Theistic evolution or non-theistic evolution

I've already generally answered this question in post #53 but can go into specifics if you are sincerely interested in learning.

I understand you don't believe and likely never will and I'm not interested in convincing you to believe. But if you want to learn what evolution really says, develop a good understanding of what you are opposed to, if you want to know where its limitations are and what the strongest arguments against it are so that you can have a more informed discussion and try to convince those who disagree with you to your view, I am willing to help. Even for theistic evolution, if you want to know the best counterarguments against it, I can also help you with that.

Let me know when you are ready.

 

Interesting to me that never seem to be able to get a straight answer on where the evidence is for changes from one species to another, or origin of life!
I do hold that there was evolution aspects within the same species, like dogs developing different traits, but not that a dog ever became a cat!

 

I'll take that is a no, you aren't interested in learning about what evolution and theistic evolution actually say. Because if you are interested, you have a strange way of saying it. Have a good day.

 

Why would God use Evolution, as he is the creator of all kinds after their own kind? Do you hold to a literal view on genesis, as in 6 days, adam a special creation etc?

 

If you don't believe "In the beginning God created..." as literal truth, how can you believe "I am the resurrection and the life..."? The more I read and learn, the more I come to understand that abiogenesis is impossible.

 

BACKGROUND ~

EVOLUTION ~ Supposedly according to Darwin's Theory ~

The theory of evolution by natural selection, first formulated in Darwin's book "On the Origin of Species" in 1859, is the process by which organisms change over time as a result of changes in heritable physical or behavioral traits.

How Science receives Darwin's Theory ~

The theory has two main points, said Brian Richmond, curator of human origins at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City.

1) "All life on Earth is connected and related to each other," and this diversity of life is a product of
2) "modifications of populations by natural selection, where some traits were favored in and environment over others," he said.

Expounding Darwin's Theory according to Science ~

1) Natural selection can change a species in small ways, causing a population to change color or size over the course of several generations. This is called "microevolution."
2) But natural selection is also capable of much more. Given enough time and enough accumulated changes, natural selection can create entirely new species, known as "macroevolution."
CLAIM ~ (macroevloution) (<--- UGH!)
It can turn dinosaurs into birds, amphibious mammals into whales and the ancestors of apes into humans. (<--- UGH!)

Science modern addition ~
DNA ~ genes

Science additional claims ~
Mainstream scientists see no controversy. "A lot of people have deep religious beliefs and also accept evolution," Pobiner said, adding, "there can be real reconciliation."

CREATIONISM ~
the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution.


My own OPINION ~
Darwin's basic Theory that "species" change is TRUE.
Science's basic Claim that "species" change from one KIND of thing to another KIND of thing is FALSE.

Further ~
Science modernly has dissected the "change" into microevolution AND macroevolution.
Science "unofficially" has DEFINED "EVOLUTION", to include BOTH microevolution AND macroevolution.

Further ~ When a Creationist claims to believe in EVOLUTION ~ IT IS commonly received to the listener, that the Creationist IS CLAIMING belief in both microevolution AND microevolution.

My own BELIEF ~
God IS the creator of ALL things ~ and specific to this OP ~ God IS LIFE ~ and creates THINGS ~ and GIVES (imparts) those THINGS LIFE, by Him.....AND TAKES (departs) LIFE from those THINGS, by Him.

God creates "KINDS" of things. Scripturally taught is what a "KIND" of thing is.
(disregarding modern terms, ie species, ie catagories, etc.)

Solely speaking of "KINDS" of things, ARE Scripturally taught have the SAME "physical" characteristics.
Examples of characteristics ~
clovenfooted
horns
aquatic
land
aquatic and land
clean
unclean
tame
wild
strength
scales
legs / no legs
size
etc.

Do I believe "KINDS" of things that ARE the SAME "KINDS" of things EVOLVE (change and adapt) ?
Absolutely!

Do I believe "KINDS" of things that ARE NOT the SAME "KINDS" of things EVOLVE and MIX and becomes a NEW a"KIND" OF THING, as Science suggests? (BOTH microevolution AND macroevolution.)
Absolutely NOT!

Would I outright CLAIM to BELIEVE in "EVOLUTION"?
Absolutely NOT!

Why not?
Because Science has dictated it's understanding of Evolution, which is commonly accepted by the public at Large.

Do I TRUST God is the authority ON HIS CREATIONS?
Absolutely!

Do I TRUST mankind is the authority ON Gods CREATIONS?
Absolutely NOT!

Source
~ Quotes / Opinions / ~
Darwin's Theory of Evolution: Definition & Evidence

Gen.1
[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind,

Gen 1
[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind...

Gen.6
[20] Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind,

Gen.7
[14] They, and every beast after his kind,

Lev.11

1. 
   
   
   • [14] And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
   • [15] Every raven after his kind;
   • [16] And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
   • [19] And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
   • [22] Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
   • [29] These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,

1Cor.15

1. [39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

God Himself created and dictates what "KINDS" are.
Scripture itself claims Gods creations complete from the beginning.
Scripture itself claims Gods creation of the heavenly host as having been given MORE POWER than mankind.
Scripture itself claims Gods creation of angels (specifically a part of the heavenly host) was the ONE and ONLY time,
.....a particular KIND of THING (with power greater than things created out of the earth) MIXED TWO KINDS of "things"
.....AND was a most grievous ACT, and such THING thereafter was removed from the surface of earth and is currently KEPT from exercising such power again.

At no time does Scripture reveal ANYTHING created out of the earth has the POWER to CHANGE "one KIND of thing" into ANOTHER "KIND" of thing.

Sorry of the length of my post ~ However; simply giving a statement of FAITH ~ or some background information regarding Sciences' position; does not delve into the understanding of WHY one believes what they do.

 

Abiogenesis is a very improbable thing if you think about the probabilities of all the things that need to go right. But one thing to remember is that even if we were to go back in time and observe God create life, from our perspective, it could still look like a very improbable random occurrence. It is by faith in his scriptures that we believe He was initimately and purposefully behind all of creation.

One thing to remember about the Big Bang theory was that it was initially ridiculed by the astrophysics community because it was proposed by a Roman Catholic priest and sounded so much like creation ex-nihilo. To me, a singularity expanding sounds a lot like what I imagine would happen after God said "Let there be light".

Genesis 1 is definitely literally true. But literally true is not the same as "the first interpretation of the words that comes into my mind". And literally true passages can also have metaphorical language.

1 Samuel 5:11

 

Did God create everything from nothing, as "before " that event, just Him existed? And were Adam/Eve historical person created by direct act of God?

 

I believe that is so. The Big Bang theory cannot tell us anything about what was before the Big Bang.

Through scripture, I believe all of creation was a direct act of God, including things that evolved and to atheists appear random.

Maybe Adam and Eve were historical, maybe they were not. Evolution cannot tell us whether any specific species did not evolved and arrived on this planet by another means, even those that appear to have evolved for all intents and purposes. The available data suggests that humans are a physical a product of evolution. That does not exclude the possibility that God somehow supernaturally intervened differently from other species physically and/or spiritually. That is something evolution cannot say one way or another. But by faith in his scriptures I believe God created man in his image (whatever that means) that is unique to the human species.

 

One thing I want to highlight is that while we believe that God created us in his image, does that have anything to do with our physical bodies? Jesus is God in human likeness (Phil 2:7) but does that help us understand what it means to be created in God's image? If we were to say that God created us in his physical image which is Jesus Christ, then how is Jesus "made in human likeness"? Wouldn't that be circular logic? My interpretation is that being made in his image has little to no relevance to our physical bodies but has something to do with that which is intangible about us, our spirit/soul/conscience.

 

Gen 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Image ~ make a representation of the external form of.
Likeness ~ the fact or quality of being alike; resemblance.

Gen 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over...

[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Image of Adam ~ was modeled after Gods image ~ "external form"
Likeness of Adam ~ was modeled after Gods likeness ~ "ie Very good" ~ "with power OVER some things"

Gen 5
[1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
[3] And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Clue to consider ~ Between Adam's creation, in Gods image and likeness.....What happened, that Adam's son, Seth was created in Adam's likeness and image?

Phil 2
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Christ Jesus ~

Clues ~
Jesus was not introduced to the world as the Christ. He was introduced to the world as Jesus, the Son of Mary.
Jesus' being IS the form of God.

What IS the form of God?
We CAN NOT see the FORM of God.
Why?
Because everything About God IS Holy, and MUST be maintained as HOLY.
And everything About mankind IS Corrupt.

So then, HOW could anyone SEE Jesus?
Because God prepared a BODY (form), FOR WHEN Jesus came into the world.
Why? And what? did Jesus do with that prepared BODY?

Why? To COVER His HOLY body, FROM, unholy eyes of mankind.
What? Jesus TOOK that prepared body, UPON Himself.

Heb.10

1. [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

What was UNDER that "prepared body" ?

The IMAGE of GOD, that one day, saved and born again men WILL SEE.

1John.3

1. [2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

What was that prepared body's LIKENESS and Jesus' "then" LIKENESS, He took upon Himself?

Mankind (men made out of the earth) ~
Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus came with "great POWER" ? no. He came with "power", as men of the earth had.
Jesus came revealing Gods image? no. He came with "Gods image" covered.
What was Jesus' likeness LIKE? Like earthly men WHO, served God.
Anyone "specific" servant of God?
Yes. Abraham, A great servant of God.

Heb.2

1. [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

What does that mean?

When someone "takes upon them the SEED of Abraham ~
Abraham becomes their "Father". (on earth)

Why? Because of Gods PROMISE.
Gen 17
[5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Everyone WHO takes upon them the SEED of Abraham, becomes a child of Abraham.

Gal 3
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Wait ~ SEE the clue? It does not say JESUS, it says "Christ".

Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus came to earth, "without reputation".

What is "Jesus' reputation" he came to earth "without" ?

Being revealed to the world as .... "THEE CHRIST".

What is "Christ's" reputation? The GOSPEL TRUE WORD and The POWER and The WISDOM of God.

Rom.1
[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God...

1 Cor 1
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God...

And WHEN did Jesus (who IS the Truth, the Life, the Way), "GET" His reputation from Heaven to Him on earth?

All throughout the NT, when he is an adult, revealed as A PROPHET....when Jesus speaks and acts; He reveals, His Word, His Power, His Wisdom, His Gospel....<----- His Reputation.

Then JESUS challenges His Disciples about WHO JESUS IS.....and the Disciples REVEAL (saying), that JESUS "IS" the Christ.

And Jesus tells His Disciples....for them to BELIEVE THAT...."their knowledge and understanding", was NOT given them by men, but given them, BY God in Heaven.

Matt.16

1. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

Jesus came to earth, (without reputation) in a prepared body, in the likeness of men, (whose power is less than God and less than Angels).

Jesus' reputation was revealed, as Thee CHRIST, by His Words and His Acts of revealing His great POWER.

Mankind can believe the knowledge written in Scripture....however the UNDERSTANDING that it is JESUS who IS the Christ, is understanding God gives a man.

It is Abraham's SEED, every faithful believer takes upon Himself, making Abraham "their earthly father".

ie - Because of Gods Promise. Because Abraham was a Faithful Servant unto God.

BUT.... what about Abraham's SEED? WHO "ALL" has Abraham's SEED, and what does that mean?

Abram had ONE seed ~ "mankinds" NATURAL reproducing "stock" seed (ie sperm).
When a man IS faithful and submitted only unto God, such man receives, Gods "SUPERNATURAL" "Seed", that quickens
(ie births) a mans "natural spirit to a mans supernatural spirit" (ie born again).

When Abram received Gods "supernatural" Seed, (because of Abram's faithfulness to God ONLY), Abram we find becomes Abraham. (And the SAME as was for Abram....(name change)....will be also for EVERY man whose becomes born of God (ie receives the Seed of God). (name change...in the future).

Abraham....went on to become a "stock" father, of many people, VIA His "sperm" seed.
However NOT ALL of Abraham's "stock" (natural) offspring, receive the SEED of God.

Those WHO DO receive The Seed OF God; Do so, BECAUSE "they" submit in faithfulness to God ONLY.
Those WHO DO receive The Seed OF God; are accounted (according to God), as "righteous".

And the Seed of God; IS Christ.

Gal.3

1. [16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

To Abraham's SEED, WHO have the Seed of God; "they" become sons of Abraham, and HEIR to what Abraham was promised.... LAND on earth.

For Jesus or ANY man born out of the earth to have Abraham's "LAND" inheritance, they MUST BE a "rightful heir".
A "rightful heir", (according to MANS LAW), is a mans lawful son.

According to (MANS LAW), Jesus is a rightful heir to Abraham's "LAND".
According to (GODS PROMISE), any man born of the earth, reproduced from a mans seed, AND becomes a son of Abraham, (having ALSO been given the Seed of God.....such man becomes A LAWFUL Heir to Abraham's "LAND".)

Abraham's "LAND", is precisely, what Christ Jesus, WILL claim, when He returns to EARTH, to set up His EARTHLY KINGDOM. And ALL earthly men, WHO are "heirs" of Abraham's LAND inheritance, SHALL be privy to OCCUPY such LAND.

WHEN did Abram receive the Seed of God? When He became blessed.
WHAT is such giving to Abram called? Blessing.
WHO gave Abram such? King of Salem (ie Jerusalem)
WHERE did Abram receive his blessing? Mamre
HOW did Abram feel about his blessing? Glad
WHOSE DAY did Abram SEE? King of Salem
WHO said, Abraham rejoiced to SEE "His" Day? Jesus
WHO was the blessing (to Abram) OF? The most high God.
WHO was the blessing BY? The King, The Priest.
WHO is your most High Priest, Your King, you wait to SEE? And WILL you rejoice and be glad to SEE that day?

Gen 14
[13] And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre...

[14] And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

[16] And he brought back...

[18] And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

[19] And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

John.8

1. [56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

 

Jesus was BOTH fully God and Fully Human, as he was God walking around here as a man, to deny his humanity is aform of heresy!

 

IF they did not really exist, than Jesus and paul lied, or else were both ignorant, and Jesus being ignorant cannot be, as h was/is God incarnate!

 

heretic ~

1. 
   antonyms: conformist, believer
   • a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.

How did you conclude it is "generally accepted", that Jesus was a HUMAN?

Does Scripture teach you Jesus was a HUMAN?

If so....please provide the scripture, because I have looked and can not find a Scripture saying Jesus was a Human.

 

Wait a minute.
Jesus is God in the FLESH?
You just said Jesus was a HUMAN. Are you claiming God was a created HUMAN?

 

God become a Man....

 

Paul calls Him the man Christ Jesus, and also called Him the Lord Jesus, so both God and human!

 

Umm .... Thank you?

I'm sure what you wrote all makes sense to you, Happy.

I appreciate the effort put in though.

Sorry but this sounds like circular logic to me.


I do find this passage helpful

The author of Genesis is using Adam's likeness to God here as a parallel to Seth's likeness to Adam. But this phraseology of likeness and image is not repeated again for the rest of the genealogy. I'm wondering it this language is used to contrast Seth from Cain who is the main character of the previous chapter but also begat from Adam. If that is the case, it strongly suggests to me a spiritual or character element to the phrases "likeness" and "image" used here. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

My view does not necessitate that Adam and Eve were metaphorical. I am open to both interpretations and if push came to shove, I would probably lean towards historical.