They deny the Saving Efficacy of the Death of Christ !

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Why do you deny the clear scripture that shows your view is wrong.

Thats you, you deny the saving Death of Christ, thats what Salvation is all about His Death. Its to be remembered because of its saving benefit 1 Cor 11:26


For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

And yet you have the audacity to say the Lords Death didnt save anyone. Do you take communion at your church ? Next time you take it, remember your own words "the Lords Death didnt save anyone."

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



I havent denied them. Yet you deny that the Death of Christ saved them He died for, Rom 5:10 makes that clear as Day, a person reconciled to God is saved from the penalty of their sins, they dont have sin charged to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

if a person doesnt sin charged against them, they are saved from the penalty of sin ! That came about by the Death of Christ

Read over what you just posted BF.
Rom 5:10 "...having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!"

2Co 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Your words BF "a person reconciled to God is saved from the penalty of their sins, they dont have sin charged to them"

2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
2Co 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Note what those verses say BF. We are reconciled to the Father when we are in Christ. Christ was the propitiation for the sins of all mankind. But only those that are in Christ through Faith will receive the benefit of that propitiation as those that reject Him reject what He has done for them.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Read over what you just posted BF.

I know what I posted, and what you posted, You posted Christs Death doesnt save anyone. Thats against tons of scripture truth. The Bible never made a statement like that !

 

[37818]

@Brightfame52,
1 John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Aaron]

@Brightfame52,
1 John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Right, not just the Jews, but those of ALL nations.

 

[Silverhair]

Right, not just the Jews, but those of ALL nations.

That would be all of humanity, the whole world.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



I know what I posted, and what you posted, You posted Christs Death doesnt save anyone. Thats against tons of scripture truth. The Bible never made a statement like that !

You keep saying that but the bible disagrees with you.

We do not place our faith in a dead man but in the living man Christ Jesus.

 

[Aaron]

The whole world has their sins forgiven?

 

[Silverhair]

The whole world has their sins forgiven?

Well since ones sins are only forgiven when they have trusted in God and not all have trusted in Him then the logical answer is no.

So that also means that the verse or verses that prompted that question has to have been misunderstood by you.

 

[Charlie24]

@Silverhair



I havent denied them. Yet you deny that the Death of Christ saved them He died for, Rom 5:10 makes that clear as Day, a person reconciled to God is saved from the penalty of their sins, they dont have sin charged to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

if a person doesnt sin charged against them, they are saved from the penalty of sin ! That came about by the Death of Christ

This is the viewpoint of the UR. No wonder I haven't been able to understand you all these years, BF.

 

[Aaron]

Well since ones sins are only forgiven when they have trusted in God and not all have trusted in Him then the logical answer is no.

So that also means that the verse or verses that prompted that question has to have been misunderstood by you.

So Christ only the propitiation for those who receive Him? (Unless you don't understand what being the Propitiation means) Then what did John mean by 'Not ours only?'

 

[Silverhair]

So Christ only the propitiation for those who receive Him? (Unless you don't understand what being the Propitiation means) Then what did John mean by 'Not ours only?'

As 1Jn 2:2 say He is the propitiation for the whole world. but I would think you would even agree that only those that trust in the risen Christ are saved.

Protipiation does not mean saved but it does mean this in theology, "the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners."

God is now willing to save those that have trusted in His son Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith...

But I do note that you reject the word of God on a regular basis if it does not fit with your C/R religion.

 

[Charlie24]

So Christ only the propitiation for those who receive Him? (Unless you don't understand what being the Propitiation means) Then what did John mean by 'Not ours only?'

Christ is the satisfaction for all the sins of mankind. But only those who believe in Him will benefit from His death and resurrection.

 

[Charlie24]

Christ is the satisfaction for all the sins of mankind. But only those who believe in Him will benefit from His death and resurrection.

Aaron, have you noticed in the OT Scripture how God acted on sin in real time. He punished sin and made them suffer in this life.

But in the NT Scripture God doesn't work the same in punishing sin in real time. Have you ever wondered why the difference?

It's because Christ has satisfied the sin debt of man.

 

[Aaron]

Protipiation does not mean saved but it does mean this in theology,

It absolutely does. Propitiation means satisfaction or appeasement...atonement. (Literally 'Mercy Seat' or the lid of the Ark of the Covenant.)

On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest wore the breastplate with the twelve stones representing the twelve tribes...the elect. It was only they who had their sins forgiven on that day. Not Egypt's. Not the Syrians. Neither the Persians nor the Medes.

So it is only the elect, however you define them, for whom Christ is the propitiation.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, have you noticed in the OT Scripture how God acted on sin in real time. He punished sin and made them suffer in this life.

But in the NT Scripture God doesn't work the same in punishing sin in real time.

Really? Then why all the sickness, and war, and famine, and pestilence, and oppression? Why the rampant sodomy and reprobation? I, like Paul, see the wrath of God revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

Have you ever wondered why the difference?

There is no difference. There is a difference though, in how Satan can manifest himself and the works he can do. The priests of Egypt turned their staffs into serpents. (It wasn't an illusion.) They turned water into blood. They called forth frogs, too.

The prophets of Baal certainly expected to see some fire from heaven.

Satan was much more free to perform his lying wonders, than he is now, because he's been temporarily bound. But when that 'man of sin' is revealed, and 'that which now letteth' is taken out of the way, he'll be back.

That's the difference I see.

But I'm not sure what you mean by dealing with sin in real time, unless you're talking about the law, and God's zero tolerance of brazen sacrilege from the priests, like Nadab and Abihu, or Uzza, etc.

That covenant was cancelled when Christ came to do God's will. Heb 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

But God withholding His judgement from the ungodliness and unrighteousness of man? I don't see that. Quite the opposite, really. I see a rod of iron.

It's because Christ has satisfied the sin debt of man.

He satisfied the sin debt of the elect. To say the sin debt has been satisfied for all men is the error of Universalism.

 

[Charlie24]

Really? Then why all the sickness, and war, and famine, and pestilence, and oppression? Why the rampant sodomy and reprobation? I, like Paul, see the wrath of God revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.


There is no difference. There is a difference though, in how Satan can manifest himself and the works he can do. The priests of Egypt turned their staffs into serpents. (It wasn't an illusion.) They turned water into blood. They called forth frogs, too.

The prophets of Baal certainly expected to see some fire from heaven.

Satan was much more free to perform his lying wonders, than he is now, because he's been temporarily bound. But when that 'man of sin' is revealed, and 'that which now letteth' is taken out of the way, he'll be back.

That's the difference I see.

But I'm not sure what you mean by dealing with sin in real time, unless you're talking about the law, and God's zero tolerance of brazen sacrilege from the priests, like Nadab and Abihu, or Uzza, etc.

That covenant was cancelled when Christ came to do God's will. Heb 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

But God withholding His judgement from the ungodliness and unrighteousness of man? I don't see that. Quite the opposite, really. I see a rod of iron.


He satisfied the sin debt of the elect. To say the sin debt has been satisfied for all men is the error of Universalism.

Oh boy do we have different lenses in the Scripture.

But that's the way it is, I'm not going to fight with you, sometimes you just have to let it go.

 

[Silverhair]

It absolutely does. Propitiation means satisfaction or appeasement...atonement. (Literally 'Mercy Seat' or the lid of the Ark of the Covenant.)

On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest wore the breastplate with the twelve stones representing the twelve tribes...the elect. It was only they who had their sins forgiven on that day. Not Egypt's. Not the Syrians. Neither the Persians nor the Medes.

So it is only the elect, however you define them, for whom Christ is the propitiation.

If propitiation meant removal of sins then the whole world would have no sin, is that what you are going to claim?

With reference to 1 John 2:2
The atonement was made for the ones that John was writing to
"propitiation for our sins"
Then he tells them but the atonement was not limited to just them
"and not for ours only"
Then he tells them who else were to be included
"but also for the whole world"

Christ was the sacrifice that was offered to God to turn aside His wrath so that He could be gracious / merciful; and ready to forgive the sins of those that trust in His risen Son.

Propitiation does not mean that we are forgiven but that the wrath of an offended one, God, has been turned away so that He could be gracious / merciful; and ready to forgive the sins of those that trust in His risen Son..
The wrath turned away is the wrath of God;
The person making the propitiation is Christ;
The propitiating offering or sacrifice is his blood.

Only one person was saved at the cross, the thief who trusted in Christ. While His death was sufficient to appease the wrath of God for the whole world it does not save us. We are saved by faith in the risen Christ. 1Co_15:13-14

 

[Aaron]

Propitiation does not mean that we are forgiven but that the wrath of an offended one, God, has been turned away so that He could be gracious / merciful; and ready to forgive the sins of those that trust in His risen Son..
The wrath turned away is the wrath of God;
The person making the propitiation is Christ;
The propitiating offering or sacrifice is his blood.

God gave us a picture book in the OT. The Apostle cites it in Hebrews 9 and 10.

The act of propitiation puts away sin.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. - Hebrews 9:24-28

...

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. - Hebrews 10:4 KJV

 

[David Lamb]

You answered your own question BF. We are saved by His life. Not saved by His death.

Isn't the biblical truth that both Christ's perfect life and His sacrificial death are essential for salvation?

“"Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth"; who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed.” (1Pe 2:22-24 NKJV)

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” (1Pe 1:3 NKJV)

If He had remained dead, nobody could be saved. But if He had not died, how could He have been the perfect Sacrifice for sin?