Of course I like the plain text, and you should too--not reading into the text things that are not there. That is what you are doing. There is no prayer in that text--none at all. It is about "speaking in another language," not about prayer. There is nothing mentioned about prayer. Never does it say to pray in tongues; never!
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The Work of the Holy Spirit
- Thread starter Tom Butler
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In either your native language, or other learned ones!
But speaking to God is prayer in any language, right?
Speaking to God is exactly what it says it is.
It is not speaking in another language!
If you are going to pray, then God prefers to hear you in your own language so that he can properly understand what you are saying. You are not clearly understood in another language you don't know are you. You speak in mysteries, as the verse says. No man understands you. Speak to God (in your own language). Tongues was being condemned.
I really don't have time to answer this whole post, since we just finished a special meeting, it's almost the weekend, and I have to leave on a trip Sunday evening. But there are a couple of points I simply must answer.
First of all, the above view means you can make Scripture second to experience, and that is very dangerous spiritually. I urge you to repent (change your thinking) about this. It is akin to the secular philosophy of existentialism, which says what you experience in the moment is true, and you don't need verifiable truth. This comes out in theology as neo-orthodoxy. Whether you realize it or not, you are propounding this huge error.
You say people can't understand salvation before they expereience it. This is neo-orthodoxy all the way, and it is completely wrong. You cannot be saved until you understand salvation: sin, the need for repentance, salvation from Hell, Christ as the Savior, His death on the cross and resurrection as real and vital. Salvation is definitely not what you say above: "a continual learning of who God is and how He works." I urge you to repent from this false view.
Can I understand murder without killing someone? Of course. Can I understand marriage without getting married? Absolutely. Can I understand walking with God while being backslidden? Of course. So what you are saying, that one cannot understand tongues without experiencing them, is exactly wrong doctrine.
The problem here is your definition of tongues. You are using the plural, which says to you that "tongues" are the ecstatic utterance given you by the Holy Spirit. But the text doesn't support that. Every single mention you give here, EVERY SINGLE ONE, is singular, showing that it is a particular language known to the speaker, not an ecstatic utterance unknown to the speaker.
Furthermore, you fail to understand that the word "tongue" is a genuine, known language. That is what the word meant in 1611 when the KJV was translated. I pray in a language every time I pray. Every day I pray in either the English or Japanese language.
So it is not tongues that helped you, it is the knowledge of the Holy Spirit's power, correct? Then let me ask you, what reason in the whole world or the whole Bible is there for me to speak in Charismatic tongues, an unknown prayer language?
(1) To witness for Christ? You say that is not what they are for.
(2) To obey God? There is no command in all of Scripture for me to speak in tongues.
(3) To have greater power for God's work? According to you that is not the purpose.
(4) To have some kind of private joy and pleasure that other Christians who don't speak in tongues don't have? That is the way to spiritual pride. Besides, the fruit of the Spirit includes joy in Gal. 5:22. So I have joy every single day by walking in the Holy Spirit.
So what reason is there for any Christian to speak in Charismatic tongues in 2013? Absolutely none at all!
I see no need to belittle you. I just try to show you how wrong you are in the faint hope that it will come back to you some day when you are reconsidering your tongues.
A man with a true experience in never at the mercy of a man with a theory! That said..
Before there was a doctrine of redemption, there was the experience of Christ's death and resurrection. Long before theologians dissected the operation of the spiritual manifestations, there were biblical stories of spiritual manifestations to base the theology upon. Prior to a theological explanation on domonology, numerous individuals in the NT were delivered from evil spirits. My point is this: There was first an experience before there was a systematic theology taught explaining and dissecting those experiences.
You can understand HOW to be saved! But you can not actually experience it until you walk it out! I can show you how to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit but you will not experience it until you accept it by faith in what the WORD says.
You can understand knowledge of it...but not actually what happens when you do it! THere is a difference and I think you are smart enough to know that!
Then explain why God says to pray for the interpretation if you already know what you are saying? (vs. 13)
Your tongue was a learned language. An unbeliever can learn a language! Only a believer can manifest the Holy Spirit in the nine listed in 1 Cor. 14. I have agreed over and over that tongue is a known language...just not known to the one speaking. Again if the language I was speaking was known to me why did God tell us to ask for the interpretation?
Yes, but tongues is a manifestation of that power. Because it is a gift from God!
I will answer the rest later...
The fruit is evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit! What does 1 Cor. 12 say the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is for? To profit all! They were given to the church to help them in there walk here on earth. The Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost for power to carry out what God calls us to. (So #3 is false concerning what I believe, I do believe it is for power).
I believe tongues edifies just as prayer edifies!
Do I get joy out of obeying my father about praying? YES!
Our spirit is edified (build up) by praying, our faith is strengthen, joy abounds when prayers are answered etc.
As far as speaking in tongues and not all can speak...I do not believe this! I believe the baptism in the Holy Spirit is for all believers! Every example that the Holy Spirit came upon believers they spoke in tongue. Why do all not do it today? Wrong theology/teachings!
I do not believe we all have a ministry in the assembly to speak in tongues and interpret for the congregation. This is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 12:27-30. I have not been called into this ministry to the assembly. If you will read 1 Cor. 14 carefully that is what Paul is teaching them. Your private prayer/tongues is between you and God(prayer)...not for the assemble unless you have the interpretation. He is not forbidding speaking to God by tongues, just do it in order and with interpretation for all to be edified.
One last thing on tongues and edification...it is not a bad thing to build yourself up (strengthen your spirit). THe stronger we are spriitually the better equipped we are to serve Him. This is why we read and pray..this is why we walk out what He tells us too!
Again I appreciate your kindness even though we do not agree on this!
God died to give us life and to pour out the Holy Spirit upon us for power. The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is for us (for power) and for others (to witness what God has done for us). When people witness the true power of God in a persons life that will speak louder than you telling them and never living out that power.
If we were to put on a DVD your tongue praying to hgod, which earth language would it be in?
Do you also pray for the interpration of it, so that you can even know what you just said to God?
THis thread is about the Work of the Holy Spirit...not about my personal walk!
But no, I do not know the language! Do you know every language in the world?
Yes, I do pray for the interpretation! Yes! He will give it to me!
I can probably recognize every language in the world as a language, a known language.
No doubt I can differentiate gibberish from known languages.
Really, that isn't hard to do.
You should know the difference and stop the facade.
Yes, this thread is about the Holy Spirit, and your personal beliefs. And if that involves your experiences so be it.
We had a discussion with a person on the trinity. He denied it. We probed him as to his PERSONAL beliefs on the trinity. It involved some of his experiences. There is no difference between that and you. Personal convictions/experiences are up for debate when defending a particular position.
what did he tell you the tongue meant in the Interpretation?
saturneptune
New Member
Here is a short clip of the actual sound of tongues, LOL. Where do these people come from, and how would you interpret this??
http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/yhs...t&hsimp=yhs-att_001&type=att_lego_portal_home
Click on first row, extreme right
http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/yhs...t&hsimp=yhs-att_001&type=att_lego_portal_home
Click on first row, extreme right
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I want to make this as clear and unmistakable as I know how:
This doctrine that Awaken is promoting is totally false and unscriptural. There is no HS baptism apart from conversion. No believer has to seek it or ask for it, as every believer has already experienced it, when they believed! And the second doctrine accompanying the first false doctrine, that everyone can and should speak in tongues as the initial evidence of this supposed HS baptism, is just as false and unscriptural as the first. Several of us have shown and proven by scripture IN CONTEXT that this is the case. The doctrines that Awaken promotes were invented in 100-1905 by Charles Parham and William J. Seymour and were occult-influenced. There is no "private prayer language" that every believe can and should have. Nowhere in scripture can such be found. It has also been proven on the mission field that Charismatic/Pentecostal tongues are the vain babblings of foolish, gullible, and deceived humans, gibberish only and not real languages.
Scripture taken in context disproves Charismatic/Pentecostal doctrine, and yet this poster continues to ignore this scripture taken in context and push her gross errors. Why? Because her alleged experience trumps scripture, and she wants it to. She does not accept the truth of the scriptures in context that she has been shown. She thus denies scriptural truth, ignores it, and stubbornly persists in pushing the false and even dangerous Charismatic, occult-inspired, scripture-denying, experience-only based error. If she persists in following this path, she may one day have a rude awakening. I have seen it happen.
This doctrine that Awaken is promoting is totally false and unscriptural. There is no HS baptism apart from conversion. No believer has to seek it or ask for it, as every believer has already experienced it, when they believed! And the second doctrine accompanying the first false doctrine, that everyone can and should speak in tongues as the initial evidence of this supposed HS baptism, is just as false and unscriptural as the first. Several of us have shown and proven by scripture IN CONTEXT that this is the case. The doctrines that Awaken promotes were invented in 100-1905 by Charles Parham and William J. Seymour and were occult-influenced. There is no "private prayer language" that every believe can and should have. Nowhere in scripture can such be found. It has also been proven on the mission field that Charismatic/Pentecostal tongues are the vain babblings of foolish, gullible, and deceived humans, gibberish only and not real languages.
Scripture taken in context disproves Charismatic/Pentecostal doctrine, and yet this poster continues to ignore this scripture taken in context and push her gross errors. Why? Because her alleged experience trumps scripture, and she wants it to. She does not accept the truth of the scriptures in context that she has been shown. She thus denies scriptural truth, ignores it, and stubbornly persists in pushing the false and even dangerous Charismatic, occult-inspired, scripture-denying, experience-only based error. If she persists in following this path, she may one day have a rude awakening. I have seen it happen.
Your opinion is noted but yet to be proven by scripture!
Where did I say it wasn't. Speak to God all you want. I am sure he will appreciate it. But do it in your own language--that which he understands, and you understand. Even though God is omniscient he doesn't understand Charismatic gibberish, which is the modern tongues of this day. You can't prove me wrong on that can you. He doesn't know what you are saying just like no one else can either.
The creator of language does understand every language out there!! Tongues is a language! Therefore he understand it!
vs. 2 " For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries"
'"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."
Tongues is speaking to God!
Again a contradiction. A private prayer language does not profit all, and I question whether it profits the speaker, other than a temporary pleasure that needs another round of speaking in tongues.
I believe that God gives power in answer to prayer. But I don't need tongues for that. I sincerely hope you will read this on-line pamphlet, Why God used D. L. Moody, by R. A. Torrey, with an introduction by my grandfather. Moody was used of God to see a million saved, yet without tongues! Here it is: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/Why.God.Used.D.L.Moody.html
You mistake the meaning of edify, which is to help someone grow. If you are speaking in tongues, and don't know what you are saying, it does not edify.
So, to clarify, you believe that tongues are THE sign of the baptism/filling of the Holy Spirit. Is that correct? You have not said this before.
Again, you have not said this before. If this is what you believe, you have changed, since you used to say that even in 1 Cor. it was all private prayer language. If it is interpreted to other people, then it is not a private prayer language.
To edify does not mean to "strengthen your spirit." The Greek verb is oikodomeo, and means literally to build a house. It is used figuratively "(a) of the establishment and increase of a Christian community known as tbhe houose of God.... (b) of the process of spiritual growth and development of the spiritual community and each member within it" (Fribergs' Anlex, through Bibloi software).
Charismatic tongues as you do them do not help anyone to grow spiritually since they are private and even the one speaking them does not know what he or she is saying. If you don't understand you can't grow. An even if they are interpreted, they are still someone's prayer. Prayer does not edify others except as God answers it. It is the answer that shows how great God is, not the prayer. All religions pray. I have seen Buddhists and Shintoists pray many times.
I'm sorry, but the lost laugh at Charismatic tongues. They think they are strange, not the power of God. On the other hand, when a gangster or a drug addict or a bar girl gets saved and God changes his life, they listen. I've seen God do all of this in Japan. People are amazed and glorify God at changed lives. They do not do so at Charismatic tongues.
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