This Seems Big.

[utilyan]

Yes. Papal infallibility IS a fantasy.

Its pretty simple If you think papal infallibility means everything the pope says and does is infallible, then clearly you are uneducated.

You can google and wiki this stuff.

 

[utilyan]

The

So, you would admit that ALL believers have such authority, or that it was specific to ONLY the apostles. It is either one or the other taken the verses you quoted.


Therefore, it is either power held by all, or none after the Apostle John died.



So ultimately you are suggesting that Christ died for Himself, and gave to Himself, and Loved Himself.

Isn't that the picture of narcissism?




Do you not know the Scriptures, that the just live by faith?

Romans 1:17, repeated in Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38.

You don't consider that faith is dispensed by the papist, do you?



My, are you claiming that those believers of the Lord Jesus Christ are heretics if they don't bow down to the papist idol worshiping leadership and kiss the sacred ring of puffed up importance?


Are you actually contending that Christ is NOT the only way, truth, life? That in some manner the human institution ruled by the papist, is Christ?

The Roman church was not even viable until Constantine, long after the apostle John died decades after the apostle Paul who rebuked Peter before the whole assembly.

3Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
​

Oh, wait, I see that the Lord referred to Peter as a "this."

I bet you refuse to acknowledge the erroneous teaching of the Papists.

Jesus absolutely can love himself and simultaneously accomplish love God and Love neighbor.

Lets hear you say Jesus is not one flesh with his church. If that is what you want to argue SAY IT THEN.


18He is also head of the body, the church;

4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

The CHURCH is Jesus Christ. If the church is says its because Christ says. Jesus Christ is the head who runs the church.

If you don't see Christ in your church, If your church is not Christ himself, it is trash.


I gave you a simple challenge sir to show me by scripture, you have not given ANY scripture at all.
But you are going to provide scripture for the things I asked correct?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Its pretty simple If you think papal infallibility means everything the pope says and does is infallible, then clearly you are uneducated.

You can google and wiki this stuff.

So educate me. Does infallibility mean something different for the pope than it does for everyone else ?

 

[Bro. James]

I guess nobody wants to talk about Vatican II, Leo X, antipopes and such. That is a really interesting surf.

A biblical filial: see Galatians 2:11-21. Apostle Paul withstood Apostle Peter to his face in public regarding a serious doctrinal error. He also preached the good news. Some say this was not Peter, the stone, but rather a Peter from the Seventy. Peter, the stone, from Mt. 16, seems to acknowledge the rebuke. See also II Peter 3:16.

Men making a man infallible even "ex officio" is a fatal error is spiritual discernment. We are all depraved to the core--24/7.

Is there a "lay scholar" school on the www?

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[utilyan]

So educate me. Does infallibility mean something different for the pope than it does for everyone else ?

I am educating you. I'm telling you to wiki and google this stuff. Rather then just accept every accusative hand me down.

There is thousands of misrepresentations like Catholics worship Mary, Catholics worship statues, Catholics don't believe faith is necessary, and everything the Pope says and does is Infallible.

Curtis you've been around since 2004 and still don't have the story straight?

I don't believe you are dumb, I think your a smart individual, you can start with a wiki: That means click this link.

Papal infallibility - Wikipedia

 

[utilyan]

I guess nobody wants to talk about Vatican II, Leo X, antipopes and such. That is a really interesting surf.

A biblical filial: see Galatians 2:11-21. Apostle Paul withstood Apostle Peter to his face in public regarding a serious doctrinal error. He also preached the good news. Some say this was not Peter, the stone, but rather a Peter from the Seventy. Peter, the stone, from Mt. 16, seems to acknowledge the rebuke. See also II Peter 3:16.

Men making a man infallible even "ex officio" is a fatal error is spiritual discernment. We are all depraved to the core--24/7.

Is there a "lay scholar" school on the www?

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

You are trying to hi-jack the point I already made in post #17.

And now you want to throw in suspicion that it wasn't Peter corrected? LOL.


You got concept of papal infallibility which is an easy concept to research and understand WRONG.

Its no surprise you get scripture wrong.

 

[agedman]

Jesus absolutely can love himself and simultaneously accomplish love God and Love neighbor.

Lets hear you say Jesus is not one flesh with his church. If that is what you want to argue SAY IT THEN.


18He is also head of the body, the church;

4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

The CHURCH is Jesus Christ. If the church is says its because Christ says. Jesus Christ is the head who runs the church.

If you don't see Christ in your church, If your church is not Christ himself, it is trash.

I gave you a simple challenge sir to show me by scripture, you have not given ANY scripture at all.
But you are going to provide scripture for the things I asked correct?

If you agree that Christ is the head of the Church, why is there a pope?

Besides, you don't know that "head of the church" means in the Scriptures. Hear is Colossians 1 that you posted in context.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.​

See the Colossians writer is describing the positional authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. That which the papist deny by having some humans long dead and one living as idols.

Paul is stating in Colossian that Christ alone is to be adored, and worshiped. The papists robe from the very Christ such when they exalt some human to saint and pope, cardinal, priest, ...


The Romans 12 you quoted in context:

3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.​

The context shows that NO PERSON in the church is to exalt or think more highly of anyone else, and more they should not think more highly of their own self.

Again, this Scripture destroys the whole idea of bowing down to idols, praying to saints, asking Mary to plead for them, one claiming to speak for Peter and any other deceitful evils the papists consider good.


Then you quote a small sentence from 1 Corinthians 12 which in context states:

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are un-presentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.​

Tell me, that you actually see the hierarchy of the papist system displayed and consistent with that passage.

See, I find that you are relying on part and not the whole of the Scriptures that YOU quoted. Open your bible, see if the quotes are accurate. Compare what the context states to the teachings of the papists.

You claim I don't use Scripture, but I do and you don't recognize it. And what Scripture you post is inappropriately applied.

Btw, I did post Scriptures, in a post, but you apparently didn't read carefully or forgot.

Which would you rely upon as the truth, the Scriptures or what some papist said about the Scriptures? See, that is why the RCC refused to approve of a printing of the Scriptures in the language of the common people. Afraid that the people might realize how very wrong the RCC had become and still is.

Such men as Luther, Huss, Tyndall, and so many others were persecuted and even slain by those who would put power and authority over the truth of Scriptures.

 

[utilyan]

If you agree that Christ is the head of the Church, why is there a pope?

Besides, you don't know that "head of the church" means in the Scriptures. Hear is Colossians 1 that you posted in context.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.​

See the Colossians writer is describing the positional authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. That which the papist deny by having some humans long dead and one living as idols.

Paul is stating in Colossian that Christ alone is to be adored, and worshiped. The papists robe from the very Christ such when they exalt some human to saint and pope, cardinal, priest, ...

The Romans 12 passage in context:


The Romans 12 you quoted in context:

3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.​

The context shows that NO PERSON in the church is to exalt or think more highly of anyone else, and more they should not think more highly of their own self.

Again, this destroys the whole idea of bowing down to idols, praying to saints, asking Mary to plead for them, one claiming to speak for Peter and any other deceitful evils the papists consider good.


Then you quote a small sentence from 1 Corinthians 12 which in context states:

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are un-presentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.​

Tell me, that you actually see the hierarchy of the papist system displayed and consistent with that passage.

See, I find that you are relying on part and not the whole of the Scriptures that YOU quoted. Open your bible, see if the quotes are accurate. Compare what the context states to the teachings of the papists.

You claim I don't use Scripture, but I do and you don't recognize it. And what Scripture you post is inappropriately applied.

You are in error sir. Your logic is : "If you agree that Christ is the head of the Church, why is there a pope?"

Its more akin to asking "If you agree that Christ is the head of the Church, why is there a Janitor?"

Pope is a title akin to calling someone "POPS" or "FATHER" . The official position is BISHOP OF ROME.

"The context shows that NO PERSON in the church is to exalt or think more highly of anyone else, and more they should not think more highly of their own self.

Its true. The Pope is called Servant of the servants of God.

Nothing makes Pope Boss.

The pope can show up at my door, with a crowd of billions.....and say hey give me your fridge, I can say, NOPE and shut the door.



Your idea is the Pope is the head of the church. That is not our idea, you said it yourself, it is YOUR IDEA.

Who is the LIAR who taught you that?

None of you ever came to me to find out what a catholic believes, no you got this xenophobic uncle who teaches you to hate everything that isn't your exact understanding of Christianity.

It would be utterly stupid to seek to be educated about what Jews believe from Adolf.


Now, I gave you requests to PROVE BY SCRIPTURE. YOU have returned with ZERO SCRIPTURE.

Look at my requests, I spelled them out.

You should be GLAD and HAPPY to share the scriptural answers to my requests.

I'm starting to think you hate the bible.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I am educating you. I'm telling you to wiki and google this stuff. Rather then just accept every accusative hand me down.

There is thousands of misrepresentations like Catholics worship Mary, Catholics worship statues, Catholics don't believe faith is necessary, and everything the Pope says and does is Infallible.

Curtis you've been around since 2004 and still don't have the story straight?

I don't believe you are dumb, I think your a smart individual, you can start with a wiki: That means click this link.

Papal infallibility - Wikipedia

Wiki and google don't help me. They say the pope is infallible. He cannot err.

But yet we see him needing correction.

I don't think there is an answer. Just a bunch of Catholics who would much rather talk about something else.

 

[church mouse guy]

I do remember. So why the big fuss about papal infallibility if it's really technically not infallibility.

Catholic double speak at its best.

Not really. As I understand it, the pope is only infallible when he speaks "ex cathedra", that is officially in a formal statement on doctrine. In this case, the pope was just popping off like a politician at a free chicken banquet. This pope is considered a Peronist, after Argentine President Juan Peron, who admired Benito Mussolini and tried to installed Mussolini ideas in Argentina, helping to take it from one of the richest countries in the world to one of the poorest because of Italian style socialism which still dominates in Argentina. The pope not only is a Peronist but also supports communist derived liberation theology and has long been considered a close friend of some of the most repressive dictatorships in Latin America. In the Alberto Nisman murder in Buenos Aires as well as the Iranian terrorists attacks against the Israel Embassy in Buenos Aires and also the Jewish Center in Buenos Aires, the pope has been totally silent to the best of my knowledge.

The people who stood up to the pope directed their complaints to issues of marriage and thus avoided dealing with the pope's dalliance in communism and socialism and anti-Western denunciations. In that respect, it is a big deal, as you have pointed out, Bro. Curtis. God Bless You!

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh that's funny! We hold on to what was preached for over 1500 years - one chuch, one Jesus in the Holy Eucharist and more.

You on the other hand have counter protested the original protestor Luther, falling further away from what Jesus wanted you to know.

You are holding unto heresy though!

 

[Bro. James]

Infallibility: a word coined by those infallible. The corruption of the major so-called universal christian religious system has been documented for the past 1600 years. The followers thereof are given to strong delusion believing a lie. They need prayer not scorn. Satan is alive and well on planet earth. His time is running out.

The clandestine, worldwide operations of the Jesuits is an interesting study.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Adonia]

If you agree that Christ is the head of the Church, why is there a pope?

Besides, you don't know that "head of the church" means in the Scriptures. Hear is Colossians 1 that you posted in context.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.​

See the Colossians writer is describing the positional authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. That which the papist deny by having some humans long dead and one living as idols.

Paul is stating in Colossian that Christ alone is to be adored, and worshiped. The papists robe from the very Christ such when they exalt some human to saint and pope, cardinal, priest, ...


The Romans 12 you quoted in context:

3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.​

The context shows that NO PERSON in the church is to exalt or think more highly of anyone else, and more they should not think more highly of their own self.

Again, this Scripture destroys the whole idea of bowing down to idols, praying to saints, asking Mary to plead for them, one claiming to speak for Peter and any other deceitful evils the papists consider good.


Then you quote a small sentence from 1 Corinthians 12 which in context states:

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are un-presentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.​

Tell me, that you actually see the hierarchy of the papist system displayed and consistent with that passage.

See, I find that you are relying on part and not the whole of the Scriptures that YOU quoted. Open your bible, see if the quotes are accurate. Compare what the context states to the teachings of the papists.

You claim I don't use Scripture, but I do and you don't recognize it. And what Scripture you post is inappropriately applied.

Btw, I did post Scriptures, in a post, but you apparently didn't read carefully or forgot.

Which would you rely upon as the truth, the Scriptures or what some papist said about the Scriptures? See, that is why the RCC refused to approve of a printing of the Scriptures in the language of the common people. Afraid that the people might realize how very wrong the RCC had become and still is.

Such men as Luther, Huss, Tyndall, and so many others were persecuted and even slain by those who would put power and authority over the truth of Scriptures.

The Pope is our head Bishop. Don't you have Bishops or other leaders of your particular Christian sect? Or is the individual believer supposed to wing it by themselves?

 

[Adonia]

Actually,

If you new anything about the Scripture, you would acknowledge that people like Luther and Tyndall used the available Latin, Greek, ... transcripts that were archived and produced by the Roman church and available even to this day, online. They both were Roman Catholics before the papist turned on them.

I suggest you drag out your catholic authorized version and diligently compare it to the NASB or even the RSV. You will have to admit to the truth, that these are accurate and consistent.

Oh i see, the real truth didn't come about until the KJV was invented? Yeah, right. Luther had to change the Bible to conform to his new ideas of what the scriptures really meant to tell us - that's it in a nutshell.

 

[utilyan]

Wiki and google don't help me. They say the pope is infallible. He cannot err.

But yet we see him needing correction.

I don't think there is an answer. Just a bunch of Catholics who would much rather talk about something else.

Catholics don't have a teaching that says the pope cannot err.

Honestly I think your intelligent and not an idiot, Maybe if you read over the wiki a couple of times more or check your prescription glasses that would help set things straight.

That old saying, worst then beating a dead horse....is beating the wrong dead horse.

One guy says we worship the pope he is the highest authority, one guy says we worship mary, another says the devil....... What do they all have in common, uneducated, they don't know better.


You know i don't have to make up a lie of what you believe to point out what is wrong with it, I can have you absolutely agree to your belief and show you its wrong. These debates....piece of cake.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Pope is our head Bishop. Don't you have Bishops or other leaders of your particular Christian sect? Or is the individual believer supposed to wing it by themselves?

Where is the scripture that tells us that peter was seen as being the first Pope, as he was NEVER said to be such in the Bible, but as one of the Apostles period!

 

[church mouse guy]

Look, even the Encyclopedia Britannica says that the pope has to speak ex cathedra to be considered infallible. This pope did not speak ex cathedra on anything. I haven't check the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia New Advent, but I can try. Here is what Britannica says:

The definition of the first Vatican Council (1869–70), established amid considerable controversy, states the conditions under which a pope may be said to have spoken infallibly, or ex cathedra (“from his chair” as supreme teacher). It is prerequisite that the pope intend to demand irrevocable assent from the entire church in some aspect of faith or morals.

 

[church mouse guy]

Here, in part, is what the Roman Catholic Church says about infallibility and its definition:

infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act of the pope, but only to his ex cathedra teaching; and the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree:

It is clear that this pope did not make any official statements but merely expressed his own opinions, which were against all traditional Christian teachings.

If you want to see an authoritative doctrinal statement of papal statements and infallibility, go to New Advent, which quotes the entire doctrinal statement:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Infallibility

 

[Bro. Curtis]

So the popes opinions contradict the what he's supposed to be teaching ? That's just silly. If "infallible" was his only title, maybe you would have a point. But he is called "Holy", ain't he ? Even when he's not speaking "ex-cathedra". How does a "Holy" being become error prone ?

 

[Yeshua1]

Look, even the Encyclopedia Britannica says that the pope has to speak ex cathedra to be considered infallible. This pope did not speak ex cathedra on anything. I haven't check the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia New Advent, but I can try. Here is what Britannica says:

The definition of the first Vatican Council (1869–70), established amid considerable controversy, states the conditions under which a pope may be said to have spoken infallibly, or ex cathedra (“from his chair” as supreme teacher). It is prerequisite that the pope intend to demand irrevocable assent from the entire church in some aspect of faith or morals.

The problem here is That ONLY the scriptures can speak to us infallible today!