he is the Vicar of Christ, so to Rome, when he speaks on issues of doctrines, just like Jesus Himself was talking!
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This Seems Big.
- Thread starter Bro. Curtis
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Let's go back to the original battlefield: Matthew 16:18. Either God made Peter the first pope or He did not. If He did, everyone outside the Holy See are apostate usurpers. The Vatican has not delegated authority to anyone; in fact, if you are outside their jurisdiction, you are apostate and excommunicated. See Council of Trent, Vatican II as well.
If Peter is not the first pope, the Vatican has usurped authority from her beginning. This also applies to all those who came out from her. It cannot be all of the above. Some have called this a Trilema.
Now what?
Even so, come Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
If Peter is not the first pope, the Vatican has usurped authority from her beginning. This also applies to all those who came out from her. It cannot be all of the above. Some have called this a Trilema.
Now what?
Even so, come Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
How could Peter be the First Pope, when James was head of the Jerusalem Church, and Peter was "only" one of the main pillars there, and Peter saw paul as being His co equal. to the Gentiles as he was tot he Jews?
And peter would have said "God forbid" that ANY church was founded and led by ANY other than His master and Lord Jesus!
Please re-read what I posted
Except that we disagree on what they mean, so ultimately an infallible Bible does not in and of itself produce an infallible epistemology
That is why there in no infallible Pope, as NONE have infallible interpretation!
So what's the use?
For what, the Pope? Good question!
Nope. Done here. You've had three pages. Enough doublespeak for one subject. I'll be back sometime with a question about the virgin of Guadalupe. You may wanna study up on her ?
Do you not understand the difference between the man and the statements? Or do you not want to understand it?
No, an infallible Bible. What's the use of having infallible Scriptures if there is no infallible interpretation?
I am not debating that Roman Catholicism is wrong about the doctrine that when a pope speaks ex cathedra that he is infallible. All I am saying is that this pope never spoke ex cathedra on the questions that he received complaints about and so therefore he was not infallible in expressing what appears to be his personal opinion.
The Roman Catholic Church only claims infallibility when an ex cathedra statement is made. Read the doctrine for yourself:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Infallibility
As a Baptist and a Protestant, I do not believe that the pope is the Vicar of Christ. I think that Pope Francis is a Peronist, a form of fascist peculiar to Argentina, where many Italians live. All I am saying is that he cannot be charged with claiming infallibility when he is not speaking ex cathedra. It is analogous to saying that the Southern Baptist Convention believes officially something other than what is enunciated in the Baptist Faith and Message.
Read the Roman Catholic statement for yourself--we agree that is wrong but the Roman Catholic statement is not simple and would require a great deal of effort to refute point by point.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Infallibility
How could the supposed "vicar" of Christ, his very persona on Earth, The Hole See, Alto Christi, His Holiness hisself, possibly have a different opinion about marriage than what was supposedly revealed to him by whom he supposedly represents ?
Understand ? What's to understand ? It's utter nonsense. .
Because he is human and fallible like the rest of us. As CMG has helpfully explained, only ex cathedra statements - of which there are but a handful - are deemed infallible by the Catholic Church, and the present Pope hasn't made any. So his expressed opinions are open to challenge from other Christians including his fellow Catholics.
Can he cast doubt on any other sacred doctrine as long as he's not speaking ex cathedra ? Can he doubt the virgin birth ?
Matthew 16 certainly is very symbolic of Peter's position. But here is the real "damning" command:
15So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.”16He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” 17He said to him the third time, “Simon, sonof John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Tend My sheep.
Put yourself in Peter's shoes, you are taken on the side and spoken to, you are receiving a direct command from Jesus.
Tend my Lambs, Shepherd My sheep, Tend My sheep.
I don't care what vote goes where, what crown is worn by what country's king, or if everyone on earth does not respect you.
God Almighty has laid out a command on you as being responsible for ALL of Christ' sheep.
Peter is absolutely in charge by command of Jesus Christ. Later he sole receives vision as to God's will for the church concerning gentiles and Judaisms. God could have sent an email to everyone's brain.
Never-mind having any "authority" we can TODAY all say Peter has ZERO, but since CHRIST laid on him 100% RESPONSIBILITY you have a totally different monster all together.
It cannot be stated any PLAINER That the Love of Christ is directly connected to the love of the sheep.
Peter is not commanded to love sheep as in loving lamb chops to eat, To shepherd them, tend them, and they are Christ's own treasured lambs.
Again bottom line:
The claim Peter is not Pope is laughable, which Pope is just a title of endearment
God Almighty has laid out a command on you as being responsible for ALL of Christ' sheep. From who or what do you need verification to otherwise!? This is worst then being "in charged" ..... You have been charged by God PERIOD!
Do we not agree that Pope Francis is an advocate of Liberation Theology?
I think that you said that the pope was supposed to be infallible; the Roman Catholic Church doctrine says that the pope is infallible only when he speaks ex cathedra, from the chair literally, or in an official statement. Read the official Roman Catholic Church statement at the Roman Catholic New Advent Encyclopedia, which lists the point about ex cathedra in its entirety:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Infallibility
And the Church! Remember, the Scriptures were not around as we know them for some 300 years. The leaders of the new Christian church were speaking to the other Christians around the world as evidenced by the letters Paul was writing to them. They were controlling the newly emerging Christisn faith from a central authority.
A book was not written and then sent out around the world so the other Christians could then decide things for themselves as you now do.
There was a CHURCH, and it's pronouncements were and remain infallible! It had to be. It was led by the Holy Spirit under the auspices of the people who were appointed to lead. "He that hears you, hears me" and Jesus meant the leaders of the established earthly church when he said it.
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