There are Some Who Believe That a Sinner Does Nothing to be Saved

[TCassidy]

And he is Reformed so no bias for what I say

He is most definitely NOT reformed. He is a Particular Baptist, believing in Particular Redemption.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

He is most definitely NOT reformed. He is a Particular Baptist, believing in Particular Redemption.

He is not? interesting. A Church I sometimes attend is PR, and yet Reformed. all these labels are too confusing

 

[Yeshua1]

The Death of Jesus Christ is not "actual" and it did not actually save anyone, but "potential", in that it is OFFERED to the entire human race.

"Whom God has offered* to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus" (Romans 3:25-26)

* προτίθημι, "offered or provided" (J H Moulton and G Milligan, Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament)

Did the lord die so that a real salvation would come, or that just a potential for salvation came?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Did the lord die so that a real salvation would come, or that just a potential for salvation came?

you speak a foreign language here, kindly give interpretation

 

[Yeshua1]

you speak a foreign language here, kindly give interpretation

God either meant that the death of Jesus brought back a selected elected out group from sinful humanity, or else he intended to make it possible to save all, but no guarantee that any would get saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Death of Jesus Christ is not "actual" and it did not actually save anyone, but "potential", in that it is OFFERED to the entire human race.

"Whom God has offered* to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus" (Romans 3:25-26)

* προτίθημι, "offered or provided" (J H Moulton and G Milligan, Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament)

Was the death of Jesus a propitiation for all sinners than?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

God either meant that the death of Jesus brought back a selected elected out group from sinful humanity, or else he intended to make it possible to save all, but no guarantee that any would get saved!

"he intended to make it possible to save all"

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Was the death of Jesus a propitiation for all sinners than?

yes, 1 John 2:2 says so

 

[Yeshua1]

"he intended to make it possible to save all"

Even though He knew that according to you, it was a real possibility that none could be?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Even though He knew that according to you, it was a real possibility that none could be?

I never said that!

 

[Yeshua1]

I never said that!

My mistake, as I thought that you held to real free will salvation?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

My mistake, as I thought that you held to real free will salvation?

meaning what?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Saved-By-Grace I am a quasi-Arminian. One of those people who believes He invites all, most go to hell, but cannot fathom the process by which we are in fact saved. Because I am still trying to understand it from the bible. I say that to give you the sense I am not being antagonistic.

That said, it seems this would have been a far better thread over in the Arminianism vs Calvinism debate forum. Also, as I said earlier, it seems this has been very divisive since all that has been done is to get the Particular Baptists riled up. I hope the reason for discourse is not to argue and further divide people we accept as brothers, sisters, mothers, and elders. But to come to a deeper understanding of your own position, and an understanding of where others that read the Word like us have staked their position and why.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Saved-By-Grace I am a quasi-Arminian. One of those people who believes He invites all, most go to hell, but cannot fathom the process by which we are in fact saved. Because I am still trying to understand it from the bible. I say that to give you the sense I am not being antagonistic.

That said, it seems this would have been a far better thread over in the Arminianism vs Calvinism debate forum. Also, as I said earlier, it seems this has been very divisive since all that has been done is to get the Particular Baptists riled up. I hope the reason for discourse is not to argue and further divide people we accept as brothers, sisters, mothers, and elders. But to come to a deeper understanding of your own position, and an understanding of where others that read the Word like us have staked their position and why.

The OP is about "repentance" which has nothing to do with the Arminianism vs Calvinism debate, which it has been hijacked into! I am a firm believer that we should all be able to defend from the Word what we believe, and do so with love, and not with the purpose of winning an argument. There are some who are so entrenched in their theology, that even when they are shown from the Word to be in error, will still insist they are right. This is true of both sides.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The OP is about "repentance" which has nothing to do with the Arminianism vs Calvinism debate, which it has been hijacked into! I am a firm believer that we should all be able to defend from the Word what we believe, and do so with love, and not with the purpose of winning an argument. There are some who are so entrenched in their theology, that even when they are shown from the Word to be in error, will still insist they are right. This is true of both sides.

OK, I can understand that. Yes this was about OSAS first, so yes I see now why this thread could be in this forum. I just felt I needed to offer a word of correction in case you were doing the wrong thing. I know I have before on this forum. Thank you.

 

[Yeshua1]

meaning what?

Non Calvinistic, holding to the sinner still has the capability to freely respond and trust in jesus to get saved!

 

[Calminian]

see #24 which is to you!

Here is the entire post #24. The word redemption is never used of Calvin in this quote. It would appear you're being dishonest, at this point. You claimed Calvin accepted universal redemption. I doubt it. It looks like you made this up.

And I'd really like you to define redemption so I can understand how you are using it.

Calvin on John 3:16

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

Note Calvin's non-calvinistic language!

Mark 14:24,

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"

Colossians 1:14

"He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated"

What think ye?

 

[Iconoclast]

Saved-By-Grace,

Those who oppose truth as you do, get exposed because of the false theological ideas you entertain....it leads to profane ideas such as you express here

The Death of Jesus Christ is not "actual" and it did not actually save anyone,

what a horrible anti scriptural statement....

lk1:
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

but "potential", in that it is OFFERED to the entire human race.

No...it is quite actual
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

You are in way over your head...find your way back to the shallow end of the pool, read and learn before trying again.

 

[agedman]

In John 12:40 we read, "He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their hearts; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I should heal them"

The quotation of Is. 6:10 in Jn. 12:40 differs from its quotation in Mt. 13:14-15. In Matthew the quotation agrees with the LXX in registering the verbs in the third person plural of the Indicative mode, so that it is the people themselves who perform the actions named; the MT has the verbs in the second person singular of the Imperative mode, so that the prophet is commanded to perform the actions named; in John, by use of third person singular of the Indicative mode, the actions are referred to God.

Look at Acts 28:27, "For the heart of this people is stubborn, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them"

Are you actually discrediting the statement in John?

Do you not know that of all writers, John was always extremely specific in word choice?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Here is the entire post #24. The word redemption is never used of Calvin in this quote. It would appear you're being dishonest, at this point. You claimed Calvin accepted universal redemption. I doubt it. It looks like you made this up.

And I'd really like you to define redemption so I can understand how you are using it.

so what do you think Colossians is about? Do you not see the word "redemption" there, and what Calvin says? Before you accuse anyone of being dishonest, get your facts right!

ἀπολύτρωσις, used in this passage, with the meaning, "redemption by payment of ransom, deliverance" (Liddell and Scott, Geek lexicon); "of deliverance thr. Christ from evil and the consequences of sin" (G Abbott-Smith); "everywhere in the N. T. metaphorically, viz. deliverance effected through the death of Christ from the retributive wrath of a holy God and the merited penalty of sin" (J H Thayer)