There are Some Who Believe That a Sinner Does Nothing to be Saved

[Saved-By-Grace]

Are you actually discrediting the statement in John?

Do you not know that of all writers, John was always extremely specific in word choice?

why do you make rather foolish remarks? If you cannot understand what I have written, then its best you don't respond, rather than accuse of something wrongly!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Saved-By-Grace,

Those who oppose truth as you do, get exposed because of the false theological ideas you entertain....it leads to profane ideas such as you express here
what a horrible anti scriptural statement....

lk1:
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,



No...it is quite actual
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

You are in way over your head...find your way back to the shallow end of the pool, read and learn before trying again.

says you with your bias!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Non Calvinistic, holding to the sinner still has the capability to freely respond and trust in jesus to get saved!

Jesus believed in this, see John 5:24, 39-40, etc

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

OK, I can understand that. Yes this was about OSAS first, so yes I see now why this thread could be in this forum. I just felt I needed to offer a word of correction in case you were doing the wrong thing. I know I have before on this forum. Thank you.

are you then the "corrector" on BB?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

bed time in old England

 

[Steven Yeadon]

are you then the "corrector" on BB?

I hope you consider that a good thing, because it is a sign you are in fact loved by me as a brother that I would correct you. I struggle with the sin of just letting people go off and do their own thing when it comes to what I think might be sin. I am told this is a highest form of hate by another believer I was talking to recently. The bible is clear that a reproof or rebuke is a sign of love.

 

[Calminian]

so what do you think Colossians is about? Do you not see the word "redemption" there, and what Calvin says? Before you accuse anyone of being dishonest, get your facts right!

ἀπολύτρωσις, used in this passage, with the meaning, "redemption by payment of ransom, deliverance" (Liddell and Scott, Geek lexicon); "of deliverance thr. Christ from evil and the consequences of sin" (G Abbott-Smith); "everywhere in the N. T. metaphorically, viz. deliverance effected through the death of Christ from the retributive wrath of a holy God and the merited penalty of sin" (J H Thayer)

You said Calvin accepted universal redemption. I'm merely asking you to prove this claim. You're refusing.

And please tell us your understand of redemption. What does it mean?

 

[atpollard]

Jonah was the original "Calvinist"!

I always liked Jonah as a Calvinist poster child as well.
Jonah is someone who God clearly chose for a task (go preach in Nineveh).
So Jonah exercises his ‘Free will’ to decline God’s ‘request’, jumps on a ship and said for the opposite end of the world.
God respects Jonah’s Free Will and chooses someone else to deliver the message ... [Oh wait, that is it what happened, is it?]
That’s right. God reminded Jonah that God is God and only His Will counts.

...So help me remember, at the end of that story, whose will prevailed? Did Jonah prevail and was Nineveh destroyed without warning? Did God prevail and Jonah delivered the message to Ninevah which repented and was spared?

Jonah was a living example of what Calvinism teaches about the relationship between the ‘Free will’ of man and the Soverign Will of God. Men always make the wrong natural choice, and God’s will prevails over it.

 

[Iconoclast]

says you with your bias!

No bias..just observing your absurd postings; from this thread alone;

These same folk wrongly say that sinners do not have a FREE WILL, [/QUOTE]
you cannot show biblically that free will exists....not one verse teaches it

The Greek of this last passage, does not allow for, "you cannot will to come", as though some outside force were preventing it. But, "you are not WILLING to come", as in of themselves.

That describes their condition.
[QUOTE]These Jews of themselves REJECTED the Gospel Message, and thereby deemed THEMSELVES not worthy of eternal life.

All men do this, unless God saves them

, as He is not willing that these precious souls are lost forever, but that they REPENT.

God is very willing that they go into second death;
and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Total Unability is nothing more than a "red herring", and has no basis whatsoever in the Bible

it is all over the bible, only a blind man cannot see this

gen6: And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Which shows that they must have had the ABILITY to "hear and believe", and respond.

No it does not...

11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jesus tells them that they were "UNWILLING", and NOT, as Calvinism would have us understand it, "UNABLE", which the Greek does NOT allow for.

jn6:44.....No man can

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

No bias..just observing your absurd postings; from this thread alone;


All men do this, unless God saves them


God is very willing that they go into second death;
and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



it is all over the bible, only a blind man cannot see this

gen6: And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


No it does not...

11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.



jn6:44.....No man can

WOW!!! I certainly do hope that you are the only Reformed/Calvinist on BB that holds to your anti-Bible views! You say that what I say is "absurd", and then say things that are AGAINST what the God of the Bible says in His own Word. You wrote, "God is very willing that they go into second death", which is that God desires/wills that the wicked sinner goes to hell and suffer eternally. This, my friend exposes your own heart, that is NOT God's, and I encourage you to take a break from BB and seek the Lord for forgiveness and getting right with Him, before you get worse and drift further. LISTEN to what the God of the Bible actually WILLS.

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? (Ezekiel 18:23)

"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye"

The word "pleasure" is from the Hebrew verb, חָפֵץ, which means, "to desire, will, like, be pleased". So, what God here says in Ezekiel, and elsewhere in the Bible, is that He does NOT DESIRE or WILL that ANY wicked/sinful person goes to eternal punishment, that is the reason Jesus Christ came!

May the Lord grant you His Mercy and give you understanding, as your views do NOT reflect His Word. You seriously need help, as you have this very bad habit to mark serious things that I say, as "funny" on here!

 

[Robert William]

unless you are accusing God of being insincere, IF He were to INVITE the whole human race, it is ONLY because He has provided for ALL their sins in the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Redemption has been completed for the whole human race, but all will not be saved because all will not accept what the Lord demands. Remember, the Lord COMMANDS that the entire human race REPENTS of their sins (Acts 17:30)

Those who's sins have been Atoned for cannot end up in Hell, you don't even realize that you are preaching universal ism saying ALL humans will be saved.

 

[Robert William]

You are correct. But the Calvinist will disagree

The Old is obsolete, we are now in a new and better covenant.

Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant
Heb 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
Heb 8:2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.
Heb 8:4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law.
Heb 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.”
Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Robert William]

I always liked Jonah as a Calvinist poster child as well.
Jonah is someone who God clearly chose for a task (go preach in Nineveh).
So Jonah exercises his ‘Free will’ to decline God’s ‘request’, jumps on a ship and said for the opposite end of the world.
God respects Jonah’s Free Will and chooses someone else to deliver the message ... [Oh wait, that is it what happened, is it?]
That’s right. God reminded Jonah that God is God and only His Will counts.

...So help me remember, at the end of that story, whose will prevailed? Did Jonah prevail and was Nineveh destroyed without warning? Did God prevail and Jonah delivered the message to Ninevah which repented and was spared?

Jonah was a living example of what Calvinism teaches about the relationship between the ‘Free will’ of man and the Soverign Will of God. Men always make the wrong natural choice, and God’s will prevails over it.

The natural man makes free will choices every day, what will I wear, what will I eat etc... but when it comes to embracing the gospel, it will never happen, why, because he considers it to be foolishness.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Those who's sins have been Atoned for cannot end up in Hell, you don't even realize that you are preaching universal ism saying ALL humans will be saved.

this is the typical block that the Reformed/Calvinist have. Jesus Christ has "paid the price" for the sins of the entire human race. However,- this is the part that is not understood by these groups -,it is only after the sinner "repents and believes" (Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38) that the blood is actually "applied" to that sinners sins, and they are saved. Repentance leads to forgiveness, as Luke 24:47 (ESV text) teaches, without forgiveness there is no salvation. Repentance is what is required that the sinner DO, it cannot be done for them.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

WOW!!! I certainly do hope that you are the only Reformed/Calvinist on BB that holds to your anti-Bible views! You say that what I say is "absurd", and then say things that are AGAINST what the God of the Bible says in His own Word. You wrote, "God is very willing that they go into second death", which is that God desires/wills that the wicked sinner goes to hell and suffer eternally. This, my friend exposes your own heart, that is NOT God's, and I encourage you to take a break from BB and seek the Lord for forgiveness and getting right with Him, before you get worse and drift further. LISTEN to what the God of the Bible actually WILLS.

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? (Ezekiel 18:23)

"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye"

The word "pleasure" is from the Hebrew verb, חָפֵץ, which means, "to desire, will, like, be pleased". So, what God here says in Ezekiel, and elsewhere in the Bible, is that He does NOT DESIRE or WILL that ANY wicked/sinful person goes to eternal punishment, that is the reason Jesus Christ came!

May the Lord grant you His Mercy and give you understanding, as your views do NOT reflect His Word. You seriously need help, as you have this very bad habit to mark serious things that I say, as "funny" on here!

Robert, show me from the Holy Bible, that what I have said above to be wrong? Don't waste your prayers for that what is Biblically correct.

 

[Robert William]

this is the typical block that the Reformed/Calvinist have. Jesus Christ has "paid the price" for the sins of the entire human race. However,- this is the part that is not understood by these groups -,it is only after the sinner "repents and believes" (Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38) that the blood is actually "applied" to that sinners sins, and they are saved. Repentance leads to forgiveness, as Luke 24:47 (ESV text) teaches, without forgiveness there is no salvation. Repentance is what is required that the sinner DO, it cannot be done for them.

If ALL humans sins have been Atoned for, then those who don't repent will enter the Kingdom, why, because as you said their sins have been Atoned for.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

If ALL humans sins have been Atoned for, then those who don't repent will enter the Kingdom, why, because as you said their sins have been Atoned for.

The correct Bible terms are "bought" (see 2 Peter 2:1, which is for those who are lost in hell); "ransomed" (1 Timothy 2:6, where again it includes those ALL mentioned at the beginning of this chapter); and "sin-offering/covering" (1 John 2:2, which is for the entire human race, whose sins are "covered" by the blood). As we read in the first example, these sinners DENY this and therefore refuse to accept what Jesus has done. Luke 22 says that Judas is included in the "shed for YOU", as he is still at the Lord's Supper after it was taken. Both Matthew Henry and John Gill, who are Reformed/Calvinists, admit that Judas did take the Lord's Supper, which is confirmed by the Greek scholar, Dr A T Robertson. This is what the Bible teaches

 

[Robert William]

The correct Bible terms are "bought" (see 2 Peter 2:1, which is for those who are lost in hell); "ransomed" (1 Timothy 2:6, where again it includes those ALL mentioned at the beginning of this chapter); and "sin-offering/covering" (1 John 2:2, which is for the entire human race, whose sins are "covered" by the blood). As we read in the first example, these sinners DENY this and therefore refuse to accept what Jesus has done. Luke 22 says that Judas is included in the "shed for YOU", as he is still at the Lord's Supper after it was taken. Both Matthew Henry and John Gill, who are Reformed/Calvinists, admit that Judas did take the Lord's Supper, which is confirmed by the Greek scholar, Dr A T Robertson. This is what the Bible teaches

Bought Ransomed, that's not ALL humans as you preach.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Hey Saved-By-Grace,

I have a previous thread with a large number of bible verses you might want to peruse:

My Theological Stance after Searching with All of My Heart

I have a thread I started on OSAS a while back as well with a lot of bible verses referenced.

How I Read the Bible on Works and Salvation

I hope those bible verses add to the discussion.

 

[Yeshua1]

this is the typical block that the Reformed/Calvinist have. Jesus Christ has "paid the price" for the sins of the entire human race. However,- this is the part that is not understood by these groups -,it is only after the sinner "repents and believes" (Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38) that the blood is actually "applied" to that sinners sins, and they are saved. Repentance leads to forgiveness, as Luke 24:47 (ESV text) teaches, without forgiveness there is no salvation. Repentance is what is required that the sinner DO, it cannot be done for them.

The holy Spirt Himself MUST grant them the faith unto belief in Jesus, and he also will produce in them godly type of repentance as a fruit of salvation.