The Work of the Holy Spirit

[DHK]

If anyone looked back they would see more of the same from you as you are posting in this post! Very little scripture is ever discussed between us!

Just because someone does not go along with your interpretation of scripture...you retort to belittling! You can stay in your unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit..the Baptism in the Holy Spirit...etc.!
You do not have to believe as I do! You are not going to change what I know to be true in my life...I will continue to walk out what He said!

So we just do not agree! As someone said in another post! We will find out who is right one day!

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Even the gift of being able to govern or administration, and the gift of helping others is more important than tongues. How can you say that tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit when gifts such as helps and government are more important than tongues? You have everything backwards.

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Even the gift of being able to govern or administration, and the gift of helping others is more important than tongues. How can you say that tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit when gifts such as helps and government are more important than tongues? You have everything backwards.

Maybe that is why there is such "charasmatic chaos" today, as they seek to exault the least gift, tongues, and signs and wonders, which they cannot even prove, and neglect practicle gifts that go operate and function today like giving, service/teaching/leading etc!

ONE Gift sorely lacking is that of discernment!

 

[awaken]

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Even the gift of being able to govern or administration, and the gift of helping others is more important than tongues. How can you say that tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit when gifts such as helps and government are more important than tongues? You have everything backwards.

Paul says that we should not say that one is more important than others. We should not say one to another you/gift is not important..we are all important to the body! You accuse me of what you are saying in this post!
I do not say someone that speaks in tongues is more important than anyone else...that is a false accusation!

 

[awaken]

Maybe that is why there is such "charasmatic chaos" today, as they seek to exault the least gift, tongues, and signs and wonders, which they cannot even prove, and neglect practicle gifts that go operate and function today like giving, service/teaching/leading etc!

ONE Gift sorely lacking is that of discernment!

Maybe...this is the one doctrine that is attacked more than any other!

 

[Yeshua1]

Maybe...this is the one doctrine that is attacked more than any other!

This is WHY the HS not involved in much of the Charasmatic chaos, for he would have given discernment to avoid the errors/mistakes/heresies found there!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Maybe...this is the one doctrine that is attacked more than any other!

And the reason it is "attacked" is because Charismatics make it the most important gift, placing it at the top of the heap and making it central to their beliefs. This is against scripture.

 

[awaken]

And the reason it is "attacked" is because Charismatics make it the most important gift, placing it at the top of the heap and making it central to their beliefs. This is against scripture.

I do not put tongues on top of the list! I do discuss it alot...because I am defending a truth in the Bible!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I do not put tongues on top of the list! I do discuss it alot...because I am defending a truth in the Bible!

Pentecostals and most Charismatics believe that if you have not spoken in tongues then you have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is false doctrine and against scripture. It is making tongues the be-all and end-all of everything. Tongues is the marker of whether or not you belong to the tribe and have spiritually arrived. This is the height of arrogance and elitism.

 

[DHK]

Paul says that we should not say that one is more important than others. We should not say one to another you/gift is not important..we are all important to the body! You accuse me of what you are saying in this post!
I do not say someone that speaks in tongues is more important than anyone else...that is a false accusation!

If you are referring to a Scripture then you can be sure it is taken out of context, because Paul listed the gifts in order of importance.

You didn't notice that in the verse I quoted to you??

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

These adverbs: first, secondarily, thirdly, after that, and then, put all the gifts in order of importance. The least important of all the gifts is at the end of the list, "tongues." Paul considered it the least important, but Charismatics consider the most important, contrary to Biblical teaching.

Consider the following verses:
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Rhetorical questions, all having the same answer.
Do all speak in tongues. An absolute NO!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

If you are referring to a Scripture then you can be sure it is taken out of context, because Paul listed the gifts in order of importance.

You didn't notice that in the verse I quoted to you??

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

These adverbs: first, secondarily, thirdly, after that, and then, put all the gifts in order of importance. The least important of all the gifts is at the end of the list, "tongues." Paul considered it the least important, but Charismatics consider the most important, contrary to Biblical teaching.

Consider the following verses:
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Rhetorical questions, all having the same answer.
Do all speak in tongues. An absolute NO!!!!!!!!!!

But, see, what you, I, and every "non-charismatic" apparently doesn't understand is that Paul's teachings only applied up until the year 1900, and then Parham and Seymour had new revelations that changed all that, and now every believer has to wait and seek the HS baptism after they are converted, and when and if they do finally receive this baptism, they will all speak in tongues as evidence of it. But those poor deceived souls who don't hold to such tripe will never experience "the baptism", or speak in a "heavenly language", or know the power of God in their lives, all because of their "unbelief".

 

[awaken]

If you are referring to a Scripture then you can be sure it is taken out of context, because Paul listed the gifts in order of importance.

You didn't notice that in the verse I quoted to you??

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

These adverbs: first, secondarily, thirdly, after that, and then, put all the gifts in order of importance. The least important of all the gifts is at the end of the list, "tongues." Paul considered it the least important, but Charismatics consider the most important, contrary to Biblical teaching.

Consider the following verses:
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Rhetorical questions, all having the same answer.
Do all speak in tongues. An absolute NO!!!!!!!!!!

That is speaking of ministry gifts...not all are called to tongues and interpretation in the assembly. I am not!

Funny that all spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost! All spoke in tongeus in Acts 10 and 19... I did not see some manifest tongues and others not!

 

[awaken]

Pentecostals and most Charismatics believe that if you have not spoken in tongues then you have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is false doctrine and against scripture. It is making tongues the be-all and end-all of everything. Tongues is the marker of whether or not you belong to the tribe and have spiritually arrived. This is the height of arrogance and elitism.

All examples of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit...tongues was a manifestation! I am not speaking of the filling...that happens more than once!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

All examples of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit...tongues was a manifestation! I am not speaking of the filling...that happens more than once!

That is a lie. You are quite good at that. Maybe that's one of your "gifts".

 

[awaken]

That is a lie. You are quite good at that. Maybe that's one of your "gifts".

Instead of calling me a liar...prove me wrong! Show me one verse where they were baptized..not filled...in the Holy Spirit and did not speak in tongues?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

That is a lie. You are quite good at that. Maybe that's one of your "gifts".

Instead of calling me a liar...prove me wrong! Show me one verse where they were baptized..not filled...in the Holy Spirit and did not speak in tongues?

Acts 8:14-17.

And you have already been shown that the other two times where the spirit was delayed and tongues were spoken were special, one-time, unrepeatable circumstances.

These were the only times when the baptism of the spirit was delayed, and in only two of these times were tongues manifested.

So, instead of proving your views, these scriptures refute them! In all other cases, then and now, when a person first believes, he/she is baptized by the Holy Spirit, and no tongues are involved as evidence of it. No person has to seek such baptism later on after conversion, and no one has to seek tongues. If God wants to bestow this gift, He will. And the scriptures also prove there is no private prayer language, except for the one who has the GIFT of tongues and uses this in private.

That is the scriptural teaching, taken in context. Charismatics like you are in unbelief about what the scripture actually teaches. You have to ignore what they really teach and mangle them to try and find support for your ungodly views and practices.

You should repent of your error before you are led into serious harm.

 

[awaken]

Acts 8:14-17.

"But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. ... When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:12-17)

Peter and John were not sent to Samaria until the apostles heard that the Samaritans had received salvation by believing the Gospel message which Philip had preached. When Peter and John arrived, they laid hands on the Samaritans and then the Holy Spirit came on the Samaritans. Therefore, some amount of time passed between the moment the Samaritans were saved and the moment they "received" the Holy Spirit. This brings up an interesting question. Most Christian denominations teach that everyone automatically receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation, so why does it appear as if the Samaritans did not automatically receive the Holy Spirit when they received salvation? There is a very simple answer to this question, and this answer is clear as we gain a better understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This passage says that the Holy Spirit had not yet "come upon" any of the Samaritans. Notice that this is the same wording which is used to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit in all of the examples.

These examples provide further confirmation that the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not refer to being sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Instead, it refers to a separate event after salvation which is for empowering a Christian to function supernaturally in the body of Christ.

And you have already been shown that the other two times where the spirit was delayed and tongues were spoken were special, one-time, unrepeatable circumstances.

I was shown your interpretation of those scriptures that contradict other scriptures concerning this! I do believe that salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit can happen at the same time! But scriptures also show they are separate! Salvation only happens once in a persons life and so does the baptism! Being filled happens more than once!

These were the only times when the baptism of the spirit was delayed, and in only two of these times were tongues manifested.

You also left out Acts 19 where the Spirit came UPON them!

So, instead of proving your views, these scriptures refute them! In all other cases, then and now, when a person first believes, he/she is baptized by the Holy Spirit, and no tongues are involved as evidence of it. No person has to seek such baptism later on after conversion, and no one has to seek tongues. If God wants to bestow this gift, He will. And the scriptures also prove there is no private prayer language, except for the one who has the GIFT of tongues and uses this in private.

You also have yet to prove what they were doing in Acts when they were speaking in tongues. It never mentions Paul receiving tongues...but we know he did!

That is the scriptural teaching, taken in context. Charismatics like you are in unbelief about what the scripture actually teaches. You have to ignore what they really teach and mangle them to try and find support for your ungodly views and practices.

You should repent of your error before you are led into serious harm.

I appreciate your genuine concern for my well being! But that said...

Those scripture do not refute but prove what I believe! So you ignore scripture presented to you! 1 Cor. is plain that speaking in tongues is speaking to God/praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit...you ignore all of this to prove your theory!
So again...we just do not agee on the Holy Spirit upon and Holy Spirit within! I believe it can happen at once...but it also happens separate as scriptures show!

 

[awaken]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Upon) is a separate event from salvation (indwelling), Its purpose is to empower a person who is already saved.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to us after we have received salvation.

They can happen at the same time...but scriptures also show it happening separate!

 

[DHK]

That is speaking of ministry gifts...not all are called to tongues and interpretation in the assembly. I am not!

Funny that all spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost! All spoke in tongeus in Acts 10 and 19... I did not see some manifest tongues and others not!

First all did not speak in tongues. Only the apostles did.
There were 120 in total. Not all 120 were from Galilee. They were in Jerusalem. Jerusalem was in the southern part of Israel, but Galilee was in the northern part, quite a distance away from Jerusalem. That is why they could identify them as Galileans so quickly. They were a rough bunch of fisherman for the most part with a different accent.
From near Jerusalem were Mary, Martha, Lazarus, also Mary the mother of Jesus, all the brothers of Jesus including James and Jude, (James was very prominent), and quite a few others.
They were certainly not all from Galilee. But the ones that spoke were from Galilee. They were identified as "Galileans." They were the Apostles.

The antecedent is the event immediately preceding--the choosing of the 12th apostle, an event that involved primarily the 12 apostles. It was they that spoke.

God is a God of order and not of chaos. It would have been chaos for all 120 to be speaking at the same time. It is more probable that the 12 were speaking turn by turn in different languages so that all could understand their own language as it was spoken. The miracle was not in the hearing, but in the actual language being spoken. But you adhere to a confusion of babble, gibberish, so you don't see this.

Besides all of this, Pentecost is over. It will never be repeated again. It was a one time event. It cannot be used as an evidence for the use of tongues today.

The use for tongues today is in the local church. That is why Paul gives instruction for the use of tongues some 25 years later after this event took place. Things had changed. Pentecost could not be duplicated over and over again. The gift of languages had a different purpose and Paul explains what the purpose is. It had many more restrictions. It was a gift given to the church, not to be used outside of the church. It was the least of all the gifts. It was a gift that was to edify other believers not selfishly for oneself.

 

[awaken]

First all did not speak in tongues. Only the apostles did.
There were 120 in total. Not all 120 were from Galilee. They were in Jerusalem. Jerusalem was in the southern part of Israel, but Galilee was in the northern part, quite a distance away from Jerusalem. That is why they could identify them as Galileans so quickly. They were a rough bunch of fisherman for the most part with a different accent.
From near Jerusalem were Mary, Martha, Lazarus, also Mary the mother of Jesus, all the brothers of Jesus including James and Jude, (James was very prominent), and quite a few others.
They were certainly not all from Galilee. But the ones that spoke were from Galilee. They were identified as "Galileans." They were the Apostles.

The antecedent is the event immediately preceding--the choosing of the 12th apostle, an event that involved primarily the 12 apostles. It was they that spoke.

God is a God of order and not of chaos. It would have been chaos for all 120 to be speaking at the same time. It is more probable that the 12 were speaking turn by turn in different languages so that all could understand their own language as it was spoken. The miracle was not in the hearing, but in the actual language being spoken. But you adhere to a confusion of babble, gibberish, so you don't see this.

This is all assumption that can not be proven by scriptures! More than just the apostles spoke in tongues in the Bible! Why would they be left out here?

Besides all of this, Pentecost is over. It will never be repeated again. It was a one time event. It cannot be used as an evidence for the use of tongues today.

So is the cross! Never to be repeated again! But the promise is for all that believe! We can still be saved today! We can still be empowered by the Holy Spirit today!

The use for tongues today is in the local church. That is why Paul gives instruction for the use of tongues some 25 years later after this event took place. Things had changed. Pentecost could not be duplicated over and over again. The gift of languages had a different purpose and Paul explains what the purpose is. It had many more restrictions. It was a gift given to the church, not to be used outside of the church. It was the least of all the gifts. It was a gift that was to edify other believers not selfishly for oneself.

How many times does common sense have to be explained to you?
Can people be healed outside the church? Can a word of knowledge or wisdom be given outside the church? Can faith be operated outside the church? Were miracles done outside the church? Can someone prophesy outside the church? Can someone pray in the spirit outside the church? YES!!!!

 

[DHK]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Upon) is a separate event from salvation (indwelling), Its purpose is to empower a person who is already saved.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to us after we have received salvation.

They can happen at the same time...but scriptures also show it happening separate!

The it seems to be quite a useless experience. What is the point of it.
Is there a command to be baptized of the Holy Spirit.
There is a command to filled of the Holy Spirit (Eph.5:18), and it does bear fruit, more fruit then you will ever see in your life.

At the beginning of chapter three Peter, being filled with the Holy Spirit, healed a lame man who had been lame from his mother's birth.
The result:
Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Five thousand were saved. That is two thousand more than on the day of Pentecost!

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
--Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit and that gave him power to speak the Word of God before the Sanhedrin, the very ones that had orchestrated the crucifixion of Christ.

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
--The disciples prayed, the miraculous took place (an earthquake); and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. The result? It wasn't tongues; but rather they spoke the Word with boldness.

And what about the first martyr, Stephen:
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Being full of the Holy Spirit, he preached again to those that had crucified Christ, and paid for it with his life. He preached with boldness and died with forgiveness.

These are examples of being filled with the Holy Spirit. But you can't find such examples of being baptized with the Holy Spirit, can you.
And as for your lame excuse about ministry, every believer is called to ministry! No person is excepted. Every person is a disciple of Christ. If you think you are excepted then perhaps you are not saved.