The Work of the Holy Spirit

[awaken]

Again a contradiction. A private prayer language does not profit all, and I question whether it profits the speaker, other than a temporary pleasure that needs another round of speaking in tongues.

In the assembly it profits all with the interpretation. The problem was that they were praying in the spirit without the interpretation. That is like you praying in Japanese in an English church. Pray does benefit both the speaker and the assembly if it is understood. When I hear somone pray in my understanding it does build my faith! BUT tongues without interpretation only benefits the speaker!

I believe that God gives power in answer to prayer. But I don't need tongues for that. I sincerely hope you will read this on-line pamphlet, Why God used D. L. Moody, by R. A. Torrey, with an introduction by my grandfather. Moody was used of God to see a million saved, yet without tongues! Here it is: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/Why.God.Used.D.L.Moody.html

Thank you but prayer in tongues or my own understanding benefits! Tongues helps us pray when we do not know what to pray for! I can start out in my understanding and then began to spray with my spirit. My prayer in my understanding is limited to what I know. Praying in the spirit is not limited! God knows all! He perfect will is prayed as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance.

You mistake the meaning of edify, which is to help someone grow. If you are speaking in tongues, and don't know what you are saying, it does not edify.
So, to clarify, you believe that tongues are THE sign of the baptism/filling of the Holy Spirit. Is that correct? You have not said this before.

I see in scripture that it is a common sign. But there are nine other manifestations! My main sign was exceeding joy and boldness beyond what I had ever experienced! Tongues came later! ( I believe this is because my wrong teaching got in the way).

Again, you have not said this before. If this is what you believe, you have changed, since you used to say that even in 1 Cor. it was all private prayer language. If it is interpreted to other people, then it is not a private prayer language.

Tongues is prayer, not necessarily private. But if there is no interpretation then tongues is private. Just like when you pray in private with your understanding and in public. Tongues was not private in Acts 2, 10, 19 and I believe also in 8. But it does not say anywhere in scripture that they can not praise God in private in the spirit!

To edify does not mean to "strengthen your spirit." The Greek verb is oikodomeo, and means literally to build a house. It is used figuratively "(a) of the establishment and increase of a Christian community known as tbhe houose of God.... (b) of the process of spiritual growth and development of the spiritual community and each member within it" (Fribergs' Anlex, through Bibloi software).

As my faith grows my spirit also grows! Again I ask..is it wrong to build ourselves up in faith?

I will answer the rest later..got to go! Again thank you for the discussion without belittling! It has been refreshing! Even though we do not agree!

 

[John of Japan]

A man with a true experience in never at the mercy of a man with a theory! That said..

Again, you are putting experience before the truth of God. Truth always trumps experience, because experience can be wrong. There are Buddhists who meditate and say they can release their spirit to float around. They are wrong, even though their experience says they are right. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" (John 8:32). Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life," not the experience, not the emotion.

Before there was a doctrine of redemption, there was the experience of Christ's death and resurrection. Long before theologians dissected the operation of the spiritual manifestations, there were biblical stories of spiritual manifestations to base the theology upon. Prior to a theological explanation on domonology, numerous individuals in the NT were delivered from evil spirits. My point is this: There was first an experience before there was a systematic theology taught explaining and dissecting those experiences.

The only One who experienced death and resurrection was Christ, not us. And He said that he is the Truth. He said, "Believe in me," not "experience me.

Theology is never based on experience, it is based on the truth of God. The word "experience" only appears 4 times in the KJV, and the words feel or feeling only occur 10 times, and some of those are not about emotions. The word emotion never ever occurs in the Bible!!! But the word "know" or some variation of it appears in 985 verses in the Bible! We can know we have eternal life, know Him and the power of His resurrection, know the truth, and know many other things.

You can understand HOW to be saved! But you can not actually experience it until you walk it out! I can show you how to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit but you will not experience it until you accept it by faith in what the WORD says.

Sorry, faith and experience are not the same. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for" (Heb. 11:1) not of things experienced or felt.

You know, you are saying many things here about experience without a shred of Biblical basis, in spite of you saying over and over again that you back things up from the Bible.

You can understand knowledge of it...but not actually what happens when you do it! THere is a difference and I think you are smart enough to know that!

Again, there is a huge difference between knowledge and experience. You can experience something entirely false. I've be teaching the Word to a mentally ill man who thought he saw demons turning the doorknob in his room. They weren't.

Buddhists and Shintoists "experience" false things all the time, yet what they think they "know" from their experience is completely false! What would you say to a Buddhist who said, "I experienced things differently from you"???

Then explain why God says to pray for the interpretation if you already know what you are saying? (vs. 13)

That's easy. I know what I'm saying but others don't. Have you ever been in an international church? I preached in one once in English, and it was interpreted around the auditorium into Japanese, Chinese, and I believe Bengali.

Your tongue was a learned language. An unbeliever can learn a language! Only a believer can manifest the Holy Spirit in the nine listed in 1 Cor. 14. I have agreed over and over that tongue is a known language...just not known to the one speaking. Again if the language I was speaking was known to me why did God tell us to ask for the interpretation?

My ability to learn a language was given to me by God. I glorify Him for making me a linguist, interpreter and Bible translator.

Again, if I speak in tongues I may understand it but those around me do not. It is chaos to speak in tongues in a church with no interpretation, and the lost think those people are nuts. I was just looking at exactly that type of service on Youtube. People were speaking in tongues, but folks were walking around, scratching their nose, having conversations--it was chaos.

Yes, but tongues is a manifestation of that power. Because it is a gift from God!

But tongues is not necessary for the power. We are told to be filled with the Spirit in Eph., but that book doesn't mention tongues, and in the whole Bible we are never, ever commanded to speak in tongues.

 

[DHK]

The creator of language does understand every language out there!! Tongues is a language! Therefore he understand it!

The tongues that Charismatics speak today are not languages; it is gibberish. God cannot understand a "language" when it is not a language. He understands languages when they are languages. The same is true for people. If it is not a language it is impossible for anyone, including God to understand. The Charismatic gibberish cannot be translated, interpreted, or understood--by anyone including God.

vs. 2 " For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries"

Speaking of the Corinthian Church who understood Greek, he that spoke in an unknown language, like German or Spanish spoke not unto the Greek speaking men of the Corinthian church, but unto God (because God understands German and Spanish). But no Corinthian understands German or Spanish; he speaks in the spirit mysteries. It doesn't edify. It is a useless gift, for the gift is given only to the church not for the selfish private use of the individual. Every gift was given to the church, not one excluded. Was healing given to be used only at home? Was healing given so you could heal just yourself?

'"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."
Tongues is speaking to God!

If your understanding is unfruitful don't do it! The mind is inoperative and useless. God does not appreciate the mindless work of a brainless Christian. He will receive no reward at the judgment seat of Christ. We are to have are minds engaged at all times. The spirit simply refers to the emotions. So what if you get an emotional high. There is no way that you are getting edified if your mind is not engaged. This is the part of the verse that you have left off.

 

[awaken]

Charismatic tongues as you do them do not help anyone to grow spiritually since they are private and even the one speaking them does not know what he or she is saying. If you don't understand you can't grow. An even if they are interpreted, they are still someone's prayer. Prayer does not edify others except as God answers it. It is the answer that shows how great God is, not the prayer. All religions pray. I have seen Buddhists and Shintoists pray many times.

Well, I am sorry your are not edified when you hear someone pray! I am! I love to hear others pray! In tongues with interpretation and in our own understanding!

I'm sorry, but the lost laugh at Charismatic tongues. They think they are strange, not the power of God. On the other hand, when a gangster or a drug addict or a bar girl gets saved and God changes his life, they listen. I've seen God do all of this in Japan. People are amazed and glorify God at changed lives. They do not do so at Charismatic tongues.

I do not know how most Charismatics speak in tongues in front of the Lost. Our church is very Biblical when it comes to the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Tongues is not spoken in our church without the interpretation! Tongues is the least of the gifts that are manifestated in our assembly! But when they are it is just as powerful as prophecy!

 

[awaken]

Again, you are putting experience before the truth of God. Truth always trumps experience, because experience can be wrong. There are Buddhists who meditate and say they can release their spirit to float around. They are wrong, even though their experience says they are right. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" (John 8:32). Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life," not the experience, not the emotion.
The only One who experienced death and resurrection was Christ, not us. And He said that he is the Truth. He said, "Believe in me," not "experience me.

I agree what you say about truth! But I did not experience first! I read the truth in the Bible..just as I have presented it to you! I believed what I read (repented of my unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit) and then I experienced it!

Theology is never based on experience, it is based on the truth of God. The word "experience" only appears 4 times in the KJV, and the words feel or feeling only occur 10 times, and some of those are not about emotions. The word emotion never ever occurs in the Bible!!! But the word "know" or some variation of it appears in 985 verses in the Bible! We can know we have eternal life, know Him and the power of His resurrection, know the truth, and know many other things.
Sorry, faith and experience are not the same. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for" (Heb. 11:1) not of things experienced or felt.

Actually ...faith is the substance of things hope for, THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN." We believe before we experience or see anything! You read/hear the truth from the Bible...then you believe...then you experience!

You know, you are saying many things here about experience without a shred of Biblical basis, in spite of you saying over and over again that you back things up from the Bible.

I have not shared a lot on this thread..but I have in others! No where does it say the Holy Spirit left or stopped manifesting as some here say He has! I simply believe He is still here for the church as He was poured out on the Day of Pentecost! He will be here until Christ returns!

Again, there is a huge difference between knowledge and experience. You can experience something entirely false. I've be teaching the Word to a mentally ill man who thought he saw demons turning the doorknob in his room. They weren't.

Buddhists and Shintoists "experience" false things all the time, yet what they think they "know" from their experience is completely false! What would you say to a Buddhist who said, "I experienced things differently from you"???

I would ask the Buddist to show me in scripture where you base your belief on! A Buddist is a bad comparison for what we are debating! We are debating scripture...a Buddist does not believe the Holy Bible!

That's easy. I know what I'm saying but others don't. Have you ever been in an international church? I preached in one once in English, and it was interpreted around the auditorium into Japanese, Chinese, and I believe Bengali.
My ability to learn a language was given to me by God. I glorify Him for making me a linguist, interpreter and Bible translator.

That is a natual ability that God gave you...unbelievers can also be a llinguist, interpreter and a Bible translator! It is a learned abiltiy! An unbeliever can not manifest the 9 gifts of the Spirit, they are supernatual!

Again, if I speak in tongues I may understand it but those around me do not. It is chaos to speak in tongues in a church with no interpretation, and the lost think those people are nuts. I was just looking at exactly that type of service on Youtube. People were speaking in tongues, but folks were walking around, scratching their nose, having conversations--it was chaos.
But tongues is not necessary for the power. We are told to be filled with the Spirit in Eph., but that book doesn't mention tongues, and in the whole Bible we are never, ever commanded to speak in tongues.

THe Holy Spirit is what is given for power!
No, we are not commanded to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit! It is a gift! It was given to us by Jesus from the Father! Peter tells you what to do if you want to receive the Holy Spirit, it is not a command but an invitation!

 

[awaken]

The tongues that Charismatics speak today are not languages; it is gibberish. God cannot understand a "language" when it is not a language. He understands languages when they are languages. The same is true for people. If it is not a language it is impossible for anyone, including God to understand. The Charismatic gibberish cannot be translated, interpreted, or understood--by anyone including God.

Wow! You really do put limits on God! Biblical tongues can be interpreted by God and only God! It is God that gives the person the interpretation on tongues!

Speaking of the Corinthian Church who understood Greek, he that spoke in an unknown language, like German or Spanish spoke not unto the Greek speaking men of the Corinthian church, but unto God (because God understands German and Spanish). But no Corinthian understands German or Spanish; he speaks in the spirit mysteries. It doesn't edify. It is a useless gift, for the gift is given only to the church not for the selfish private use of the individual. Every gift was given to the church, not one excluded. Was healing given to be used only at home? Was healing given so you could heal just yourself?

You really go way out there when the text does not! What you keep missing about tongues is that the speaker did not learn the language or does he understand the language! Until you understand that...you will never understand tongues!

If your understanding is unfruitful don't do it! The mind is inoperative and useless. God does not appreciate the mindless work of a brainless Christian. He will receive no reward at the judgment seat of Christ. We are to have are minds engaged at all times. The spirit simply refers to the emotions. So what if you get an emotional high. There is no way that you are getting edified if your mind is not engaged. This is the part of the verse that you have left off.

There you go adding to the Word what God does not say! It does not say don't do it! Just do it with the interpretation so all will be edified!

 

[John of Japan]

I would ask the Buddist to show me in scripture where you base your belief on! A Buddist is a bad comparison for what we are debating! We are debating scripture...a Buddist does not believe the Holy Bible!

No, but the Buddhist has his ancient sutras, which are their scriptures. He would base his experience on his sutras, which he thinks are true. You have to show him where his scriptures are false and the Bible is true. And you do this without your tongues experiences, because he believes he has experiences just as good.

You have been waffling on experience, you know. As long as you say I can't understand tongues without experiencing it, you are putting experience before God's revealed truth, no matter how many times you try to get around it. Truth (and I am not saying theology, I am saying proper exegesis of Scripture) absolutely must come first.

That is a natual ability that God gave you...unbelievers can also be a llinguist, interpreter and a Bible translator! It is a learned abiltiy! An unbeliever can not manifest the 9 gifts of the Spirit, they are supernatual!

No, it is not a learned ability, it is a learned skill. The ability comes from God. A person may develop it into a skill by hard work, or he may not. On the other hand, many missionaries do not have this God-given ability, and instead become fluent through pure hard work. Now I worked hard to develop my ability into a skill (35-40 hours a week for two years), but it just came easier.

God gets all the glory here. And you can't prove to me that all of the spiritual gifts are supernatural, since several obviously are not. So when you say that tongues are supernatural in 1 Cor., you have to prove it. Simply saying it doesn't make it so.

THe Holy Spirit is what is given for power!

Wrong way to say it. The Holy Spirit is given for indwelling. He Himself gives the power, He is not an item to be passed around like an "item" in a role-playing game that gives you more lives.

No, we are not commanded to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit! It is a gift! It was given to us by Jesus from the Father! Peter tells you what to do if you want to receive the Holy Spirit, it is not a command but an invitation!

Please pay attention to what I actually wrote. I did not say that we are not commanded to receive the baptism of the Spirit, I said that we are not commanded to speak in tongues. There is a huge difference there.

We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit (same as the baptism) in Eph. 5:18, and that is for power. There is no excuse for a Christian to be without power in his or her life.

 

[DHK]

Wow! You really do put limits on God! Biblical tongues can be interpreted by God and only God! It is God that gives the person the interpretation on tongues!

I don't put any limits on God.
In order to "disprove" the omnipotence of God the atheist asks the question: "Can God create a rock so big that he cannot life"?
The answer is "No." Why? God can only do those things that are in the realm of the possibility. For example God, by definition, cannot make 2+2=5. Neither can God make understand a language that is not a language. He can only do those things which are in the realm of the possible. He can do the impossible, but it still has to be possible by definition, that is something that man cannot do, but God can. But there are certain things that both by logic, and by definition, that cannot be done, neither by God nor by man. He cannot make 2+2=5, nor can he understand a language that is not a language (Gibberish).

You really go way out there when the text does not! What you keep missing about tongues is that the speaker did not learn the language or does he understand the language! Until you understand that...you will never understand tongues!

1. It is a gift, and therefore the speaker did not learn the language.
2. It is the gift of languages, and therefore the speaker knows the language being spoken otherwise it would not be a gift of languages, would it? Anyone can utter gibberish. Mormons, Hindus, Voodooism, etc. That in itself proves that gibberish is not of God; not of the Holy Spirit. Anyone can do it. But not anyone can miraculously speak in another language, a known language that you didn't previously know, but now you know and understand. You don't need to go to language school now.
3. If he doesn't understand the language, he doesn't have the gift; he has nothing at all.
4. Until you understand the above you will never understand what Biblical tongues are all about, and you will go on speaking a cheap imitation of the Biblical gift that also the heathen do--Hindus and those that practice Voodooism--well known in the occult.

There you go adding to the Word what God does not say! It does not say don't do it! Just do it with the interpretation so all will be edified!

But in a private prayer language you don't have an interpreter. You are out of order.
In the churches you attend you have no idea if the interpretation is correct.
In the church at Corinth there were prophets who judged the interpretation to see whether it was truly of God. God gave them the discernment. You don't have that in your church. Your tongues speaker could be praising the devil, and your interpreter could be giving a false interpretation. How would you know?

 

[awaken]

No, but the Buddhist has his ancient sutras, which are their scriptures. He would base his experience on his sutras, which he thinks are true. You have to show him where his scriptures are false and the Bible is true. And you do this without your tongues experiences, because he believes he has experiences just as good.

I can only share with any unbeliever...it is God's job to convict and change the heart or belief! My doctrine is within the Word of God!

You have been waffling on experience, you know. As long as you say I can't understand tongues without experiencing it, you are putting experience before God's revealed truth, no matter how many times you try to get around it. Truth (and I am not saying theology, I am saying proper exegesis of Scripture) absolutely must come first.

I have said that! Truth/hearing/reading it...then experience! You will not accept tongue so you are still in unbelief concerning them! Therefore you do not believe what the Word says about them...so you will not experience what you do not believe first!

No, it is not a learned ability, it is a learned skill. The ability comes from God. A person may develop it into a skill by hard work, or he may not. On the other hand, many missionaries do not have this God-given ability, and instead become fluent through pure hard work. Now I worked hard to develop my ability into a skill (35-40 hours a week for two years), but it just came easier.

You miss the point! An unbeliever can learn to speak in other languages! This is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit UNLESS you are saying an unbeliever has the Holy Spirit. Tongues and interpretation is a supernatural manifestation!

God gets all the glory here. And you can't prove to me that all of the spiritual gifts are supernatural, since several obviously are not. So when you say that tongues are supernatural in 1 Cor., you have to prove it. Simply saying it doesn't make it so.

Explain how an unbeliever can manifest what he does not have. If an unbeliever teaches..it is his natural ability given from God, true! But it is still his flesh being manifested!

Wrong way to say it. The Holy Spirit is given for indwelling. He Himself gives the power, He is not an item to be passed around like an "item" in a role-playing game that gives you more lives.

Lets see what Acts says.."But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..." I said nothing about the Holy Spirit being passed around like a game!!!

Please pay attention to what I actually wrote. I did not say that we are not commanded to receive the baptism of the Spirit, I said that we are not commanded to speak in tongues. There is a huge difference there.

We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit (same as the baptism) in Eph. 5:18, and that is for power. There is no excuse for a Christian to be without power in his or her life.[/QUOTE]
When you accept Jesus as your savior the Holy Spirit is inside you/born again/born from above, right?
But where we disagree is that there are more than one work of the Holy Spirit..I believe one is for salvation, the indwelling! ...And one is for Power, UPON! They can happen all at once as in Acts 10 but the others show it a separate working!

Again, as far as tongues...I have never said it was a command!

 

[awaken]

I don't put any limits on God.
In order to "disprove" the omnipotence of God the atheist asks the question: "Can God create a rock so big that he cannot life"?
The answer is "No." Why? God can only do those things that are in the realm of the possibility. For example God, by definition, cannot make 2+2=5. Neither can God make understand a language that is not a language. He can only do those things which are in the realm of the possible. He can do the impossible, but it still has to be possible by definition, that is something that man cannot do, but God can. But there are certain things that both by logic, and by definition, that cannot be done, neither by God nor by man. He cannot make 2+2=5, nor can he understand a language that is not a language (Gibberish).

Your continual mistake is that tongues is a language that God can understand! Only unbelievers concerning tongues call it gibberish!

1. It is a gift, and therefore the speaker did not learn the language.

This one we agree! It is supercedes any natural ability!

2. It is the gift of languages, and therefore the speaker knows the language being spoken otherwise it would not be a gift of languages, would it? Anyone can utter gibberish. Mormons, Hindus, Voodooism, etc. That in itself proves that gibberish is not of God; not of the Holy Spirit. Anyone can do it. But not anyone can miraculously speak in another language, a known language that you didn't previously know, but now you know and understand. You don't need to go to language school now.

YOu have added your interpretation to the Word again! Nowhere does it say the speaker himself knows the language he is speaking! IF he did why did God tell him to pray for the interpretation???

3. If he doesn't understand the language, he doesn't have the gift; he has nothing at all.

Show me this in scripture. Where do you come up with some of this stuff??? Why can't you understand that he does not know the language? If he understood, why would God tell him to pray for the interpretation?? Common sense!

4. Until you understand the above you will never understand what Biblical tongues are all about, and you will go on speaking a cheap imitation of the Biblical gift that also the heathen do--Hindus and those that practice Voodooism--well known in the occult.

I will never understand your interpretation because it contradicts scripture!

But in a private prayer language you don't have an interpreter. You are out of order.

Out of order???? He is correcting tongues in an assembly. There is no order in our private prayer time! I can talk to God anywhere I want! God can give the interpretation in private just like He can in the assembly!

In the churches you attend you have no idea if the interpretation is correct.
In the church at Corinth there were prophets who judged the interpretation to see whether it was truly of God. God gave them the discernment. You don't have that in your church. Your tongues speaker could be praising the devil, and your interpreter could be giving a false interpretation. How would you know?

So now you are saying God does not give us the gift of discernment? Good grief! You are getting desperate to prove your theory!

It is the prophets that speak and needs to be judged.
"Let the prophet speak two or three, and let the other judge" You are really getting it all confused!

One of the Nine gifts listed is discernment! Our spirit will also bear witness with the Holy Spirit if it is of God or not!

 

[Luke2427]

Correct!

`YOur not going to understand this unless you speak in tongues. But when you pray in the spirit..many times things will be revealed to you from the Holy Spirit. That is God speaking to you!
Prayer is communication with God! John 16:13 says the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth! He speaks to our spirit!

This is, in my opinion, the most DANGEROUS thing in evangelicalism today!

There is ABSOLUTELY NO biblical support for this nonsense!

More than anything since Excathedra it undermines the authority of the Scriptures.

Awaken, I want to say this as clearly as I can- GOD DOES NOT SPEAK TO YOU OUTSIDE OF THE SCRIPTURES AND PROVIDENCE.

God does not speak to your spirit.

When you pray or speak in tongues and words start popping in your head- that is not God speaking to you. It is your own mind contriving things that make you think you are connecting with God.

There is NO, I repeat NO, absolutely not ONE OUNCE of biblical support for this notion of yours.

This thinking is LITERALLY sending the church of our generation back into the dark ages we fought so hard to get out of.

If people like you don't stop spreading the disease of this kind of thinking in our culture, the church IN OUR CULTURE is done for.

Oh, the Church worldwide will survive- but this thinking of yours that is so mind numbingly popular today is absolutely KILLING Christianity in our culture.

It is replacing the word of God with feelings and experiences.

It is replacing making all important decisions by wisdom with making them by silly, fickle emotional experiences.

Please, please, please consider that you could be absolutely dead wrong about this!

 

[plain_n_simple]

No where does it say that the gifts will cease when the canon was complete. Zero. Notta. When we die, or when Christ returns, ending this age of grace, will they cease. People who reject the gifts are powerless in their walk, which is really only talk. Has knowledge, wisdom, faith, and discerning of spirits passed? No. Yet the gifts that require proof or manifestation are rejected by those who cannot believe what Jesus said we will do. It is a conviction from scripture itself that the reader says to himself "Oh snap, I should be doing this because Jesus said I would." The skeptic then either has to take scripture in earnest and understand why he hasn't the faith , or find ways to escape his conviction that he does not meet the mark. Sadly the latter is more common. This is what separates true believes and those who try to believe with intellect, but reject in the heart, thus making them unbelievers of the full gospel.

 

[DHK]

Your continual mistake is that tongues is a language that God can understand! Only unbelievers concerning tongues call it gibberish!

So there is gibberish given by the Holy Spirit and gibberish given by demonic spirits? How can you tell the difference? How many different kinds of gibberish are there? Do you speak Gibberish-A or Gibberish-B or Gibberish-C? Or how do you classify them? Gibberish is gibberish. Speaking in tongues is speaking in a known language. If you could do that you would be able to tell me what language you were speaking in, but you can't. You speak in a pagan gibberish.

This one we agree! It is supercedes any natural ability!

The Biblical gift of languages is; the Charismatic "gibberish" is totally carnal--an emotional high. It is not a language at all. Tell me which ones you speak. Why can't you do that if you have "the gift of languages." If I have the gift of healing I could tell you what part of the body I have just healed, what the infirmity is, and who I just healed. I wouldn't utter some hocus pocus words and then say you are healed, not knowing the person or the affliction. But that is the Charismatic way isn't it?

YOu have added your interpretation to the Word again! Nowhere does it say the speaker himself knows the language he is speaking! IF he did why did God tell him to pray for the interpretation???

Salvation is a gift. I know what salvation is.
Other spiritual gifts: Healing. They knew who they healed and what they were healed of. They were not ignorant of the gift.
In all the gifts they were not ignorant of what they were doing. You claim ignorance in you so-called tongues. But the real gift of tongues there was no ignorance. They knew what they were speaking. It was a gift of God. They could speak the language that God had given them and understand what they were speaking. They weren't mindless fools.

Show me this in scripture. Where do you come up with some of this stuff??? Why can't you understand that he does not know the language? If he understood, why would God tell him to pray for the interpretation?? Common sense!

I have explained this many times before but you don't listen.
One reason is simply that it was a sign to the Jews.
Another reason is that there were two language groups.
The interpretation was for the second language group.

I will never understand your interpretation because it contradicts scripture!

Nothing I have said contradicts scripture, only your interpretation of scripture.

Out of order???? He is correcting tongues in an assembly. There is no order in our private prayer time! I can talk to God anywhere I want! God can give the interpretation in private just like He can in the assembly!

The gift of languages was a gift given only to be used in the church, as were all of the gifts. 1Cor.12 teaches that. They were gifts given to the local church and dispersed among the members of the church, not for the selfish use of individual members.
Talk to God, but in your own language. The gift of languages is for the church.

So now you are saying God does not give us the gift of discernment? Good grief! You are getting desperate to prove your theory!

No. Carnal believers don't have discernment. The church at Corinth was full of carnal believers. According to what you post you don't have much discernment either, for you are putting your experiences as more important than the Word itself.

It is the prophets that speak and needs to be judged.
"Let the prophet speak two or three, and let the other judge" You are really getting it all confused!

In the entire fourteenth chapter tongues is pitted against prophesy. Prophecy is better because all could understand it, and thus be edified. However tongues properly interpreted is a revelatory gift (!Cor.13:8) and would have just as much weight as prophecy. Thus the prophets would "judge," or discern. That was their duty.

One of the Nine gifts listed is discernment! Our spirit will also bear witness with the Holy Spirit if it is of God or not!

Does your spirit bear witness with God's Spirit that you are a child of God?

In the Corinthian Church they could not tell if the source was pagan or not. 1Cor.12:1-3 tells us that.

 

[awaken]

This is, in my opinion, the most DANGEROUS thing in evangelicalism today!

There is ABSOLUTELY NO biblical support for this nonsense!

More than anything since Excathedra it undermines the authority of the Scriptures.

Awaken, I want to say this as clearly as I can- GOD DOES NOT SPEAK TO YOU OUTSIDE OF THE SCRIPTURES AND PROVIDENCE.

God does not speak to your spirit.

When you pray or speak in tongues and words start popping in your head- that is not God speaking to you. It is your own mind contriving things that make you think you are connecting with God.

There is NO, I repeat NO, absolutely not ONE OUNCE of biblical support for this notion of yours.

This thinking is LITERALLY sending the church of our generation back into the dark ages we fought so hard to get out of.

If people like you don't stop spreading the disease of this kind of thinking in our culture, the church IN OUR CULTURE is done for.

Oh, the Church worldwide will survive- but this thinking of yours that is so mind numbingly popular today is absolutely KILLING Christianity in our culture.

It is replacing the word of God with feelings and experiences.

It is replacing making all important decisions by wisdom with making them by silly, fickle emotional experiences.

Please, please, please consider that you could be absolutely dead wrong about this!

Just the opposite! My desire to know Him and His written Word is stronger than ever!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Charismatic tongues is a learned behavior of willfully deceived minds. It's a simple as that. I've seen Charismatic ministers trying to teach someone how to speak in tongues. I recognized this right off as false, and foolish deception.

 

[awaken]

Gibberish is gibberish. Speaking in tongues is speaking in a known language. If you could do that you would be able to tell me what language you were speaking in, but you can't. You speak in a pagan gibberish.

I will not respond to your claim that tongues is gibberish any more! Tongue is a language...BUT NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY YOU KNOW THE LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK. So until you can prove that in scripture...the discussion about tongues is closed to us concerning this one aspect!

Salvation is a gift. I know what salvation is.
Other spiritual gifts: Healing. They knew who they healed and what they were healed of. They were not ignorant of the gift.
In all the gifts they were not ignorant of what they were doing. You claim ignorance in you so-called tongues. But the real gift of tongues there was no ignorance. They knew what they were speaking. It was a gift of God. They could speak the language that God had given them and understand what they were speaking. They weren't mindless fools.

Really????? Then why does the WORD OF GOD say to pray for the interpretation? Why would you need to pray for understanding of what you are saying if you knew? Your theory is blown out of the water with that one scripture!!!

I have explained this many times before but you don't listen.
One reason is simply that it was a sign to the Jews.
Another reason is that there were two language groups.
The interpretation was for the second language group.

The only time someone spoke in tongues and they understood was Acts 2! The only ones that understood were the unbelieving Jews! There was no interpreter! The rest of the examples no one interpreted! The only time that an interpreter is needed is when you are in the assembly. They were praying in the spirit in church without an interpreter. That was the rebuke! NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT THE ONES SPEAKING KNEW THEMSELVES WHAT THEY WERE SAYING!

The gift of languages was a gift given only to be used in the church, as were all of the gifts. 1Cor.12 teaches that. They were gifts given to the local church and dispersed among the members of the church, not for the selfish use of individual members.
Talk to God, but in your own language. The gift of languages is for the church.

Speaking to God in the spirit it for anytime! We are the church! Prayer (of any kind) is given to the church to pray anytime! We are to praise him in church too! But that can be done anywhere! We can magnify him too, and that can be done anywhere! We can have faith in the church too, but that can be done anywhere! We can lay hands on the sick in church, but we can do that anywhere! We can have discernment in church, but that can be done anywhere! Miracles can be done at church, but we see miracles happening everywhere! God can give us a word of wisdom or knowledge for someone anywhere! Your theory does not hold water in light of the Scriptures!!!

In the entire fourteenth chapter tongues is pitted against prophesy. Prophecy is better because all could understand it, and thus be edified. However tongues properly interpreted is a revelatory gift (!Cor.13:8) and would have just as much weight as prophecy. Thus the prophets would "judge," or discern. That was their duty.

If tongues is revelations then why did he mention revelations separate than tongues in vs. 26? I have never heard a message in tongues and it be a revelation! It is always a praise and a way to magnify God!

Does your spirit bear witness with God's Spirit that you are a child of God?

Yes!!!

In the Corinthian Church they could not tell if the source was pagan or not. 1Cor.12:1-3 tells us that.

Where does it say in 1 Cor. 14 they were discerning if it was pagan? THey were just misusing "praying in the spirit" in the assembly and he was correcting it!

 

[awaken]

Charismatic tongues is a learned behavior of willfully deceived minds. It's a simple as that. I've seen Charismatic ministers trying to teach someone how to speak in tongues. I recognized this right off as false, and foolish deception.

Your wrong experience should not judge the right ones! I was not taught how to speak in tongues! Our church does not teach someone HOW to speak in tongues! They teach the truth! The people believe it! Then they experience it! WE teach the truth in the Word! Being a Baptist church...we keep everything in line with the Word!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Your wrong experience should not judge the right ones! I was not taught how to speak in tongues! Our church does not teach someone HOW to speak in tongues! They teach the truth! The people believe it! Then they experience it! WE teach the truth in the Word! Being a Baptist church...we keep everything in line with the Word!

That is a false statement because as I have shown numerous times, the latest being a few moments ago in another thread, your teaching is unscriptural and anti-scriptural. Scripture nowhere supports the Charismatic views of the baptism by the HS and tongues, or a private prayer language. Your "experience" and teaching is based on occult sources, whether you know or acknowledge it or not. You are sailing in dangerous waters.

 

[Luke2427]

No where does it say that the gifts will cease when the canon was complete. Zero. Notta. When we die, or when Christ returns, ending this age of grace, will they cease.

Yes there is. But even if there weren't texts that explicitly stated that the charismata gifts would cease, we still would know that they should have ceased.

Who believes that anybody is parting seas and rivers today? Nobody. Why? Because that miracle was for a particular time period and served a particular purpose and then it ceased.

The same with calling down fire from heaven.

The same with making ax heads float.

The same with shouting walls down.

These miracles exploded on the scene for a generation or two and then ceased.

That is what biblical miracles do.

Who believes VISIBLE cloven tongues of fire are resting on people today? Nobody. That was a miracle that existed for a short while and disappeared.

The Bible reveals that this is the way God works.

The burden of proof then falls on the ones who say these miraculous gifts should do what no other such miracles ever did in the Bible- continue for two thousand years.

You cannot prove that. It is not true. Anybody can emulate this talking in gibberish mess that goes on today. It is nothing more than emotional ecstasy which cults the world over participate in as well.

People who reject the gifts are powerless in their walk, which is really only talk. Has knowledge, wisdom, faith, and discerning of spirits passed? No.

Yes. The miraculous ability to know things one has not learned HAS ceased just as all the other miraculous gifts ceased. They lasted for a generation or two and then they ceased.

Yet the gifts that require proof or manifestation are rejected by those who cannot believe what Jesus said we will do.

So the ones who serve Christ faithfully without the need of such manifestations to prop up their faith are the weak ones??

That makes ABSOLUTELY no sense.

Charles Spurgeon was powerless??

Jonathan Edwards was powerless??

George Whitefield was powerless??

What you don't understand is that NOBODY, except a VERY few cults that you would not let in your pulpits because of their other heretical doctrine, believed this nonsense for MOST of church history.

So the church was powerless for MOST of its history??

During this time the church carried the Gospel to the ends of the earth- but it was powerless?

William Carey was powerless?

The ones who are powerless ar ethe ones who need these experiences to prop up their faith.

The rest of us are fully persuaded that Jesus is who he said he was WITHOUT the need of these experiences.

It is a conviction from scripture itself that the reader says to himself "Oh snap, I should be doing this because Jesus said I would."

Unless the reader actually comprehends the Scriptures he reads.

 

[Luke2427]

Just the opposite! My desire to know Him and His written Word is stronger than ever!

You did not engage my arguments at all.

Do you know why?

Because you can't.

You are duped. And you don't know how to deal with the facts, while at the same time you don't want to admit what you hold so dear is nothing more than emotional ecstasy which cults all over the world conjure as well as Christian tongue talkers do.