith alone. God has always saved his elect by that means. It is very clear you do not understand this truth, but instead you view God's means of salvation as being different at different times. That position is a very new theology that the church never held until person's who didn't grasp the covenants of God chopped up the Bible into imaginary dispensations.

 

[AustinC]

25 But he who understands the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides in it, being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be blessed in his work.
(James 1: 25)

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings. Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, and the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits. Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing. If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
~ James 1:1-27

 

[Strannik]

There may be a language gap. You don't seem to recognize God's covenants. In your post above you merely call it the "Old Testament" rather than recognize the specific covenants God made with Abraham, Moses and David. These covenants explain the work of Jesus in the gospels.

As to salvation, the Bible is clear. We "are saved by grace, through faith, which is not of ourselves, but is the gift of God so that no one can boast."
From Adam onward, salvation has always been by grace alone, through the gift of faith alone. God has always saved his elect by that means. It is very clear you do not understand this truth, but instead you view God's means of salvation as being different at different times. That position is a very new theology that the church never held until person's who didn't grasp the covenants of God chopped up the Bible into imaginary dispensations.

Well, in general, we understand that God had covenants with Adam and Abraham, Moses and David, but since they were before Christ's Covenant, they naturally relate to the Old Testament to one degree or another. Although we mostly understand that the Old Testament is called the Law/ Covenant of Moses. You need to remember what the Scripture says about the New Testament, because the words about the New Testament are not my words, but the words of the Holy Scriptures, and the fact is that the Church believed in what I write about for all 2000 years.

About salvation by grace. So the point is that God saved by grace, but at the same time He gave the Law as a measure of our sinfulness, and everyone who corresponds to the standard of the Law is considered saved, but since there are no people who have fulfilled the WHOLE Law, then the saved of the Old Testament are saved by the grace of God, and not just because He just made them "condemned" to righteousness. People are still given something that the angels can not understand, namely the freedom of choice. Free will. Only often the choice and will of people are subjected to enslavement by all sorts of addictions and passions.
You just need to understand that if people have no freedom of choice at all, then all God's calls for choosing Him as their Lord and entering the Church are just farce and hypocrisy.

 

[George Antonios]

It is argued by some, that, if God were to “will, desire, or wish” for something, then this will always happen. And, if it does not, then somehow it is seen as a “failure” on God’s part.

Using this line of argument, verses like 1 Timothy 3-4, and 2 Peter 3:9, which speaks of the “will, desire”, of God, in the salvation of the lost, it is assumed that because God so “desires or wills” “every human being”, to be “saved”, then they “must” be. But, as we know that “every human being”, will not be saved, then God’s “will or desire”, has been “wasted” or a “failure”. This is used to “prove” that God’s “desire/will” cannot mean for “every human being”, and therefore must be taken to mean “the elect”.

“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

θέλω , “to will, be willing, wish, desire”

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,a]"> not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Peter 3:9)

βαύλομαι, “to will, wish, desire, purpose, be minded, implying more strongly than θέλω”

Then we have passages like that in Ezekiel;

“Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? ...For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.” (Ezekiel 18:32)

חפץ, “to will, to desire”

In the context it is very clear, that God is speaking about wicked, sinful people, who reject His Ways and Laws. Yet God says of these people, that He does not “will/desire” their eternal death, but, rather that they should “turn” (repent) and live eternally! Now, just because many of these people would still have rejected the Ways of the Lord, and not “turned” to Him in repentance, does this mean that somehow God has failed?

Paul in writing to the Thessalonians, urged them to live holy lives, and to abstain from all sexual immorality. Paul says to them, that this is the “will of God”.

“For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3)

Θέλημα, “that which is willed”

πορνεία, “of illicit sexual intercourse in general”`

This command is for all believers. Likewise Peter says in his Letter, that God Commands all believers to be “holy”, because He is “Holy”. It is not just a suggestion, but tells of the Command from God Himself.

“but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“you shall be holy”, having the force of the imperative

There is no doubt that it is the strong “desire/wish/will” of God, that His children are to live godly lives. Yet, we see from Paul’s Letter to the Corinthians, where he speaks of “carnal Christians”, some who were also guilty of incest, etc. We live in a very fallen and evil world, where many Christians, even leaders, are not living godly lives, and some have also “fallen away” from the Faith, because of their sinful lives. It is no doubt as seen from the entire Teaching in the Holy Bible, that it is very much the “desire/wish/will”, of God, that every single human being, did not sin, as God cannot “desire/wish/will”, the opposite! Are we to conclude from this, that, since it is very clear, that Christians do not “abstain from sexual immorality”, which must also include sinful thoughts, and do not live lives that are “holy” are pleasing to God, that somehow because God so “willed” this, and it is not the case, that He has “failed”? Absolutely NOT!

The fact that God DOES “desire/wish/will”, that every single human being were to “repent and believe in the Gospel”, about the Lord Jesus Christ. Does NOT mean, that ALL have to do so, and if they did not, then it is God Who has “failed”! Likewise, when the Bible says that Jesus even shed His Blood for the likes of Judas, which is very clear from Luke 22:20-23, that if these were not saved, because they “would not come to Jesus “(John 5:39-40), that somehow the Blood of Jesus has been “wasted”. This is ABSURD! It is evident from the Teaching of the Bible, that God “desiring” certain things does not mean that they are “definite”.

All the putzing around in Hebrew and Greek takes away from the good arguments you made.
I'm not saying it's always wrong, but I saw no added benefit here.
Good job though.

 

[George Antonios]

I once had the same blinders as you have. It took about 25 years before God graciously removed the scales from my eyes. May God break down your stubborn heart.

Ah yes, the oozing sanctimoniousness. Classic that.