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The Willful Sin of Unbelief

MrW

Well-Known Member
Apparently you, like 99% of evangelicals, Calvinist or Free Willer, misapply the eternal sense to saved and lost, AND, like 99% of evangelicals, Calvinist or Free Willer, the lesson(s) to be learned in these magnificent types contained in the Exodus Motif.



You make some good points, but miss some huge, important lessons into the faithfulness of God and the eternal security of His people when you depart from the Exodus storyline when reading Hebrews.

House of bondage = ?

Passover lamb = ?

Wilderness = ?

Land of milk & honey = ?

The Exodus Motif is pregnant with types, these are just a few.

I believe in Eternal Security.

God alone dispenses salvation. It would be an exercise in futility for God to grant the New Testament new birth to one He foreknows will die lost.

To me, to argue a person can be re-lost is vain. The question is, “Are you absolutely certain of your salvation?”, and if you are, then please live like it.

(Not addressing you personally, but making a comment on Eternal Security and any and all who profess it, including me, for surely I give myself too much trouble).
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Paul was addressing about saved believers that fell away, but returned to the faith in Jesus Christ or return to following Him by faith in Him being our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.

Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

This is Paul citing what every believer that was a Jew, went through at the day of their salvation. Note the call to go on to perfection after what they had all gone through from that day? That is what Paul is addressing next in regards to those that fell away but return that it is unnecessary for anyone that return, to go through all that in the beginning as explained below, thus the call to just move on to perfection.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So verse 8 is the consequence for those that did not return and when you compare that with 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, you may see with His help how those left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event that die, but their spirits are still saved. It is the woks on that foundation that gets burned off of that foundation as that foundation remains as the weeds & briars are burned off of that earth, but the earth remains for why salvation is still assured for those left behind even though they were not ready as found abiding in Him & His words but were engaging in works of iniquity for why they are denied by Him & left behind.

Anyway, in context, Paul is explaining those that fell away that return, have no need to go through all of that in verses 1 & 2, but just to go on to perfection with His help.

Paul illustrates this moving on to perfection further by the running of this race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in Hebrews 12:1-2 as He is with us always to resist sin in thought, word, & deed.

Then He goes on to testify of those who do not look to Jesus to help them resist sin in Hebrews 12:4 as the consequence is getting a scourging from the Father in Hebrews 12:6 so that they may be partakers of His holiness.

How does that relate to Hebrews 6:8? When comparing Luke 12:40-49 to Hebrews 12:6 for when they will get that scourging from the Father by those stripes in Luke 12:47-48 and that is when they get cut off to be with the unbelievers left behind in Luke 12:46 and how Jesus sends that fire on earth too in Luke 12:49 thus the burning in more ways than one in the fire that comes on earth will kill them, but it will burn off of that foundation all that offends as they shall receive stripes so that they will not commit that sin again when they are raised up after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in Hos House, the vessels of wood and earth ( 2 Tmothy 2:19-21 for not departing from iniquity ) that shall serve the King of kings on earth.

Even former believers that would verbally deny Him, He will deny them 2 Timothy 2:11-12 , BUT even though left behind ( unless they repent before He comes as the Bridegroom ) He is faithful for He still abides 2 Timothy 2:13.

And so that is why no former believer needs to go through all that in Hebrews 6:1-2 wen they return to the faith, but just move on to perfection by faith in Jesus Christ to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily to be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.
It was two sets of people in the congregation, thats why the but contrast Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Again in Heb 10:38-39

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

See that ? Its WE and Them, two different hearers.
 
The issue is whether that rejected resulted in Paul being unable to subsequently fully embrace the gospel. And the answer is no, people are able to come to their senses or rededicate their lives.

Rededicate their lives?

You are not referring to that apostate calling of Billy Graham in making a commitment to follow Christ as if keeping it, one can gain the assurance of salvation rather than by faith in Jesus Christ is how we are saved?

Or any other subsequent man made bondages of vanity like the Promise Keepers' program where men make promises to God and men to make themselves better fathers, husbands, and members of their community as if keeping it by the deeds of the law is the power in living the Christian life rather than by faith in Jesus Christ in how He is our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him? Galatians 5:1-5 & Philippians 1:6-11 & Matthew 5:33-37 & John 6:28-29
 
It was two sets of people in the congregation, thats why the but contrast Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Again in Heb 10:38-39

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

See that ? Its WE and Them, two different hearers.

The But in Hebrews 6:9 was in regards to the consequence for those that have fallen away in verse 8.

Hebrews 10:38-39 is to be applied to those that err, thinking they need another sacrifice for sins which was rebuked in Hebrews 10:1-31. Imagine, if you will, the Catholic as they look forward to the Mass each weekend to receive another atonement for sins committed since last Mass... what happens when the Bridegroom comes before that next Mass? They will draw back unto perdition because their hope was on the Mass and not on Jesus Christ.

So Paul in verse 39 is addressing those believers that were not led astray by such an errant offensive line of "communion" since their hope is on Christ for why abiding believers will not draw back.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He rejected the Gospel, Jesus saved him nevertheless
Never in dispute. What you ignore was Paul's decision to embrace the gospel of Christ. Take note of Acts of the Apostles 22:16 where Paul "called on His name!"
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Rededicate their lives?

You are not referring to that apostate calling of Billy Graham in making a commitment to follow Christ as if keeping it, one can gain the assurance of salvation rather than by faith in Jesus Christ is how we are saved?

Or any other subsequent man made bondages of vanity like the Promise Keepers' program where men make promises to God and men to make themselves better fathers, husbands, and members of their community as if keeping it by the deeds of the law is the power in living the Christian life rather than by faith in Jesus Christ in how He is our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him? Galatians 5:1-5 & Philippians 1:6-11 & Matthew 5:33-37 & John 6:28-29

1) Please stop suggesting I am endorsing the heresy of the month.

2) If a person receives the gospel partially, such as Soils # 2 and 3 of Matthew 13, they may in the future rededicate their lives to Christ, fully committing by forming a deep root of commitment in themselves or tossing out the priority of other earthly treasures and making Christ the overriding priority of their life.

3) I am discussing what scripture teaches, not whatever outreach you find fault with.

4) Progressive sanctification has born anew believers striving to think and act more like Christ and to become more effective witnesses for Christ. You seem to dismiss this as striving to obtain or sustain Positional sanctification. Nonsense.
 
1) Please stop suggesting I am endorsing the heresy of the month.

You posted that but then you posted this.

"2) If a person receives the gospel partially, such as Soils # 2 and 3 of Matthew 13, they may in the future rededicate their lives to Christ, fully committing by forming a deep root of commitment in themselves or tossing out the priority of other earthly treasures and making Christ the overriding priority of their life." ~~ end of quote

No matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak therefore any believer looking to themselves in doing the best they can in following Christ will be using the grace of God in living a life of sin by continually breaking that commitment every time they sin. They give grace to themselves to keep trying to keep that commitment or promise, and yet I have seen the same condemn others as if they are not truly believers or they were never saved in the first place when they had fallen away.

Then it adds sin to that self witness by the believer testifying of their commitment or promise is by keeping is how they are able to follow Jesus which is a false witness. John 5:31 & John 7:18

Then you posted this

"3) I am discussing what scripture teaches, not whatever outreach you find fault with." ~~ end of quote

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.... 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:..... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

it is living by faith in Jesus Christ or it is by doing the best you can striving to keep that commitment as if that is the power for us to follow Him by.

How can you apply Galatians 5:1 to your testimony or to your walk with Jesus Christ when any believer's commitment to Christ is a promise to Christ and it is you telling God and men that you are going to do it by the deed of that law and yet we can do nothing without Him?

Then you posted this

"4) Progressive sanctification has born anew believers striving to think and act more like Christ and to become more effective witnesses for Christ. You seem to dismiss this as striving to obtain or sustain Positional sanctification. Nonsense." ~~ end of quote

Where is that rest in Jesus Christ for how we are to follow Him by faith in Him alone?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

How can any striving of the believer be seen as resting in Jesus Christ?

The only striving the believer is to do is to avoid following the crowd that broadens the way in coming to God the Father by including the holy Spirit or the blessed trinity" as if that is another way we can approach God the father by when God has provided only one way to come to him and that is by His Son.

By continuing to go to the Son for all things, in fellowship, prayer, and worship, we are coming to God the Father. The striving is explaining the necessity and the urgency of narrowing the way back to the straight gate to avoid that work of iniquity of following the crowd or the church in coming to God the Father by another way like the Holy Spirit or even by the broad way like by way of the blessed Trinity.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....

....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That is the only striving I see is how we are to approach God the Father by in these latter days where the way has been broadened but by continuously going to the Son in coming to God the Father, is how we can rest in Him for all things including how Jesus Christ is the power we have for following Him because He is our Good Shepherd and not just our Saviour.

Puts a whole new meaning to "the just shall live by faith.....:".
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You posted that but then you posted this.

"2) If a person receives the gospel partially, such as Soils # 2 and 3 of Matthew 13, they may in the future rededicate their lives to Christ, fully committing by forming a deep root of commitment in themselves or tossing out the priority of other earthly treasures and making Christ the overriding priority of their life." ~~ end of quote

No matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak therefore any believer looking to themselves in doing the best they can in following Christ will be using the grace of God in living a life of sin by continually breaking that commitment every time they sin.
SNIP
.

Notice these rejections of Matthew 13 and the need for progressive sanctification. We are to confess our sins and strive to do better, not using grace to justify continued sin.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Where is that rest in Jesus Christ for how we are to follow Him by faith in Him alone?
It seems some do not accept the premise of progressive sanctification. Is this a sneaky defense of "Easy Believism?"
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Folks, our progressive sanctification refers to growing from a new born believer to a mature Christian.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
The But in Hebrews 6:9 was in regards to the consequence for those that have fallen away in verse 8.

Hebrews 10:38-39 is to be applied to those that err, thinking they need another sacrifice for sins which was rebuked in Hebrews 10:1-31. Imagine, if you will, the Catholic as they look forward to the Mass each weekend to receive another atonement for sins committed since last Mass... what happens when the Bridegroom comes before that next Mass? They will draw back unto perdition because their hope was on the Mass and not on Jesus Christ.

So Paul in verse 39 is addressing those believers that were not led astray by such an errant offensive line of "communion" since their hope is on Christ for why abiding believers will not draw back.
The but is because some actually had salvation and some didn't
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Never in dispute. What you ignore was Paul's decision to embrace the gospel of Christ. Take note of Acts of the Apostles 22:16 where Paul "called on His name!"
It was Gods will that Paul became a believer, Jesus had to save Him from sinful unbelief,then give him faith to believe
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Behold a denial that Paul called on the name of the Lord.
He did after God gave him repentance. Repentance is a change of mind, Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

No one calls upon the Name of the Lord until they are saved with the Gift of repentance from the Lord.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He did after God gave him repentance. Repentance is a change of mind, Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

No one calls upon the Name of the Lord until they are saved with the Gift of repentance from the Lord.

I am sorry but you are claiming "gave repentance" means enabling and compelling repentance. Shear nonsense.

To grant repentance means to allow or permit repentance. It refers to the absence of having a hardened heart caused by God.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
I am sorry but you are claiming "gave repentance" means enabling and compelling repentance. Shear nonsense.

To grant repentance means to allow or permit repentance. It refers to the absence of having a hardened heart caused by God.
Oh no,giving repentance is the giving of the entire conversion experience, it comes with faith and new spiritual life as well.

Christ causes it all Acts 3:26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oh no,giving repentance is the giving of the entire conversion experience, it comes with faith and new spiritual life as well.

Christ causes it all Acts 3:26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
LOL, how are sinners heading in the wrong direction turned to God? Through the Good News of the Gospel. Not through the fiction of Irresistible grace

The unforgivable sin is rejection of the gospel.

Once a person is sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, that union is forever according to scripture. Yes we can "quench" the Spirit, close down its influence on us, but we will never "force it out."

When and if we diligently follow the Helper's leading, we will engage in effective ministry, earn rewards and enter heaven "abundantly!"


 
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