There shoudl not be any real debate though, as Jesus and paul assumed they really existed! Do you hold that the scriptures are inspired by God and fully infallible than?
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Theistic evolution or non-theistic evolution
- Thread starter Robert H
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Scripture says;
Christ Jesus being is the FORM of God ~
Christ Jesus TOOK UPON HIMSELF the FORM of a servant ~
You should KNOW, Gods servants SERVE God ~
Gods servants ARE ~ 1) Angels and 2) Human men
Christ Jesus DID NOT take upon Himself the FORM of an Angel ~
Christ Jesus DID take upon Himself the FORM of a "human" man
Phil 2:
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
You should KNOW, Human men WILL "be given" the FORM in the likeness of God (when their bodies, ie FORM, are changed).
You should KNOW, WHEN human men "are given the FORM" in Gods likeness, they do NOT become God, any more than Christ Jesus became a human man, when He took upon Himself the likeness of human men.
God does not become the CREATED.
Men do not become the UNCREATED.
You should know, God and created Angels HAVE THE POWER to take upon themselves the FORM of "human" men.
It doesn't "MAKE" them human men.
It "MAKES" them "appear" AS HUMAN MEN.
It "MAKES" it possible for HUMAN MEN to see them.
You should know, when a HUMAN, takes upon themselves the LIKENESS of a tiger, a gorilla, a bear.....they do not become a tiger or gorilla or a bear.
And?
I am not opposed to calling Jesus a MAN.
Even at times Angels are called a MAN.
My opposition is calling Jesus a "HUMAN".
Human's are a specific KIND of man, that are created out of the DUST of the existing Earth.
Do you believe Jesus was created out of the Dust of the existing Earth? I don't.
It does.
While my post was long, it is really only a snippet.
Not a problem.
We in the flesh, attempt to deduce Spiritual understanding according to logic.
We in the spirit, have the opportunity to get our Spiritual understanding according to God.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. When Jesus says in John 6 that we need to eat his body and drink his blood, do we believe he is speaking metaphorically? Does a metaphorical interpretation of that passage decrease the inspiration or purity of the scriptures?
My view on scripture
What men knew, from the beginning is;
Food and Drink sustains a mans natural life.
What Jesus was revealing, IS:
His BODY, (food) and His BLOOD, (drink) goes beyond "sustaining a mans natural life", (for a number of years)
but in fact; gives a "natural life" the ability to become changed into a "spiritual life",( that LIVES forever).
The interpretation is given us by Jesus Himself.
And further reveals it requires an individual to ACCEPT His revelation according to the terms revealed.
Matt 22
[22] But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of...
The revelation is: IF a man IS able to drink of the cup that Jesus submitted to....
Such man WILL be subject to the SAME as Jesus was subjected to....ie; hate, ridicule, threats, attack, Crucifixion.
AND....the Holy Spirit within them....AND spiritual life FOREVER with the Lord
It does if you are taking it out of context and misapplying it in a way the author did not intend to.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
It would be great if we could ask the authors their original intent, but good hermeneutics is our proxy given our limitations. But even if we could and found out that a metaphorical or literal interpretation of a passage was wrong, that does not impact the inspiration of scripture. It just means that interpretation was wrong.
One of the most powerful lessons in Scripture IS;
To know WHO IS the author.
To know WHO IS the authority over ALL things.
To know He WHO is the author and authority, is He WHO knows ALL things, AND....
....is most WILLING to GIVE "His" (understanding of Scripture) TO....
....those WHO belong to Him....and SEEK / ASK Him for His (understanding of Scripture).
1Cor.14
- [33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
1Pet.3
- [22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
John 16
[30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Matt.16
- [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
- [45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
One of the most powerful lessons in Scripture IS;
To know WHO IS the author.
To know WHO IS the authority over ALL things.
To know He WHO is the author and authority, is He WHO knows ALL things, AND....
....is most WILLING to GIVE "His" (understanding of Scripture) TO....
....those WHO belong to Him....and SEEK / ASK Him for His (understanding of Scripture).
1Cor.14
Heb.12
- [33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
1Pet.3
- [22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
John 16
[30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Matt.16
Luke.24
- [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
- [45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...
Absolutely, prayer and an openness to the guidance of the Holy Spirit should be a vital part of any good hermeneutical approach to God's words. I was referring to the human authors who also played an important role.
What we know Historically ~
To be specific to the "authors" who actually did the Script writing ~
The Words ~ come from God ~ TO a faithful man
The Words ~ given the faithful man are then spoken
The Scribes ~ hear the Words and "write the words down"
The Recorders ~ assemble the Scribes "written words" into scrolls / books
The Priests ~ were charged with KEEPING the scrolls / books protected
What we know IS ~
Copies of the "books" were made and distributed among the Hebrews
Knowledge given and Text of the "books" were used to repeat in the ears of the younger generations.
At times "books" were discovered and burned / destroyed
Destroyed "books" were directed to be rewritten from memory.
Also ~
Jews were often in captivity, oppressed and to the best of their ability attempted to hide their books.
Their "hidden" books, were often, hidden in places, they themselves had no immediate access to.
Modern times ~
Books have been found.
Scholars attempt to painstakingly determine the text of ancient language into modern text.
However ~ nothing has changed regarding the source (God). In that He (Christ) is the Word of God, and has always been, and still IS the Teacher.
Just saying ~
What we know is ~ God is the Source of His own Word.
Regardless of How or When He has distributed His own Word....and the corruption within mankind that has attempted to suppress Gods Word.... such corruption will NOT supersede Gods desire for eager men to KNOW and UNDERSTAND His own Word. <---> which was my point....of going to and trusting the Source, regardless of how confusing it may seem, WHEN "men" are in charge of handling and distributing Gods Word.
And the beauty is; We (the faithful) are provided a way, to access THEE TEACHER, personally, VIA, our "born again" spirit to His Spirit. And He IS most willing to oblige us in giving us His Wisdom and His Understanding of Scripture.
Jesus was just as much Human as you or me, save that he had NO sin nature like us!
The scriptures were inspired fully by the Holy spirit, correct?
There are a lot more differences between Jesus and Human men, then "He did not Sin".
Jesus observed the Earth being created. Humans did not.
Humans come from the dust of the Earth. Jesus is the Lord who, came out from God, in heaven, to earth.
Humans were created. Jesus was not.
Humans have blood. Jesus had blood. It was not the SAME Kind of Blood.
Humans have flesh. Jesus had flesh. It was not the SAME Kind of Flesh.
Humans are born of blood and the will of the flesh. Jesus was not.
Human blood can not justify you or save you or forgive you or redeem you. Jesus' Blood can.
God does not NEED to BE a HUMAN to appear AS A Human....(or an Angel) !
God does not NEED to BE a HUMAN to KNOW the very HUMAN NATURE, God created mankind with having !
Maybe your Lord is a Human man.
However my Lord is everlasting and did not come forth out of a created earth, (like ALL HUMAN MEN DO.)
Jesus was and still is fully human, to deny that he became a real Human denies the Incarnation, and is heresy!
I see you did not address points I made, that reveal great differences between HUMAN men and the man called Jesus.
It is not heresy to say Jesus was not Human. It is heresy to deny Jesus came in the Flesh, which is nothing I have said.
You expand the Scripture. Scripture says Jesus was a man. Scripture NEVER says Jesus was a HUMAN man.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Seems like you are advocating a form of Docetism by making an artificial distinction between man and human which exists in English but not in Greek.
1 Tim 2:5
Both the words humanity and man in this verse are the same Greek root word, anthopos which is plural in the first case and singular in the second.
1 Timothy 2:5 Interlinear: for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
Having a good understanding of the original and receptor languages is also important for good hermaneutics.
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Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
No.
According to Scripture; The distinction is between;
A MAN (form) who is a created human.
AND
A MAN (form) who is a created spirit.
AND
A MAN (form) who is thee (not created) Spirit of God.
Would you agree;
A MAN (form) who is human;
is a "created" "form" out of Dust of the Earth?
..............Gen 2 [7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
A MAN (form) who is spirit;
is a "created" "form" and from Heaven?
..............Gen.2 [1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
A MAN (form) who is God;
...............EX 15 [3] The LORD is a man of war
...............Phil 2 [5] Christ Jesus:
...............Phil 2 [6] Who, being in the form of God,
is Spirit?
..............John 4: [24] God is a Spirit:
"is not a created" "form"?
...............Pss 90 [2] ...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
is ALL places?
...............Jer 23: [24] Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Heaven is His "created" Throne?
................Gen 1 [1] In the beginning God created the heaven
................Isa 66 [1] Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne
Scripture is clear;
Mankind (a human) has a FORM, (called man).
God (Spirit) has a FORM, (called Man).
Men of the earth (ie humans) were "created" in the likeness and image of God.
Humans reproduce humans.
God is everlasting and DOES NOT, CAN NOT reproduce gods.
There IS a distinction, and it is not artificial.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but nothing you wrote or the verses you quote show any clarity towards what you are saying. I'm sure it makes sense in your mind but I'm afraid it stops there.
It is great that you are passionate about scripture but I suggest some study in the field of biblical hermeneutics which is the study of how to interpret scripture in a way that is based on the text itself and not our preconceived understandings or wild ideas that have no basis in the words that we are reading. Without the framework of biblical hermeneutics, anyone can make the bible say almost anything they want by doing what you are doing, taking bits and pieces of verses out of their context and making connections between completely unrelated passages and inserting meaning that isn't actually there.
The text book I've used in hermeneutics is Introduction to Biblical Hermeneutics by Klein, Blomberg and Hubbard.
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