Jesus founded His one true Church, and it was not Rome!
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This Seems Big.
- Thread starter Bro. Curtis
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Again. We don't claim infallibility. The pope does. Point fails. Again.
i get amused at the lie that the Roman papist folks claim they are the original.
As if there were not anyone else in history in which God used.
The biggest lie is that the Roman papists try to hold salvation as their gift to dispense and withhold.
It has always been about power, authority, and wealth with the papist church. They react violently when such is threatened.
That is historical fact.
Anyone who reads "Fox's Book of Martyrs" can see the documentation.
As if there were not anyone else in history in which God used.
The biggest lie is that the Roman papists try to hold salvation as their gift to dispense and withhold.
It has always been about power, authority, and wealth with the papist church. They react violently when such is threatened.
That is historical fact.
Anyone who reads "Fox's Book of Martyrs" can see the documentation.
The Pope is not infallible. That is not Catholic doctrine. A few rare decisions of Popes in the past have been deemed infallible, but their nature flows from office not the man, in much the same way as the US military salute and respect the office of President, not necessarily the man.
I agree with everything you said, here. I'm pretty sure everyone would.
Its about as silly as insisting that you believe 1+1 = 5 even after telling us you don't.
But since you can insist that we believe the pope is infallible in everything he does.
Open wide for mouthful of your own medicine:
YOU are a PROTESTANT.
I get amused at the TRUTH that non-catholics claim they don't hold salvation as their gift to dispense and withhold.
18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
It almost sounds like they want to say the Catholics are DOING SOMETHING WRONG.
Which is absurd since doing right is not required of FAITH ALONE.
.
Hah. You wish. I don't protest the RCC I detest it. My faith was NEVER based on oral tradition.
But you can fantasize about me any way you need to.
Prove by Scripture that statement is applicable to the church. Or held by any member of any church.
Prove by Scripture just how one is admitted into the presence of the Creator.
Prove by Scripture that Christ is not the ONLY mediator between humans and God.
Prove by Scripture that such authority is given to humans who historically have run to perversion and excess. Who would actually sell and bargain the offer of heaven for power and wealth.
I will, and you likewise can fantasize about the meaning of Papal Infallibility.
Happy to oblige,
Matthew 18
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TW
R THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.19“Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
Self-explanatory
John 20
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Self-explanatory
Matthew 9
5“Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7And he got up and went home. 8But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
They glorified GOD, who had given such authority to MEN. This is normal human capacity.
2 Corinthians 5
18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
Self-explanatory.
Now one of your statements was:
"Prove by Scripture that Christ is not the ONLY mediator between humans and God."
That is self-refuting. Because the CHURCH IS JESUS CHRIST. If your church is not Jesus Christ you should leave.
Ephesians 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
Jesus Christ is ONE FLESH with his church. When Christ has spoken so has the church.
This idea of separating Jesus from the church is shooting yourself in the foot.
It would be better to argue the church is indeed one flesh with Jesus and simply say we are not THE CHURCH.
But where you stand right now you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Now I have an easy request of you:
I believe absolutely all of scripture is true.
I believe scripture is profitable and even helpful and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. 2 timothy 3:16
And I am totally against adding rules to scripture that are not written in there.
So here is my request:
PROVE BY SCRIPTURE that scripture alone and only is the Sole Rule of Faith.
Matthew 23:2-3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based "on Moses' seat". (Jesus Christ did not open a King James bible to Matthew 23 to proclaim Moses' seat has authority)
PROVE BY SCRIPTURE in the OLD TESTAMENT where it claims there is a SEAT of MOSES that holds authority.
2 TIMOTHY 3
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.
PROVE BY SCRIPTURE the identity of Jannes and Jambres. (Hint: Jews and Catholics know who they are)
Jude 9
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
PROVE BY SCRIPTURE the matter of dispute itself about the body of Moses.
(Jews and Catholics know what happened........show us in scripture what happened)
Yes. Papal infallibility IS a fantasy.
The pope is infallible but needs correction every 750 years or so.
How can this be ? Please explain.
Not going to get dragged into another conversation.
How can this be ? Please explain.
Not going to get dragged into another conversation.
Again, then we have to look at your scriptural interpretations as error filled. Point wins.
Really? Everything Christ did was spread orally. His words were preached to all, for hundreds of years before everything that had been written down was collated together in what we now know as the New Testament. (All brought together by the ONE UNIVERSAL (Catholic) CHRISTIAN CHURCH).
As for what your faith is based on, you got your information about it from someone, so who was it - Martin Luther? Zwingli? Wesley? Smythe? White?
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Sigh.
How can a pope be infallible yet still require correction by his lessors ?
In layman terms, please.
How can a pope be infallible yet still require correction by his lessors ?
In layman terms, please.
Oh that's funny! We hold on to what was preached for over 1500 years - one chuch, one Jesus in the Holy Eucharist and more.
You on the other hand have counter protested the original protestor Luther, falling further away from what Jesus wanted you to know.
What does Ratzinger, the Emeritus Benedictine Pope have to say? He probably knows exactly what is going down.
The Pope Leo X crowd has more clout than I realized. Aren't they are the ones who say Vatican II is all messed up and the Popes since Vatican II are actually antipopes? So, there may be a way to wiggle out of this one too.
I understand papal infallibility is in effect only when he is ex officio, more ambiguous Latin jargon.
Time for another conclave of cardinals.
National Enquirer will be getting on this one.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
The Pope Leo X crowd has more clout than I realized. Aren't they are the ones who say Vatican II is all messed up and the Popes since Vatican II are actually antipopes? So, there may be a way to wiggle out of this one too.
I understand papal infallibility is in effect only when he is ex officio, more ambiguous Latin jargon.
Time for another conclave of cardinals.
National Enquirer will be getting on this one.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
The
So, you would admit that ALL believers have such authority, or that it was specific to ONLY the apostles. It is either one or the other taken the verses you quoted.
Therefore, it is either power held by all, or none after the Apostle John died.
So ultimately you are suggesting that Christ died for Himself, and gave to Himself, and Loved Himself.
Isn't that the picture of narcissism?
Do you not know the Scriptures, that the just live by faith?
Romans 1:17, repeated in Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38.
You don't consider that faith is dispensed by the papist, do you?
My, are you claiming that those believers of the Lord Jesus Christ are heretics if they don't bow down to the papist idol worshiping leadership and kiss the sacred ring of puffed up importance?
Are you actually contending that Christ is NOT the only way, truth, life? That in some manner the human institution ruled by the papist, is Christ?
The Roman church was not even viable until Constantine, long after the apostle John died decades after the apostle Paul who rebuked Peter before the whole assembly.
I bet you refuse to acknowledge the erroneous teaching of the Papists.
Happy to oblige,
Matthew 18
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TW
19“Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
Self-explanatory
John 20
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Self-explanatory
Matthew 9
5“Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7And he got up and went home. 8But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
They glorified GOD, who had given such authority to MEN. This is normal human capacity.
So, you would admit that ALL believers have such authority, or that it was specific to ONLY the apostles. It is either one or the other taken the verses you quoted.
Therefore, it is either power held by all, or none after the Apostle John died.
So ultimately you are suggesting that Christ died for Himself, and gave to Himself, and Loved Himself.
Isn't that the picture of narcissism?
Do you not know the Scriptures, that the just live by faith?
Romans 1:17, repeated in Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38.
You don't consider that faith is dispensed by the papist, do you?
My, are you claiming that those believers of the Lord Jesus Christ are heretics if they don't bow down to the papist idol worshiping leadership and kiss the sacred ring of puffed up importance?
Are you actually contending that Christ is NOT the only way, truth, life? That in some manner the human institution ruled by the papist, is Christ?
The Roman church was not even viable until Constantine, long after the apostle John died decades after the apostle Paul who rebuked Peter before the whole assembly.
3Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
Oh, wait, I see that the Lord referred to Peter as a "this."
I bet you refuse to acknowledge the erroneous teaching of the Papists.
Actually,
If you new anything about the Scripture, you would acknowledge that people like Luther and Tyndall used the available Latin, Greek, ... transcripts that were archived and produced by the Roman church and available even to this day, online. They both were Roman Catholics before the papist turned on them.
I suggest you drag out your catholic authorized version and diligently compare it to the NASB or even the RSV. You will have to admit to the truth, that these are accurate and consistent.
As I read through this thread, I see a great preoccupation with folks thinking the Roman papists were presenting the complete truth when:
They only would teach, preach and print the Scriptures in a language that the vast majority of the world worshippers did not comprehend.
They would build great cathedrals by selling fire escape insurance to illiterate people of Europe, who only had knowledge of what the folks selling the indulgences were telling them. For they had no ability of learning the truth from anyone else.
They claim they are the first and true church, but would that not discredit the assemblies of the Ephesians started by Paul, pastored by John, later by Polycarp, hundreds of years before the church authored by Constantine. What about the Greek Orthodox as the first?
The papists claim pope infallibility, especially while sitting on the "throne." Yet, what is with their holy seed having to make apology, reverse decisions, and change "saints." Or any other evidences that the papist top head master changed even the most antiquated rules such as diet restrictions of fish on Friday.
They only would teach, preach and print the Scriptures in a language that the vast majority of the world worshippers did not comprehend.
They would build great cathedrals by selling fire escape insurance to illiterate people of Europe, who only had knowledge of what the folks selling the indulgences were telling them. For they had no ability of learning the truth from anyone else.
They claim they are the first and true church, but would that not discredit the assemblies of the Ephesians started by Paul, pastored by John, later by Polycarp, hundreds of years before the church authored by Constantine. What about the Greek Orthodox as the first?
The papists claim pope infallibility, especially while sitting on the "throne." Yet, what is with their holy seed having to make apology, reverse decisions, and change "saints." Or any other evidences that the papist top head master changed even the most antiquated rules such as diet restrictions of fish on Friday.
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