The Work of the Holy Spirit

[Yeshua1]

No point! Just shocked! Most here do not believe that! They believe it all connected! They say the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is salvation! That is all! I was just shocked to hear someone else believed this on this board!

Well, we will just agree that they (salvation, baptism in the Holy Spirit) are separate events/experiences in a persons life!

As far as the other it is just what I see in scripture! I do not see the "wording" for baptism in the Holy Spirit more than once in a persons life. I can see why you think it does since you believe the filling and the baptism are the same! But I do not!

John seems to hold though that the "power" we receive from the HS in our lives is when we are infilled by him, NOT baptized in him as you state!

Saved and indwelt are ALl saved, but we also can be empowered by him, that is the infilling, submitting/yielding to his control, NOT tongues nor baptising in Him!

 

[Luke2427]

You theory comes from authors that lean more to tradition than what the Bible really says! NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT AT ALL!

You don't know where I am getting my "theories".

I guess the Holy Ghost told you?

Miracles happen throughout the Bible. I would list them but it would take up a lot of space! These miracles took place outside most traditional theories! They took place outside JUST the giving of the LAW!
They took place outside JUST the giving of the prophets writings!
They took place outside JUST during the forming of the NT!

Very rarely.

No one is saying that NO miracles happen today- at least in the sense of turning back the laws of nature to bring to pass unusual results. This kind of thing happens.

The point is that the Bible shows that miracles are rare. They explode on the scene for a brief period of time and then disappear.'

Miracle WORKERS are EXTREMELY rare in the Bible. By miracles workers we mean people who had the ability to do many miracles over an extended period of time.

Moses, Joshua (and he is very debatable), Samson, Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, the Apostles and the few gifted Christians in the first century and very few others are all you can reference.

This is from a Bible that records about 4,000 years of human history- and there are only a few miracle workers mentioned. What does that tell you, Awaken? I'll tell you what it should tell you: Thinking that miracles should continue is inconsistent with the pattern of miracles revealed throughout the Bible.

The problem with you, Awaken, is that you do not believe the Bible. I know you have convinced yourself you do. I know you think cessationists do not. But, as I am proving to you, the opposite is the case. You cling to unwarrented, unbiblical, charismatic notions over the Word of God much like Pharisees clung to their traditions over the Word of God in Jesus' day.

You need this emotional ecstasy stuff to prop up your faith.

Those strong in the faith; those who have the greater measure of the filling of the Spirit do not need such nonsense.


You have YET to answer this question.

Who is parting seas today?

It is rude for you to just blurt out your favorite talking points and not directly answer my questions. It is rude and revealing.

 

[awaken]

Who is parting seas today?

It is rude for you to just blurt out your favorite talking points and not directly answer my questions. It is rude and revealing.

I did not realize that I did not answer your post! Why do you have to have a repeat of one incident to prove a point? I do not know if there is a need to part the seas today!

 

[Luke2427]

I did not realize that I did not answer your post! Why do you have to have a repeat of one incident to prove a point? I do not know if there is a need to part the seas today!

There is no need for ANYTHING with God.

God did not need to part the sea for Israel. He could have have beamed them over if he wanted.

He could have scooped them up in chariots of fire and flown them over.

He could have dried up the sea altogether... or done it a million other ways.

There is not NEED with God.

God did not NEED tongues in the Apostles' day.

It is not about need.

It is about pattern.

It is about patterns of miracles in the Scripture.

Do you not see that the number of miracle workers in the Bible which covers about 4,000 years of history is phenomenally small?

Do you not see in the Bible that miracles explode on the scene for a generation or two and then fade away for hundreds of years??

How can you not SEE THAT???

Where are visible cloven tongues of fire today??

More importantly, where have they been for the past TWO THOUSAND YEARS??

Can you not see that these things have been gone a long time???

What does that mean to you?

Does that fact lead you to EXPECT miraculous gifts to continue or does it lead you to conclude that they are temporary- that they explode on the scene, serve a particular purpose and then fade away?

C'mon, Awaken. Answer these questions.

Can you not see that this tongues business is just emotional catharsis- an emotional purging that makes people feel good but really has no roots in Scripture??

 

[awaken]

There is no need for ANYTHING with God.

God did not need to part the sea for Israel. He could have have beamed them over if he wanted.

He could have scooped them up in chariots of fire and flown them over.

He could have dried up the sea altogether... or done it a million other ways.

There is not NEED with God.

God did not NEED tongues in the Apostles' day.

It is not about need.

It is about pattern.

It is about patterns of miracles in the Scripture.

Do you not see that the number of miracle workers in the Bible which covers about 4,000 years of history is phenomenally small?

Do you not see in the Bible that miracles explode on the scene for a generation or two and then fade away for hundreds of years??

How can you not SEE THAT???

Where are visible cloven tongues of fire today??

More importantly, where have they been for the past TWO THOUSAND YEARS??

Can you not see that these things have been gone a long time???

What does that mean to you?

Does that fact lead you to EXPECT miraculous gifts to continue or does it lead you to conclude that they are temporary- that they explode on the scene, serve a particular purpose and then fade away?

C'mon, Awaken. Answer these questions.

Can you not see that this tongues business is just emotional catharsis- an emotional purging that makes people feel good but really has no roots in Scripture??

I am sorry you limit God! I do not!
You really think people speak in tongues just to make them feel good?
Who are we to say that God can not move again like he did before?

 

[Luke2427]

I am sorry you limit God! I do not!
You really think people speak in tongues just to make them feel good?
Who are we to say that God can not move again like he did before?

Once again, it is very rude to not address my arguments in a discussion.

You did not address a single argument I gave to support my case, nor did you answer a single question.

Are you here to discuss this or just claim it and expect us to take your word for it???????

 

[DHK]

Once again, it is very rude to not address my arguments in a discussion.

You did not address a single argument I gave to support my case, nor did you answer a single question.

Are you here to discuss this or just claim it and expect us to take your word for it???????

Her answer is a demonstration of how she puts her experience more important than the Word of God. Doctrine is built on experience, for her, instead of the other way around.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Her answer is a demonstration of how she puts her experience more important than the Word of God. Doctrine is built on experience, for her, instead of the other way around.

As with many or most Charismatics.

 

[awaken]

There is no need for ANYTHING with God.

God did not need to part the sea for Israel. He could have have beamed them over if he wanted.

YOu missed my point! WHen I said, "I do not know if there is a need to part the seas today!" That a particulare incident has never come up for him to perform that miracle!

He could have scooped them up in chariots of fire and flown them over.

He could have dried up the sea altogether... or done it a million other ways.

There is not NEED with God.

God did not NEED tongues in the Apostles' day.

It is not about need.

It is about pattern.

It is about patterns of miracles in the Scripture.

Again, you missed the point! But I think that was on purpose! You want to prove your theory of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit ending because some miracles are not repeated! THat does not prove they have ended! It is that simple!

Do you not see that the number of miracle workers in the Bible which covers about 4,000 years of history is phenomenally small?

Do you not realize that God was silent in scripture for how many years between Malachi and Matthew?? There is not a pattern to his miracles...they are spread out over time. Miracles are a recelation of God and His character! Has that changed?

Do you not see in the Bible that miracles explode on the scene for a generation or two and then fade away for hundreds of years??

What does this prove? If that statement proves anything it would prove that miracles are due on the scene again!

How can you not SEE THAT???

I see you making excuses for not believing that miracles are possible today!

Where are visible cloven tongues of fire today??

Did they see them in Acts 10 or 19? NO, so that proves nothing in your side of the debate!

More importantly, where have they been for the past TWO THOUSAND YEARS??

Certainly not in the camp of those that do not believe in them! Jesus did not do miracles in his own home town because of unbelief! Do you realize how much unbelief has been taught over the last two thousand years! We need to repent and get in line with God's word and not man's teaching of unbelief!

Can you not see that these things have been gone a long time???

What does that mean to you?

They are still manifestations of the Holy Spirit in churches today! Just not in yours and others that do not welcome the Holy Spirit to operate in the power he was sent to operate in! I think the Bible calls that denying the power!

Does that fact lead you to EXPECT miraculous gifts to continue or does it lead you to conclude that they are temporary- that they explode on the scene, serve a particular purpose and then fade away?

It leads me to lean more on the Bible than to go back into the unbelief that you are spreading on this board and to those that taught me in the past the same thing!

C'mon, Awaken. Answer these questions.

Can you not see that this tongues business is just emotional catharsis- an emotional purging that makes people feel good but really has no roots in Scripture??

You are soooo wrong about tongues! I answered your questions...so you can quit whinning now...:laugh:

 

[DHK]

YOu missed my point! WHen I said, "I do not know if there is a need to part the seas today!" That a particulare incident has never come up for him to perform that miracle!

He doesn't need to part the seas, speak through a burning bush, have his servant to command the sun to stand still, walk on water, raise the dead, manifest the gift of tongues, the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, or any of the sign miracles.
God is not in need of anything!
He does not need to give you anything.

It leads me to lean more on the Bible than to go back into the unbelief that you are spreading on this board and to those that taught me in the past the same thing!

You are soooo wrong about tongues! I answered your questions...so you can quit whinning now...:laugh:

Since 1905, when the Charismatic movement started unbelief has multiplied. To add the unbelief in this world the Charismatic movement has added confusion and has divided the truth causing schisms of all sorts. It has divided churches, as both John of Japan and I have testified. It is divisive in its nature, and yet at the same time ecumenical. The ecumenical part of the Charismatic movement demonstrates its avoidance of essential doctrine. One can be a Charismatic Mormon, Charismatic SDA, Charismatic Catholic, or like you a "Charismatic Baptist." So what company do you keep? Or is it the Benny Hinn type Charismatics? It is the great ecumenical unifier. Doctrine is not important; experience is. In fact doctrine divides. It is the experience that is important, as you have demonstrated on this board so aptly.

It used to be that the Bible was our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. But now????

 

[awaken]

He doesn't need to part the seas, speak through a burning bush, have his servant to command the sun to stand still, walk on water, raise the dead, manifest the gift of tongues, the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, or any of the sign miracles.
God is not in need of anything!
He does not need to give you anything.

That is the wonderful part of it! He does need or have too! But he does anyway!

Since 1905, when the Charismatic movement started unbelief has multiplied. To add the unbelief in this world the Charismatic movement has added confusion and has divided the truth causing schisms of all sorts. It has divided churches, as both John of Japan and I have testified. It is divisive in its nature, and yet at the same time ecumenical. The ecumenical part of the Charismatic movement demonstrates its avoidance of essential doctrine. One can be a Charismatic Mormon, Charismatic SDA, Charismatic Catholic, or like you a "Charismatic Baptist." So what company do you keep? Or is it the Benny Hinn type Charismatics? It is the great ecumenical unifier. Doctrine is not important; experience is. In fact doctrine divides. It is the experience that is important, as you have demonstrated on this board so aptly.

It used to be that the Bible was our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. But now????

But now...people can read what is plain in scritures and continue to walk in unbelief!
Charismatics are not in unbelief...We believe what the Word says concerning the Holy Spirit! We do not deny His power! We believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! Others do not!!!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

That is the wonderful part of it! He does need or have too! But he does anyway!


But now...people can read what is plain in scritures and continue to walk in unbelief!
Charismatics are not in unbelief...We believe what the Word says concerning the Holy Spirit! We do not deny His power! We believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! Others do not!!!

No you do not! You twist scripture to try and make it affirm something it does not. Charismatics are the most in unbelief of anybody because they put their experiences above scripture and mangle scripture in an effort to make it support their ungodly doctrines, which it does not and which has been shown to you repeatedly by examining and explaining scripture in context. You are in unbelief because you deny what the scripture teaches. Charismatic doctrine was invented by people who did not believe the Bible, and you are carrying on that tradition. So, it is you who is in unbelief, not those against whom you make that charge.

 

[awaken]

No you do not! You twist scripture to try and make it affirm something it does not. Charismatics are the most in unbelief of anybody because they put their experiences above scripture and mangle scripture in an effort to make it support their ungodly doctrines, which it does not and which has been shown to you repeatedly by examining and explaining scripture in context. You are in unbelief because you deny what the scripture teaches. Charismatic doctrine was invented by people who did not believe the Bible, and you are carrying on that tradition. So, it is you who is in unbelief, not those against whom you make that charge.

Funny, my walk with Jesus is stronger than ever! My desire for Him and His presense in my life is stronger than ever!

It would be nice if you would get off me personally and discuss the scripture! If I post something about the scriptures that is wrong then make your claim and keep the personal stuff to your self or I guess a personal message! But to continue to bash a person as you do is only evidence that you can not debate scriptures...you have to degrade the person or their walk with God to help you!

Your constant degrading post keeps me having to defend myself instead of His Word! It is getting tiresome and I am sure boring to the readers!

 

[DHK]

That is the wonderful part of it! He does need or have too! But he does anyway!

No he doesn't. You claim he does, but cannot give any evidence. Don't make claims you cannot back up.
You claim to speak in tongues. What foreign languages can you speak in?
You claim the gift of healing is operative today. Who has this gift demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16 who healed all that came to him (thousands) with no exceptions, irrespective of how sick they were or what the infirmity was? Why can't you or any of your friends today demonstrate this gift?
Who has the gift of miracles today? Demonstrate it.

You are full of hot air. To claim and not be able to deliver is akin to fraud.

But now...people can read what is plain in scritures and continue to walk in unbelief!
Charismatics are not in unbelief...We believe what the Word says concerning the Holy Spirit! We do not deny His power! We believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! Others do not!!!

You remain in unbelief, in a dream world believing what you cannot do.
You go along with the health and wealth prosperity gospel of others (what Charismatics believe). Would you preach that to the third-world poverty stricken nations also? If you don't believe that why do you associate with them that do.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

You are yoked together with unbelievers of every stripe and color--all yoked with one common denominator--speaking in tongues--the SDA's, Mormons, Catholics, etc.
Your experience is more important to you than your Bible is.
It is you that remains in unbelief.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is the wonderful part of it! He does need or have too! But he does anyway!


But now...people can read what is plain in scritures and continue to walk in unbelief!
Charismatics are not in unbelief...We believe what the Word says concerning the Holy Spirit! We do not deny His power! We believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! Others do not!!!

The bible tells us to believe in jesus, and that the HS will come to lift up jesus to the World...

the HS does NOT exault/toot His own horn, he is here to lift up jesus, so whatever spirit is in your group teachings did not come from Him!

he is the third person of truine God, not a mnifestaqtion that we tuen on and off by unbelief/belief!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Funny, my walk with Jesus is stronger than ever! My desire for Him and His presense in my life is stronger than ever!

It would be nice if you would get off me personally and discuss the scripture! If I post something about the scriptures that is wrong then make your claim and keep the personal stuff to your self or I guess a personal message! But to continue to bash a person as you do is only evidence that you can not debate scriptures...you have to degrade the person or their walk with God to help you!

Your constant degrading post keeps me having to defend myself instead of His Word! It is getting tiresome and I am sure boring to the readers!

You are a liar. Everybody knows that I have presented scripture and discussed the meaning of these scriptures in their context numerous times with you, which you ignore, deny, deflect, twist, contort, mangle, and place your ungodly doctrines above. The correct understanding of those scriptures totally destroys Charismatic doctrine, so you have to lie to deflect from that.

If anyone doubts that I have used scripture many times to refute your occultism, all they have to do is search it for themselves to see how you are lying. Being the exalted, enlightened Christian that you are, I thought the Holy Spirit would have convicted you about openly lying. Looks like you are not what you claim to be.

 

[awaken]

You are a liar. Everybody knows that I have presented scripture and discussed the meaning of these scriptures in their context numerous times with you, which you ignore, deny, deflect, twist, contort, mangle, and place your ungodly doctrines above. The correct understanding of those scriptures totally destroys Charismatic doctrine, so you have to lie to deflect from that.

If anyone doubts that I have used scripture many times to refute your occultism, all they have to do is search it for themselves to see how you are lying. Being the exalted, enlightened Christian that you are, I thought the Holy Spirit would have convicted you about openly lying. Looks like you are not what you claim to be.

If anyone looked back they would see more of the same from you as you are posting in this post! Very little scripture is ever discussed between us!

Just because someone does not go along with your interpretation of scripture...you retort to belittling! You can stay in your unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit..the Baptism in the Holy Spirit...etc.!
You do not have to believe as I do! You are not going to change what I know to be true in my life...I will continue to walk out what He said!

So we just do not agree! As someone said in another post! We will find out who is right one day!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

If anyone looked back they would see more of the same from you as you are posting in this post! Very little scripture is ever discussed between us!

Just because someone does not go along with your interpretation of scripture...you retort to belittling! You can stay in your unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit..the Baptism in the Holy Spirit...etc.!
You do not have to believe as I do! You are not going to change what I know to be true in my life...I will continue to walk out what He said!

So we just do not agree! As someone said in another post! We will find out who is right one day!

The more you post, the more you prove my point. It is not belittling to tell the truth, and the truth is you are a liar. I have posted and discussed scripture with you numerous times. All anybody has to do is search it, as I said.

You are the one who belittles me and every Christian who has ever lived by saying we are in unbelief. You are a demeaning liar, and the truth is not in you. I have told you many times that I am NOT a cessationist, and yet you post demeaning lies about me being in unbelief because I have shown how the scriptures taken in context absolutely destroy your occult doctrines and practices and absolutely and undeniably refute Charismania and its invented, 113 year old unbiblical doctrine of HS baptism and tongues.

It is YOU who are in unbelief. You deny the clear teaching of scripture and elevate your "experience" above it. You do not speak in biblical tongues. You are deceived and are deceiving others. You stubbornly will not listen to what the Bible actually says.

I don't have to wait to see who is right one day. I know what is right because I base my belief on the Bible, and the Bible does not support the doctrines and practices invented by occult-inspired charlatans 113 years ago. Your tongues is not of God. It is the product of your deceived mind.

YOU are in unbelief, and your charge against all believers from the first century until now who didn't and don't believe as you do is an insult and an outrage. You will have to answer for that, too. You are a fraud.

If this gets me an infraction, so be it. I'll take it and whatever else the mods deem to be necessary. Someone needed to post the truth, and I figured it might as well be me.

 

[awaken]

The more you post, the more you prove my point. It is not belittling to tell the truth, and the truth is you are a liar. I have posted and discussed scripture with you numerous times. All anybody has to do is search it, as I said.

You are the one who belittles me and every Christian who has ever lived by saying we are in unbelief. You are a demeaning liar, and the truth is not in you. I have told you many times that I am NOT a cessationist, and yet you post demeaning lies about me being in unbelief because I have shown how the scriptures taken in context absolutely destroy your occult doctrines and practices and absolutely and undeniably refute Charismania and its invented, 113 year old unbiblical doctrine of HS baptism and tongues.

It is YOU who are in unbelief. You deny the clear teaching of scripture and elevate your "experience" above it. You do not speak in biblical tongues. You are deceived and are deceiving others. You stubbornly will not listen to what the Bible actually says.

I don't have to wait to see who is right one day. I know what is right because I base my belief on the Bible, and the Bible does not support the doctrines and practices invented by occult-inspired charlatans 113 years ago. Your tongues is not of God. It is the product of your deceived mind.

YOU are in unbelief, and your charge against all believers from the first century until now who didn't and don't believe as you do is an insult and an outrage. You will have to answer for that, too. You are a fraud.

If this gets me an infraction, so be it. I'll take it and whatever else the mods deem to be necessary. Someone needed to post the truth, and I figured it might as well be me.

I will stick to discussing scripture! We do not agree! I am not a liar! We do not believe the same on most issues! Lets just leave it at that!

No more personal attacks!
One more thing! I hold no ill will toward anyone on this board that does not believe as I do!

 

[Yeshua1]

I will stick to discussing scripture! We do not agree! I am not a liar! We do not believe the same on most issues! Lets just leave it at that!

No more personal attacks!
One more thing! I hold no ill will toward anyone on this board that does not believe as I do!

You CANNOT prove there is a "baptism" in the HS apart from that ALL have experienced at rebirth..

you CANNOT prove tongues were evr a personal prayer language, nor that they exist today as a valid gift...

We CAN prove MOST of so calld healingsand miracls are fraud/dubious at best...

We can prove that MOST of charasmatic doctrines come from experiences and false teachings/doctrines of false;revelations!
We Know that the historical Church did NOT practice tongues, nor gifts of healings/miracles etc

KNOW that the Charasmatic movement strated by occulticpractices and fasle doctrines from chrsitian Science!"