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There are two Israels...
- Thread starter J.D.
- Start date
How can a Kingdom be restored it was never a Kingdom prevously?J.D. said:in scripture. Agree?
Now, to which Israel is the Kingdom restored?
Agreed.........:thumbs:Revmitchell said:ummm......no
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Allan said:Agreed.........:thumbs:
There were two Israel's; Spiritual Israel and national Israel. [Romans 9] Even Ryrie Dispensationalism, page127, seems to agree.
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I do not buy into any form of replacement theology.
Ryrie isn't stating there are 'two' Israels nor does Ryrie state that the Church is 'spiritual Israel'.OldRegular said:There were two Israel's; Spiritual Israel and national Israel. [Romans 9] Even Ryrie Dispensationalism, page127, seems to agree.
From Ryries Basic Theology Section 13, Subsection "ll Doctrinal Characterists of Premillinnealism:
Or here in Ryries Basic Theology Section 12; subsection"I will build my Church".D. Concerning The Church
Dispensational premillennialists consistently distinguish the church from Israel. Because the church does not fulfill the yet-unfulfilled promises made to Israel, there must be a time when they will be fulfilled, and that time is in the Millennium.
The extent to which a theological system consistently distinguishes Israel and the church will reveal its eschatological position. Observe the following chart.
II. THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO ISRAEL
The church stands distinct from Israel and did not begin until the Day of Pentecost, and thus did not exist in the Old Testament period.
The distinction between Israel and the church is verified by several facts. (1) In the New Testament natural Israel and Gentiles are contrasted after the church was clearly established (Acts 3:12; 4:8, 10; 5:21, 31, 35; 21:19). (2) Natural Israel and the church are clearly distinguished, showing that the church is not Israel (1 Cor. 10:32). The apostle’s distinction would be meaningless if Israel were the same as the church. (3) Galatians 6:16 provides no clear proof that the church is equated with Israel. Only if the kai is explicative would the phrase equate the Israel of God with the New Creation, the church. But the kai may be emphatic, emphasizing an especially important part (Jewish believers) in the benediction on the whole church (as the kai is in Mark 16:7 and Acts 1:14). Or it may simply connect Jewish Christians to the New Creation. The thrust of the Book of Galatians argues against the explicative use (the only one which would identify the church as Israel). Since Paul had severely attacked the Jewish legalists, it would be expected that he would single out for special blessing those Jewish people who had forsaken legalism and truly followed Christ.
Nothing about the church being spiritual Israel. We can be said to be spirtual partake WITH Israel regarding some of God's promises to it but we are distinct from Israel as the scriptures dictate.
Galatians 6:16 (KJV) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Gill:
1 Corinthians 10:18 (KJV) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
Gill again:
Gill:
and upon the Israel of God[SIZE=+1]; which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see 1Co 10:18[SIZE=+1]. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
1 Corinthians 10:18 (KJV) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
Gill again:
Ver. 18. Behold Israel after the flesh[SIZE=+1],.... So the apostle calls them, to distinguish them from the Israel of God, the spiritual Israel, whether Jews or Gentiles; who are born again, believe in the true Messiah, worship God in a spiritual manner, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in fleshly things; but these were the descendants of Jacob or Israel by carnal generation, were carnal men, in the flesh, in a state of unregeneracy, and were employed in a carnal worship, in the observance of carnal commandments and ordinances;[/SIZE]
Sorry, but Gill's opinions are nothing more than his opinions of what the scripture is saying and not necessarily what scripture is actaully saying.J.D. said:Galatians 6:16 (KJV) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Gill:
1 Corinthians 10:18 (KJV) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
Gill again:
To use Gill's opinions or any other who holds to such a view means that you will acknowledge all others veiws that differ just as truthful and accurate a renderings as Gill
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If by that you mean that there is genetic Israel, and that "true Israel" is a subset of genetic Israel, then yes. That is what Paul teaches in Romans 9.in scripture. Agree?
Now, to which Israel is the Kingdom restored?
This is actually a great proof that Israel and the church are distinct. You notice there are two groups here: 1) those who walk according to this rule and 2) the Israel of God. Paul is prayer for peace and mercy for both groups. Gill is incorrect on this passage.Galatians 6:16 (KJV) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Allan said:Ryrie isn't stating there are 'two' Israels nor does Ryrie state that the Church is 'spiritual Israel'.
I did not say that Ryrie said that spiritual Israel was the Church. I said that he implied there were two israel, spiritual Israel and national Israel. Did you read the page I referenced? Please do not imitate Mitchell and imply that I am lying. This seems to be a tactic of dispensationalists when they cannot defend their doctrine.
The Apostle Paul certainly teaches that Spiritual Israel and the Church are the same. Simply read the parable of the olive tree in Romans 11. Also compare the following:
Romans 2:28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 2:10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Colossians 2:11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
OldRegular said:Please do not imitate Mitchell and imply that I am lying. This seems to be a tactic of dispensationalists when they cannot defend their doctrine.
Maybe you should just keep this thread about this thread.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:Maybe you should just keep this thread about this thread.
Is it hard for you to kick against the truth?:laugh:
OldRegular said:Is it hard for you to kick against the truth?:laugh:
And you continue to make my point.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:And you continue to make my point.
And just what is your point?
There were two Israels: A believing remnant, spiritual israel, and carnal National Israel.
Well, okay, if all we have is opinions, let's just call the whole thing off.Allan said:Sorry, but Gill's opinions are nothing more than his opinions of what the scripture is saying and not necessarily what scripture is actaully saying.
To use Gill's opinions or any other who holds to such a view means that you will acknowledge all others veiws that differ just as truthful and accurate a renderings as Gill
But what about the other scripture I mentioned? Doesn't the fact that Paul mentions an "Israel according to the flesh" mean that there must be an "Isreal NOT according to the flesh"?Pastor Larry said:If by that you mean that there is genetic Israel, and that "true Israel" is a subset of genetic Israel, then yes. That is what Paul teaches in Romans 9.
This is actually a great proof that Israel and the church are distinct. You notice there are two groups here: 1) those who walk according to this rule and 2) the Israel of God. Paul is prayer for peace and mercy for both groups. Gill is incorrect on this passage.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Sorry, but your opinions are nothing more than your opinions.Allan said:How can a Kingdom be restored it was never a Kingdom prevously?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Sorry, but Ryries opinions are nothing more than his opinions of what the scripture is saying and not necessarily what scripture is actaully saying.Allan said:Ryrie isn't stating there are 'two' Israels nor does Ryrie state that the Church is 'spiritual Israel'.
From Ryries Basic Theology Section 13, Subsection "ll Doctrinal Characterists of Premillinnealism:
Or here in Ryries Basic Theology Section 12; subsection"I will build my Church".
Nothing about the church being spiritual Israel. We can be said to be spirtual partake WITH Israel regarding some of God's promises to it but we are distinct from Israel as the scriptures dictate.
To use Ryries opinions or any other who holds to such a view means that you will acknowledge all others veiws that differ just as truthful and accurate a renderings as Ryries
Jarthur001 said:Sorry, but Ryries opinions are nothing more than his opinions of what the scripture is saying and not necessarily what scripture is actaully saying.
To use Ryries opinions or any other who holds to such a view means that you will acknowledge all others veiws that differ just as truthful and accurate a renderings as Ryries
Maybe you could just state your point without harassing him.