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Theology and The Future of the SBC
- Thread starter Thousand Hills
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Individual congregations.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Thanks!:thumbs:
Consider the OT saints, they gained approval by faith (Hebrews 11:1-2) before Christ died and shed His blood. Now everyone placed in Christ (and thus made alive together with Christ) was baptized into His death (Romans 6:3.) So the OT Saints either engaged in time travel, or they gained approval through faith before they were spiritually baptized into Christ's death, which occurred after they had died and been taken to Abraham's bosom.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Jesus referred the place of comfort, Luke 16:22 as Abraham's bosom. I do not think the Bible tells us what it was called before Abraham was taken to that place. Whatever its name, it held those who by faith had gained approval.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Dr. Eric Hankins wrote a paper expressing the view that the way forward, since Calvinism and traditional Arminianism are stalemated, is to adopt the view that individuals are not elected for salvation, and therefore the only election for salvation is corporate. I think this view comes close the view often expressed by Skandelon.
In the paper [ link here: http://baptistcenter.net/journals/JBTM_8-1_Spring_2011.pdf] the Doctor offers up a defense of the "only corporate, and no individual" election for salvation.
Individuals become affiliated with the corporately elected group when "they responded faithfully to the covenant that had been offered to the whole nation." He did not address who (God or man) decided the response was sufficient for God's purpose. Thus, reading between the lines, God did not credit their faith as righteousness, and set them apart in Abraham's bosom. He did acknowledge (footnote 1) that God could unilaterally remove a person whose faith was found wanting.
Also Dr. Hankins asserts (with Klein) that "there is not a single verse or overarching tendency in the Scriptures in support of the idea that God chooses individuals for salvation." No mention of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which teaches we are chosen through faith. Obviously, only an individual would be in view.
In the paper [ link here: http://baptistcenter.net/journals/JBTM_8-1_Spring_2011.pdf] the Doctor offers up a defense of the "only corporate, and no individual" election for salvation.
Individuals become affiliated with the corporately elected group when "they responded faithfully to the covenant that had been offered to the whole nation." He did not address who (God or man) decided the response was sufficient for God's purpose. Thus, reading between the lines, God did not credit their faith as righteousness, and set them apart in Abraham's bosom. He did acknowledge (footnote 1) that God could unilaterally remove a person whose faith was found wanting.
Also Dr. Hankins asserts (with Klein) that "there is not a single verse or overarching tendency in the Scriptures in support of the idea that God chooses individuals for salvation." No mention of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which teaches we are chosen through faith. Obviously, only an individual would be in view.
Rebuttal
Not sure what point you are making, so it would be unwise to assert you are teaching all the spirits of all who die go to God in heaven. Universalism clearly is not being taught.
Next, lets look at the tense, does the verse say they return, i.e. immediately, or that the spirit will return to God, at some point after death? The verse seems ambiguous, with some translations presenting will or shall return, with others presenting the idea more of a done deal. If those going to Hades can be classified as those who will return (resurrection of the lost) then why not give the same understanding to those sent to Abraham's bosom.
Not sure what point you are making, so it would be unwise to assert you are teaching all the spirits of all who die go to God in heaven. Universalism clearly is not being taught.
Next, lets look at the tense, does the verse say they return, i.e. immediately, or that the spirit will return to God, at some point after death? The verse seems ambiguous, with some translations presenting will or shall return, with others presenting the idea more of a done deal. If those going to Hades can be classified as those who will return (resurrection of the lost) then why not give the same understanding to those sent to Abraham's bosom.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
God saves people as individuals and He choses those for salvation in Jesus Christ as individuals. Where in Scripture does it say God elects people to salvation as a group?
The Children of Israel were chosen as a group but that was not to Salvation but as a vehicle to bring Jesus Christ into the world.
Yes, you agree with scripture (God saves people as individuals) but does God choose people for salvation as individuals? Dr. Hankins say no scripture supports that view. I cited 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Can you cite another?
And Jesus brought salvation to the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." (Hebrews 8:8)
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:28-30
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
I realize that one could argue the "them" is corporate election. But God foreknows us as individuals, calls us as individuals, saves us as individuals, justifies us as individuals, and glorifies us as individuals!
Jesus brought salvation to the elect!
Close but no cigar
Your passage, Romans 8:28-30, certainly teaches individual salvation, for we are called according to His purpose individually.
Your assertion, God foreknows us as individuals, seems without support. God could foreknow the target group of His redemption plan collectively, and still place individuals who love God into Christ individually. But you are spot on that God calls us individually, puts us in Christ individually based on our faith, justifies us individually as we undergo the circumcision of Christ, and spiritually glorifies us individually.
Your passage, Romans 8:28-30, certainly teaches individual salvation, for we are called according to His purpose individually.
Your assertion, God foreknows us as individuals, seems without support. God could foreknow the target group of His redemption plan collectively, and still place individuals who love God into Christ individually. But you are spot on that God calls us individually, puts us in Christ individually based on our faith, justifies us individually as we undergo the circumcision of Christ, and spiritually glorifies us individually.
You asked where in scripture does it say salvation was for groups, like the house of Israel and the house of Judah. I provided Hebrews 8:8. The key is to see that only individuals are placed into Christ, i.e. into salvation. But the redemption plan included Jews (first) then Gentiles, two groups united into one in Christ Jesus.
Denying the corporate election aspects of God's redemption plan does not move the ball, and neither does denying the individual election aspects of God's redemption plan.
Denying the corporate election aspects of God's redemption plan does not move the ball, and neither does denying the individual election aspects of God's redemption plan.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by OldRegular
Romans 8:28-30
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
God foreknew ALL mankind - but in so doing He also foreknows the choices of all mankind - including the choices of the saints.
Even though "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1 - He "Foreknew that choice". He has absolute foreknowledge.
I would argue that God does know individuals - in fact ALL of mankind from first to last - and He even foreknows the choices of those who will one day be saints. -- as well as foreknowing the choices of the wicked.
in Christ,
Bob
I know you will reject this, but the fact is "foreknew" has a very different meaning than "knowing the future exhaustively" the Calvinist redefinition.
Foreknew simply is a translation of a Greek word meaning to know beforehand. The idea is that when some knowledge formulated or leaned in the past is being utilized in the present, then that action is according to foreknowledge. In our passage, Romans 8:28-30, the idea is God formulated His redemption plan before the foundation of the world, and thus everyone individually redeemed was foreknown collectively as the target group of His redemption plan.
God's redemption plan had these features, He would redeem those who trust in Christ, by spiritually placing them in Christ where they are regenerated, made alive, and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. God carries out this plan as follows, "He called them (according to His purpose, i.e. His redemption plan) He justified them, and He glorified them.
Foreknew simply is a translation of a Greek word meaning to know beforehand. The idea is that when some knowledge formulated or leaned in the past is being utilized in the present, then that action is according to foreknowledge. In our passage, Romans 8:28-30, the idea is God formulated His redemption plan before the foundation of the world, and thus everyone individually redeemed was foreknown collectively as the target group of His redemption plan.
God's redemption plan had these features, He would redeem those who trust in Christ, by spiritually placing them in Christ where they are regenerated, made alive, and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. God carries out this plan as follows, "He called them (according to His purpose, i.e. His redemption plan) He justified them, and He glorified them.
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Jacob_Elliott
New Member
God predestining us according to a future decision we make is salvation by works
If you were implying that
preacher4truth
Active Member
and making salvation a reward instead of a gift.
1) Can you cite a single Calvinist author who believes that foreknowledge merely means...
What Calvinism does is apply the modern dictionary meaning of foreknowledge (knowledge of the future) and claim that as the actual meaning of the Greek words translated as foreknow and its variants including foreknowledge. Many but not all also add in the view that "know" means intimate knowledge (i.e. a loving relationship) and thus to foreknow is to fore-love. This is a back door argument for individual election before time because an intimate relationship would be with an individual. It is twaddle.L. Boettner said:
2) The actual meaning is to refer to prior knowledge being utilized in the present, i.e. Christ was killed according to the foreknowledge of God. Or Christ was foreknown as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. Knowledge acquired or formulated beforehand being used in the present is the actual biblical meaning.
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