Theodicy

[Skandelon]

The same way that darkness causes wrecks and carnage while being nothing itself.

Yet, there is darkness every night and we don't have bus crashes nightly. My point is that the condition of darkness doesn't determine there will certainly be a wreck, it only makes it more likely. There is still the choice of the driver and other factors, which your analogy overlooks.

So, if the absence of good necessarily causes Satan to intend evil, then God's action of removing all goodness (which scripture never indicates He does) from Satan was the direct cause of the intent, right? If not, why not?

 

[Winman]

Luke is attempting to compare evil to inanimate objects such as darkness so that God is not the author of evil.

Inanimate objects cannot do evil. Darkness cannot do evil. A rock cannot do evil. For anything to do evil it must have will or volition.

Luke wants to argue that God is micromanaging every sub-atomic particle in the universe. Now that is true to an extent. The sun, moon, stars and planets are set in their orbits by God and cannot deviate unless he wills. So, it is very true that God is micromanaging the physical world.

But God has given free will to the angels and men. This is so obvious it is hard to believe anyone could dispute it. Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Why? Obviously God's will is not always being done on earth or such a prayer would be illogical.

Men can invent evil in their own minds.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

When Satan rebelled against God, this rebellion originated in his own mind and will, it was his own invention.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The devil actually has much power. When God allowed Satan to vex Job, he did not tell Satan what to do. And we see Satan caused a great wind to collapse the house of his eldest son, killing all his children.

Job 1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Has anyone ever noticed that the scriptures say Jesus "rebuked" the wind?

Mark 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

This was no minor storm, Peter and several other of the disciples were experienced fishermen, yet they were afraid for their life.

This storm was not caused by God, Jesus would not rebuke his own Father. I believe this storm was caused by Satan, just as the great wind that killed Job's children, who might have been actively trying to drown Jesus and the other disciples. Foolish of course, but this does not stop Satan from actively trying. When he tempted Jesus to jump off the temple, he was trying to trick Jesus into killing himself.

So, while God certainly has control over the physical world, the scriptures show Satan has some power over natural phenomena.

Evil is real, it is not nothing like an inanimate object. The devil has real intent, he is activiely fighting God.

 

[preacher4truth]

God made Satan, knowing full well, and equipping him with the ability to do all the evil he has done in this world, and in the heavens, and He went forward with His plan. Only God can do this, and remain Holy and Just, as His motives are always for the good, and will always accomplish His purposes. Romans 8:28 is applicable here, as God can and wills to allow even evil to happen to His own, yet in this the true believers ultimately still tust Him, akin to Jobs faith and attitude.

The origin of evil within Satan was put there with all of its ability and potential by God Himself. Thus skans little question is not the least bit "pesky", it's just another question of his which is handily dismantled. He comes across as if he's discovered an "aha!!" moment which has confounded and proven some Calvinist premise as incorrect. Not even close to happening. :wavey:

Keep digging.

 

[Luke2427]

Yet, there is darkness every night and we don't have bus crashes nightly. My point is that the condition of darkness doesn't determine there will certainly be a wreck, it only makes it more likely. There is still the choice of the driver and other factors, which your analogy overlooks.

So, if the absence of good necessarily causes Satan to intend evil, then God's action of removing all goodness (which scripture never indicates He does) from Satan was the direct cause of the intent, right? If not, why not?

It does not overlook this. This is not a factor. We are speaking of the origin and nature of evil.

Absenting oneself from a situation and thus creating a vacuum, which vaccum then causes something to happen, CANNOT be a DIRECT cause of that which happens.

The vacuum is what caused it.

You caused the vacuum.

Therefore, you are the FIRST or ULTIMATE or REMOTE cause, but there is no logical WAY that you are yourself the DIRECT cause.

You have brought to pass what happens by means of secondary causes.

That is biblical theology concerning hamartiology.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke is attempting to compare evil to inanimate objects such as darkness so that God is not the author of evil.

Inanimate objects cannot do evil. Darkness cannot do evil. A rock cannot do evil. For anything to do evil it must have will or volition.

Luke wants to argue that God is micromanaging every sub-atomic particle in the universe. Now that is true to an extent. The sun, moon, stars and planets are set in their orbits by God and cannot deviate unless he wills. So, it is very true that God is micromanaging the physical world.

But God has given free will to the angels and men. This is so obvious it is hard to believe anyone could dispute it. Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Why? Obviously God's will is not always being done on earth or such a prayer would be illogical.

Men can invent evil in their own minds.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

When Satan rebelled against God, this rebellion originated in his own mind and will, it was his own invention.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The devil actually has much power. When God allowed Satan to vex Job, he did not tell Satan what to do. And we see Satan caused a great whirlwind to collapse the house of his eldest son, killing all his children.

Job 1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Has anyone ever noticed that the scriptures say Jesus "rebuked" the wind?

Mark 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

This was no minor storm, Peter and several other of the disciples were experienced fishermen, yet they were afraid for their life.

This storm was not caused by God, Jesus would not rebuke his own Father. I believe this storm was caused by Satan, just as the great wind that killed Job's children, who might have been actively trying to drown Jesus and the other disciples. Foolish of course, but this does not stop Satan from actively trying. When he tempted Jesus to jump off the temple, he was trying to trick Jesus into killing himself.

So, while God certainly has control over the physical world, the scriptures show Satan has some power over natural phenomena.

Evil is real, it is not nothing like an inanimate object. The devil has real intent, he is activiely fighting God.

Madness.

And I guarantee you that neither Skandelon nor any other educated man will put his stamp of approval on all of these words.

 

[Skandelon]

thus creating a vacuum, which vaccum then causes something to happen...

The vacuum is what caused it.

Stop here.

Nothingness (which is what a vacuum is) caused it? Really? You want to stick with that?

 

[Luke2427]

Stop here.

Nothingness (which is what a vacuum is) caused it? Really? You want to stick with that?

Yes, a vacuum that is the result of something absenting itself from that place and the resulting ABSENCE or vacuum created by the absenting- that is the vacuum that I stick with.

Darkness is nothing but the resultant absence or vacating of light that causes terrible things to things that ARE things.

Cold is nothing but the resultant absence or vacating of heat that causes terrible things to things that ARE actual things.

Death is nothing but the resultant absence or vacating of life which causes terrible things to things that are ACTUAL things.

And once again, I could go on and on.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, a vacuum that is the result of something absenting itself from that place and the resulting ABSENCE or vacuum created by the absenting- that is the vacuum that I stick with.

So, if I create an angel and then create a vacuum of nothingness surrounding that angel it will necessarily cause him to intend to do evil?

Is that what you are saying?

That nothing (a vacuum) caused something (intent)?

 

[Winman]

God made Satan, knowing full well, and equipping him with the ability to do all the evil he has done in this world, and in the heavens, adn He went forward with His plan. Only God can do this, and remain Holy and Just, as His motives are always for the good, and will always accomplish His purposes. Romans 8:28 is applicable here, as God can and wills to allow even evil to happen to His own, yet in this the true believers ultimately still tust Him, akin to Jobs faith and attitude.

The origin of evil within Satan was put there with all of its ability and potential by God Himself. Thus skans little question is not the least bit "pesky", it's just another question of his which is handily dismantled. He comes across as if he's discovered an "aha!!" moment which has confounded and proven some Calvinist premise as incorrect. Not even close to happening. :wavey:

Keep digging.

God gave the angels and men free will because it would be immoral to do otherwise. You cannot go out and grab a woman off the streets and force her to be your wife. That is evil, it is criminal.

But giving the angels and men free will makes sin necessary. It cannot be avoided. Free will is actually a blessing, it gives man the opportunity of loving God of his own free will. But this same free will allows men to rebel against and hate God if he so chooses. But sin is necessary, it cannot be avoided.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

God does not desire or condone sin whatsoever. But free will makes sin necessary, it cannot be avoided. Jesus said offences (sin) MUST NEEDS BE. That means NECESSARY.

But notice that Jesus said offences come from men. He said,

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

God does not cause sin. Sin orginates in the man.

This is very simple to understand, the problem is that Calvinism teaches men do not have free will. So, Calvinists must do mental gymnastics to explain sin when it is very simply explained throughout the scriptures. When you realize that men have free will, all these difficulties will disappear immediately.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

Men have their own free will, God himself said so. And... in this instance it is pertaining to worshipping God, something that Calvinism says is impossible. But the scriptures contradict this false teaching.

 

[Winman]

Yes, a vacuum that is the result of something absenting itself from that place and the resulting ABSENCE or vacuum created by the absenting- that is the vacuum that I stick with.

Darkness is nothing but the resultant absence or vacating of light that causes terrible things to things that ARE things.

Cold is nothing but the resultant absence or vacating of heat that causes terrible things to things that ARE actual things.

Death is nothing but the resultant absence or vacating of life which causes terrible things to things that are ACTUAL things.

And once again, I could go on and on.

You could go on and on, and you would be going on and on in error.

Darkness cannot do evil, cold cannot do evil, a vacuum cannot do evil. Evil requires intent. Only a being with a free will can do evil. You can compare man to inanimate objects all day, it is a ridiculous argument. Men can think, men can reason, men have will and volition, men have motive. Inanimate objects have none of these.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

One of Calvinism's favorite verses, I know you know this one. What does it say about Esau and Jacob? It says they had done neither good or evil. This shows that evil is something you do. If anyone could be said to be doing nothing, an undeveloped baby in his mother's womb would qualify. And that is exactly the state of development Esau and Jacob were in when this was said of them. They had done neither good or evil. So, evil is not a lack of good, evil is something real and tangible, something done in rebellion and contention to God.

And so much for original sin.

 

[Luke2427]

You could go on and on, and you would be going on and on in error.

Darkness cannot do evil, cold cannot do evil, a vacuum cannot do evil. Evil requires intent. Only a being with a free will can do evil. You can compare man to inanimate objects all day, it is a ridiculous argument. Men can think, men can reason, men have will and volition, men have motive. Inanimate objects have none of these.

Evil cannot do evil- Evil is evil.

Darkness cannot do darkness- darkness is darkness.

Cold cannot do cold- cold is cold.

Death cannot do death- death is death.

Evil is to good as cold is to heat.

Evil is to good as death is to life.

Evil is to good as darkness is to light.

Got it now?

 

[preacher4truth]

God gave the angels and men free will because it would be immoral to do otherwise. You cannot go out and grab a woman off the streets and force her to be your wife. That is evil, it is criminal.

Sounds sweet like some culturalized American play on broadway to me. However you came up with your ad lib illustration is beyond me and proves nothing, nor does it lend itself to the former thought above of yours, which is also unfounded and it fails to tie into what you've said in the slightest.

No, He certainly did not give them freewill. In fact, all men outside of Christ are not free in any sense, thus what Jesus said in John 8, that we are enslaved to sin, not free, nor living in freedom as you errantly suggest, and that His truth will make us free, since we being enslaved aren't free. You're blending western culture with Scripture, societal views of man with Scripture, secular worldviews, and other fallacies with Scriptures, and this is where most of your error comes from.

I also know you have a view of man that differs from how God says He views lost man. God says things concerning lost man that you want to disregard such as what Romans 3, Romans 8, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 Peter, Titus &c tell us about the indictment on man and how hostile, lost, dark, filled with enmity, hatred &c, but you instead look at man in your own way with proof-texts taken out of context and completely misunderstood by you, and not interpreted within light of dogma. This is another example of how you fall into erroneous conclusions. It's not about how you view yourself, or how anyone views self, it's how God views you, and others that counts, and He says we are not free and that we are not good, or righteous, or seeking Him. No one can do any of these things without enabling grace.

 

[Van]

Reply to Benjamin

The Omnibenevolent Nature of God goes to show "His" Righteous Judgment over His creatures. Very biblical: Deut 32:4.

The problem with your premise is that God's righteous judgment over His creations shows His benevolent nature, but does not address how someone on the receiving end of His wrath would perceive the action. They might call evil what Deuteronomy 32:4 says is good. Good and Evil are in the eye of the beholder.

Please understand, I am not saying God is not good. I am saying is if you are on the receiving end of disaster, you will think the disaster is bad or evil. But that natural occurrence, say a tornado, is part of God's "good" creation.

But there is another aspect to "the problem of evil" and that is God allowing people to make choices that result in evil. Here we must consider God's purpose in creating mankind with the capacity of autonomous choice. We were created to glorify God, and when we turn from our way to God's way by our autonomous choice, we bring glory to God, fulfilling God's purpose of creation. Now if God did not allow "autonomous choice" we would not bring glory to God when we made that choice. Therefore, from God's perspective, our choices are "good" in that He would not have created us without that capacity. And God is righteous in His judgment, and so those who receive justice in the afterlife will receive perfect punishment for those "evil" choices in the eyes of God.

 

[Luke2427]

So, if I create an angel and then create a vacuum of nothingness surrounding that angel it will necessarily cause him to intend to do evil?

Is that what you are saying?

That nothing (a vacuum) caused something (intent)?

It depends on of what the vacuum is the result.

If it is a vacuum of light- the angel will be dark. In other words if God removes from the angel light- the angel will abide in darkness.

If it is a vacuum of heat- the angel will be cold. In other words if God removes from the angel heat- the angel will abide in cold.

If it is a vacuum of moisture- the angel will be desicated. In other words if God removes from the angel moisture- the angel will abide in dryness.

If it is a vacuum of moral good- the angel will be evil. In other words if God removes from the angel moral good- the angel will abide in evil.

 

[quantumfaith]

Newsflash, darkness does not cause wrecks, stupid people driving in the dark without headlights are the immediate,proximate and remote cause of the accident. Stupid people who chose to foolishly drive in the dark.

 

[Skandelon]

If it is a vacuum of moral good- the angel will be evil. In other words if God removes from the angel moral good- the angel will abide in evil.

So, suppose I create a robot and remove all good from it thus DIRECTLY causing it to want to kill the next person it sees. How am I not culpable for that?

Or, if you don't like that analogy. Suppose I have a child and give him a drug removing all desire to do right thus causing him to lie, cheat, hate and kill? How am I not culpable for that?

You have God as the direct cause because he is the creator of the agent who necessarily will do evil in a vacuum and the creator of the vacuum in which the agent lives. What else is there on which to base culpability except God?

 

[Skandelon]

Plus, all you have told us is the condition in which the evil intent originated. It doesn't tell us who originated the intent. I suppose you'd say that Satan must have something to do with it, right?

So, Satan while in a vacuum originated the intent to do evil, is that right?

 

[preacher4truth]

So, suppose I create a robot and remove all good from it thus DIRECTLY causing it to want to kill the next person it sees. How am I not culpable for that?

Or, if you don't like that analogy. Suppose I have a child and give him a drug removing all desire to do right thus causing him to lie, cheat, hate and kill? How am I not culpable for that?

You have God as the direct cause because he is the creator of the agent who necessarily will do evil in a vacuum and the creator of the vacuum in which the agent lives. What else is there on which to base culpability except God?

Skan, you are looking at this through human reason. God has no impure thoughts or motives and can and has determined all of these things yet remains Himself Holy. Job understood these things and accepted them. It may blow our minds, and we may say "how", "why" and whatever, but nonetheless it is true, and either we trust Him in all of it, or we do not.

 

[quantumfaith]

Skan, you are looking at this through human reason. God has no impure thoughts or motives and can and has determined all of these things yet remains Himself Holy. Job understood these things and accepted them. It may blow our minds, and we may say "how", "why" and whatever, but nonetheless it is true, and either we trust Him in all of it, or we do not.

And now I applaud you for this way in which you "disagreed" with a fellow believer. Kudos

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am going to operate off of two distinct premises I believe to be correct....tell me if I'm off base.

1. He is the Most Holy Sovereign God who cannot do wrong, and He cannot be above the law or rule of principle of His own perfect nature or character, which is a part of Himself, and is infinite light (or truth and holiness) and love.

2. It not only stains the holiness, but it also belittles the wisdom and the power of God to say that He can govern His creatures only by instigating and compelling them to sin; it represents Him as a mere manipulator, instead of an incomparable Sovereign, who perfectly foresees and perfectly controls even their own abominable wickedness to the manifestation of His glory.

Am I in the ballpark?