Those who are Christians but who don't believe in the TRINTY

[PASTOR MHG]

The bad theology of "oneness" is not a denial of the deity of Christ but a denial of the trinity. They believe that Jesus is the Father and that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. As far as the deity of christ is concerned they are not in error...they are in error to deny that the other two persons of the Godhead are not existant as well.

So if your test is the Deity of Christ...they past the test...however are doctrinaly in error after the fact.

And if they pass the deity test...they are saved...as your scriture about the "doctrine of Christ" stated.

Max

 

[SavedbyHISGrace]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
SavedbyHISGrace, your posts did not state or lead anyone to think you were referring to post-conversion.

If you were to read what I have written, it is clear that I am speaking of post-conversion, as I speak of those who have been saved, and then believe what they will. The OP deals with those who are already supposed to have been saved, not those seeking salvation. It is these that are said to not accept the teaching of the Holy Trinity. I am fully in agreement that when someone is saved, they will have many incorrect views of different things in the Bible. But, if, after some time they have been saved, they have not moved on to believe in the Trinity, Deity of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, the Resurrection of Jesus, the Infallibility and Inerrancy of the Bible, then one has to question whether they were indeed saved in the first place. No one can remanin in their pre-converted state in their theology, and yet be thought of as being truly born again.

Heretical doctrines does NOT bar someone from becoming a Christian. But, heresy in the life of someone who has been born again of the Holy Spirit, is not compatable. In this case it is evident that they were not saved. The Holy Spirit can ONLY lead us into the Truth, and NOT into any falsehood.

 

[RightFromWrong]

WEBDOG Said, There are plenty of believers that believe in bad theology. For instance, I don't believe in calvinism. They claim Christ died only for a certain group, I believe Christ died for all. Clearly two HUGE differences in theology. Would I claim calvinists are not saved? No. The Church of Christ believes baptism is a necessity for salvation. I don't believe that is scriptural, and wrong. Would I ever claim all people who believe this are not saved? No. Satan is the author of confusion, which plenty of denominations are, but God uses this, too, for His glory. The requirements for eternal life are "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED". By adding "believing in truthful doctrine" to this minimizes Christ's death, and in itself is false doctrine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AMEN I also agree with the Pastor who asked Savebygrace for any scripture verses.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Savedbygrace so are those who believe they can lose their salvation are they saved ? I see you totally ignored that one

 

[TexasSky]

The Trinity is a very complicated theology, and it isn't an easy theology either. You can't just pick up your bible, turn to Chapter 1, vs 30, and read, "Father, Son and Holy Ghost," like we are so used to reciting.

I think it is very possible for someone to be saved without beginning to understand this complicated concept.

The bible itself says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." It does not mention, by name, in that verse, the Father or the Holy Spirit. As you come to know God, you begin to understand that to believe Jesus Christ is to believe in God the Father, and it is also to believe in Christ's promise regarding the "comforter" what came after Christ. It is to accept, on Christ's words, that these are all a part of the being of God.

That is "advanced" Christianity though. Senior level stuff.

The first and most important step to salvation is belief that Jesus Christ is the Savior and to trust in Him.

The rest will follow in due time.

 

[SavedbyHISGrace]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SavedbyHISGrace:
I totally disagree with those who suppose that you can be saved by denying the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. True, we are saved by grace, but, once a person is truly born agian by the Holy Spirit, they WILL believe in the Trinity, as the Spirit will make sure of this.

As much as I abhor the rejection of belief in the Trinity, I don't think I agree with your statement.

I've known a lot of people who got saved before they ever cracked open a bible. And some of those did not have a full reasnable understanding of doctrinal issues, including the trinity, until many years had gone by. One person didn't even accept the trinity until he had been saved 20 years.

It's incomprehensible that a person must accept all Christian doctrine as a salvific requirement immediately upon conversion. It can take many many years to study scripture and come to a reasonably full understanding of Christian doctrines. Heck, there are learned men in their 80's who were saved all of their adult life, who are still arguing doctrine.

I will agree with PastorSBC. We're saved by grace, not by theology. If bad theology barrs from heaven, then most of us won't make it for one reason or another. </font>[/QUOTE]I see that you have not understood what I have said in the portion that you quote.

Read here: "True, we are saved by grace, but, once a person is truly born agian by the Holy Spirit, they WILL believe in the Trinity, as the Spirit will make sure of this"

Right. A person is saved even though they might be the biggest heretics. BUT, if they REMAIN in their heresies, months, and even years down the road, then they cannot be saved. You are undermining the post-conversion work of the Holy Spirit, if you assume that after you are saved, you can still believe what you like. No, this is impossible. If you are truly born again, like I have been, then you will NOT but accept what the Bible teaches, like the Holy Trinity, etc.

No one who professes to be a true believer in Jesus Christ, can deny that He is Almighty God!

 

[just-want-peace]

It's incomprehensible that a person must accept all Christian doctrine as a salvific requirement immediately upon conversion. It can take many many years to study scripture and come to a reasonably full understanding of Christian doctrines. Heck, there are learned men in their 80's who were saved all of their adult life, who are still arguing doctrine.

Yeah, what Johnv said!

I've been toying with how to respond to this topic, and Johnv summed it up pretty well, so I'll just "ditto" his comments.

 

[SavedbyHISGrace]

Originally posted by PASTOR MHG:
The bad theology of "oneness" is not a denial of the deity of Christ but a denial of the trinity. They believe that Jesus is the Father and that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. As far as the deity of christ is concerned they are not in error...they are in error to deny that the other two persons of the Godhead are not existant as well.

So if your test is the Deity of Christ...they past the test...however are doctrinaly in error after the fact.

And if they pass the deity test...they are saved...as your scriture about the "doctrine of Christ" stated.

Max

Let me give me another Scripture.

"Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son, has the Father also" (1 John 2:22-23)

Here we read of two denials. The first is those who denied that Jesus was also the Christ, and separated them into two Persons. Then we have those who rejected the unity of the Father and the Son, and baing in the Trinity. It is clear from here, that you cannot deny the Trinity either, and be saved!

Are you saying that you can?

 

[RightFromWrong]

I am amazed how some people have a hard time thinking outside the box.

If a person gets saved and I mean really saved. And he believes in the Trinity. But after a few years listens to some heretic who explains why and what they believe in a way that makes perfect human sense. And he " Intellectualy " believes it, then all of a sudden isn't saved ?

Why is it so hard to understand how this can happen ? Happens all the time ! Why do you think we have the name it claim it groups and other denominations who go off on sound doctrine.

" FOR BY THE GRACE OF GOD THERE GO I "

 

[SavedbyHISGrace]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
The Trinity is a very complicated theology, and it isn't an easy theology either. You can't just pick up your bible, turn to Chapter 1, vs 30, and read, "Father, Son and Holy Ghost," like we are so used to reciting.

I think it is very possible for someone to be saved without beginning to understand this complicated concept.

The bible itself says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." It does not mention, by name, in that verse, the Father or the Holy Spirit. As you come to know God, you begin to understand that to believe Jesus Christ is to believe in God the Father, and it is also to believe in Christ's promise regarding the "comforter" what came after Christ. It is to accept, on Christ's words, that these are all a part of the being of God.

That is "advanced" Christianity though. Senior level stuff.

The first and most important step to salvation is belief that Jesus Christ is the Savior and to trust in Him.

The rest will follow in due time.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS ABOUT POST CONVERSION

 

[ChrisTag]

I can't speak for others who have responded, but I wasn't talking about those who don't understand the concept of the Trinity. Like many have said, the Trinity is a tough subject to comprehend. But that doesn't change the fact that a person must believe that Jesus is God to be saved. If they believe that Jesus is God yet they don't believe in the Trinity, they must be polytheistic.

I thought these two men understood the concept of the Trinity; they just didn't believe it.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Sorry have to go be back later

 

[SavedbyHISGrace]

Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
I am amazed how some people have a hard time thinking outside the box.

If a person gets saved and I mean really saved. And he believes in the Trinity. But after a few years listens to some heretic who explains why and what they believe in a way that makes perfect human sense. And he " Intellectualy " believes it, then all of a sudden isn't saved ?

Why is it so hard to understand how this can happen ? Happens all the time ! Why do you think we have the name it claim it groups and other denominations who go off on sound doctrine.

" FOR BY THE GRACE OF GOD THERE GO I "

You are mistaken. A person who is truly saved, will not accept a teaching that says that Jesus is not God, or that He did not rise from the dead, or that the Holy Bible is not the Word of God. NO, this is imposible.

Take, for example, Dr Clarke Pinnock. Highly regarded for many years as a solid Evangelical Christian, who wrote many works that would support this. He now teaches that God does not know the future, which basically means that God is no longer all knowing, and therefore, not really God. Can anyone say that this man, with these views which clearly are heretical, can be considered as saved? No!

 

[TexasSky]

ChrisTag,

I have met Mormons who teach something similar to what I think you are saying these men teach. They tend to have a lot of respect for Christ, but when you get right down to it, they deny the diety of Christ.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Originally posted by SavedbyHISGrace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PASTOR MHG:
The bad theology of "oneness" is not a denial of the deity of Christ but a denial of the trinity. They believe that Jesus is the Father and that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. As far as the deity of christ is concerned they are not in error...they are in error to deny that the other two persons of the Godhead are not existant as well.

So if your test is the Deity of Christ...they past the test...however are doctrinaly in error after the fact.

And if they pass the deity test...they are saved...as your scriture about the "doctrine of Christ" stated.

Max

Let me give me another Scripture.

"Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son, has the Father also" (1 John 2:22-23)

Here we read of two denials. The first is those who denied that Jesus was also the Christ, and separated them into two Persons. Then we have those who rejected the unity of the Father and the Son, and baing in the Trinity. It is clear from here, that you cannot deny the Trinity either, and be saved!

Are you saying that you can? </font>[/QUOTE]No, I happen to agree with you on this point. I am simply saying that being confused about the concept of the trinity is not uncommon. My example was the "oneness pentacostals"/modalism...does not deny the Father and the Holy Spirit, they simply say that Jesus fulfills all of those rolls himself.

I don't agree with their theology, They believe in the Deity of Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit...they just believe they are all the same...Jesus fulfilling all three rolls.

Max

 

[ChrisTag]

Well, I don't these men, so I can't say for sure, but that's exactly what I was getting at - they come across as ic to me. I don't think it's that they don't understand the Trinity. I think it's that they choose not to believe in the Trinity. You can't have it both ways - either Christ is God and a part of the Trinity or He's not. If He's not, then we have a big problem. It's not just a theology problem, either.

 

[Helen]

I heard an interesting argument for the Trinity not long ago. John tells us the God, by very nature, is love. Love requires an object. Someone, or at least something, must be loved. Love does not exist as a floating sort of cloud. Therefore, if God did not NEED man, and He didn't, the object of His love must have existed as a separate person or persons. And yet there is one God. If God were not a Trinity, therefore, He could not be love. He would have needed man. If He created us because He NEEDED us, then He did a very sloppy job of it, giving us free will to love or not love Him back.

If He is perfect, which He is, then He did not do a sloppy job of anything. If He is complete, which He is, then He did not need man. If He is love, which He is, then the object of His love existed as a separate person or persons within Himself.

I like the logic...

I never had doubts about the Trinity anyway, but I like the logic of that.

 

[SavedbyHISGrace]

Brother Max

I understand what you are saying here. However, there must be some conclusive teaching from Scripture, as to whether the Godhead is Trinitarian, or Oneness? Further, can a person deny the teaching of the Trinity, and yet be considered as a true believer? The Oneness teaching is in direct contradiction to what the Bible teaches.

Note, Matthew 28:19, where Jesus says:

"...baptizing them into the Name, of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit"

Here we have the singular Name, YHWH, God, and yet the Persons so mentioned are yet distinct. You see, in the Greek, each Person mentioned here, is with the definite article, which is used when a distinction is intended. However, the unity of these Three Persons, is that they have the One Name, YHWH.

Likewise in John 10:30, Jesus says: "I and the Father are one". Where "I" and "The Father (ho Pater), two Persons, which is also seen in the use of the masculine plural, "We are" (esmsn), and then we have the singular neuter, "hen", literally, "one thing". Not a unity of "will" as some suppose, but as can be seen from the preceeding verses(no one can snatch them out of My hand...My Father's hand), we have a unity of "essence" here.

These and many other Scriptures clearly destroys the heresy of Oneness.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Originally posted by SavedbyHISGrace:
Brother Max

I understand what you are saying here. However, there must be some conclusive teaching from Scripture, as to whether the Godhead is Trinitarian, or Oneness? Further, can a person deny the teaching of the Trinity, and yet be considered as a true believer? The Oneness teaching is in direct contradiction to what the Bible teaches.

Note, Matthew 28:19, where Jesus says:

"...baptizing them into the Name, of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit"

Here we have the singular Name, YHWH, God, and yet the Persons so mentioned are yet distinct. You see, in the Greek, each Person mentioned here, is with the definite article, which is used when a distinction is intended. However, the unity of these Three Persons, is that they have the One Name, YHWH.

Likewise in John 10:30, Jesus says: "I and the Father are one". Where "I" and "The Father (ho Pater), two Persons, which is also seen in the use of the masculine plural, "We are" (esmsn), and then we have the singular neuter, "hen", literally, "one thing". Not a unity of "will" as some suppose, but as can be seen from the preceeding verses(no one can snatch them out of My hand...My Father's hand), we have a unity of "essence" here.

These and many other Scriptures clearly destroys the heresy of Oneness.

I agree with you brother. All I am saying is a person that is not studied and grounded properly could be confused by something like this.

Max

 

[SavedbyHISGrace]

Originally posted by Helen:
I heard an interesting argument for the Trinity not long ago. John tells us the God, by very nature, is love. Love requires an object. Someone, or at least something, must be loved. Love does not exist as a floating sort of cloud. Therefore, if God did not NEED man, and He didn't, the object of His love must have existed as a separate person or persons. And yet there is one God. If God were not a Trinity, therefore, He could not be love. He would have needed man. If He created us because He NEEDED us, then He did a very sloppy job of it, giving us free will to love or not love Him back.

If He is perfect, which He is, then He did not do a sloppy job of anything. If He is complete, which He is, then He did not need man. If He is love, which He is, then the object of His love existed as a separate person or persons within Himself.

I like the logic...

I never had doubts about the Trinity anyway, but I like the logic of that.

Hi, I doubt very much that anyone can use this as an argument to show that Scripture teaches that God is a Trinity. God can be Unipersonal, and yet love His creation, like the Angels, who have been around long before us.

The Trinity can only be understood, by the work of the Holy Spirit in the believers heart and mind, and not by argument alone.