Three People in the God head??? It is what the Bible teaches!

Why not? My guess is you are trying too hard.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)

That's it! It's that simple! There's no reason to ask any questions and there's nothing to explain! There are 3 and yet those 3 are one.

[ May 29, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

The Father.
The Son.
The Holy Spirit.

All 3 equal.

All 3 with different roles in our ssalvation.

The following is from a paper I did on the subject.....

The Work of the Trinity in Salvation – Page 5-6 ; In chronological order write a 200 word summary of the Trinity’s work in salvation: ( For your understanding, it is important that you write in chronological order). You may also quote scripture in your summary. However, your thoughts must be reflected.

The Father; God designed his plan for salvation before the creation. (Eph 1:4) God wants all of us to be saved.(2Peter 3:9) But he knew who would receive this gift. Those he foreknew, he wants to make like his son. Predestination deals with what we will become, a Child of God. Adopted with Jesus Christ(Eph 1:5). Acts 9:13-16 tells us how Ananias was afraid of Paul, due to his previous dealings with the New Testament Church. But God reassured him, saying; “ he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name…” Before Adam, God had chosen Paul, predestinating him to be his servant. The call refers to the gospel being told to those he has chosen, resulting in the salvation of the believer (Romans 10:17).

The Son; Jeremiah 31:31 tells of a “New Covenant”, that will include all of mankind. God gave his son life (John 5:26), of himself, with the authority to give life (27). Jesus came to Earth in human form (John 1:14). He is God the Son (John 10:30), but was commanded, by his father, to lay down his life (John 10:18) In the beginning, it was God’s plan to have his son die for the sins of the world.(John 18:11) He died for our sins, beat death by the resurrection (Psalm 16:10, Luke 24), and received all power, authority, literally “all things” to him.(John 3:35)

The Holy Spirit; John 14:17 tells us that Christians have the Holy Spirit inside them, verses 16&17 explain the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to comfort us, verse 26 tells us also it is to keep our savior’s teachings with us. The Holy Spirit causes us to see the truth, convict us of our sins, and realize our need for a savior.(John 16:7-11).We become “Born again” given a new life. (Titus 3:5) 2Corinthians 5:17 tells us we are no longer the same person we were before. This change gives us victory over sin. We will be kept “…blameless unto the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ” 1Thess 5:23

Also...from my Preservation study.

It is God the father’s plan.(Romans 8:28-30) Predestinating us to be his children, calling us into his service, justifying us righteous thru our faith, and glorifying us in Heaven. No power could separate us from his love.(Romans 8:38&39) Being God’s own children, we should realize his endless love thru his chastening.(Hebrews 12:1-11)

Christ promises to keep us, telling us we are “…passed from death to life”(John 5:24). “…him that cometh to me I will no wise cast out.”(John 6:37) He prayed for us, for his father to “…keep thru thine own name those which thou hast given me.”(John 17:11) Christ’s death satisfied God.(Isaiah 53:11) Christ’s resurrection glorified God.(Romans 6:4) He is our advocate (1John 2:1), and our intercessor.(Hebrews 7:25) Jesus will represent us in front of the throne of God.

The Holy Spirit has made us a new person.(John 3:6) Joined together, (united), with Christ.(Romans 6:5) He will keep and protect us “…unto the day of redemption.”(Ephesians 5:30) He will allow us to resist sin,(Ephesians 3:16) interpret our feelings which can’t be put into words.(Romans 8:26)

 

Norman, Norman, Norman.

People are starting to notice that you're avoiding my question: Who took the book from the right hand of Him that sits on the throne?

Norman, please quote the entire verse of Revelation 5:6--not just the part you like. See, there's this grammatical thing called a "conjunction"; you may have heard of it. It connects two or more things, and makes them a group. In the case of Rev 5:6, it says the Lamb was in the midst of the throne and the four beasts and the elders.

Deny that all you want, but it's there for everyone to see.

 

"People are starting to notice that you're avoiding my question: Who took the book from the right hand of Him that sits on the throne?

Norman, please quote the entire verse of Revelation 5:6--not just the part you like. See, there's this grammatical thing called a "conjunction"; you may have heard of it. It connects two or more things, and makes them a group. In the case of Rev 5:6, it says the Lamb was in the midst of the throne and the four beasts and the elders."'

Yes, it says the Lamb was in the midst of the throne and the four beasts etc. but did you not notice the four beasts stood round about the throne? Does it say that or not? So if the Lamb was in the midst of the throne, the certainly the Lamb would be in the midst of whatever was round about the throne.
I think I did answer your question; the Lamb took the book from the hand of the one that sat on the throne; but can you answer a question? Someone else commented on this; can you explain why a Lamb, an animal, would take the book from the one that was on the throne? Do you think John's vision was to be understood as a literal animal taking a book ? Or did it represent the sacrifice on the cross?

 

Mr. Curtis,
I think I can agree with everything you said, but can you point out what it is that makes the Father and the Holy Spirit two distinct "persons"? Are you not aware that the Holy Spirit is also referred to as the Spirit of Christ?

Does anybody want to challenge what I said about Elohim? Or would you prefer to ignore it?

 

SolaScriptura,

The words after “heaven” in verse 7 through “earth” in verse 8, are not contained in any Greek manuscript before the 16th century. So they can’t be used as a proof text for a trinity.

 

Weak. Who is the Word? That's right: Jesus. Therefore, there are three tha bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word/Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The second reason that's weak is because if you can somehow make a compelling case that the Word is not Jesus, you still have to admit that there's at least the Father and the Holy Spirit in heaven bearing record--and by last count, that's two.

Norm, Oneness, this is like pulling teeth, and it's annoying: Who is the Lamb? Yes, you mentioned Christ. So what you're trying to say is that Christ took the book out of His own right hand.

Look back a few verses at Rev 4:6 -- "and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

So now, by your logic, the beasts, which were in the midst of the throne, were also sitting on the throne with the Lamb and with God?

Rev 4:4 says "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats"; so what you're saying is that the Lamb and the beasts were "in the midst of the elders"?

Or do you simply wish to switch to the "it's only a dream" argument?

The dream represents something else we're told unequivocably in the scriptures: Jesus sits at the right hand of He who sits on the throne.

Sorry, guys, but I ain't buyin' what you're selling.

And Oneness, why shouldn't I be a little upset? You come in with a title for a thread like the one you originally used, and I should just sit back and grin and say, "yuck, yuck, that's funny"?

How about I come over to one of your Pentecostal boards and start a topic called "No Trinity? How Stupid!" What kind of response do you think I'd get from your Oneness Pentecostal brethren?

 

It was never intended to make fun of what you believe, Brian. Especially not any more so than your intentions to make fun of what I believe.

When you start off with a mockery, you should expect to get one in return.

Now, you may believe what you believe; but it doesn't answer the questions I've asked you about what you believe.

And until you answer those questions, then your beliefs are founded on...nothing....

Now go be with your new wife, and ponder that for a while.

Waiting on Norm in the meantime....

 

"Look back a few verses at Rev 4:6 -- "and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

So now, by your logic, the beasts, which were in the midst of the throne, were also sitting on the throne with the Lamb and with God?"

By my logic? I just pointed out what it says. It does not say the Lamb was "round about the throne." It says in Rev. 5:6, "And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." That's not my logic, that's what it says. If you can't handle that, you are hopeless. The Lamb has the seven eyes that are teh seven Spirits of God.

Still no comments on Deut. 4:35-39?

 

I apologize to everyone; I did not intend to make myself a liar. This will be my last post for the next month (or two, or three, or more). If you really, really want to talk to me, please feel free to e-mail me.

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Oneness, I applaud your willingness to question the salvation of others who profess to know Christ. Thank you for judging our souls, and finding us wanting.

I have told you before that I have been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; I have stated that that name is Jesus.

So why do you continue to question my--and others'--baptism? Are you suddenly saying that the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is not Jesus?

That my baptism in invalid because I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?

I remind you that there were certain of the Jews who came, and stated that people must start being circumsized; and that Peter stood tall, and asked them why they were placing a yoke on the people that God never intended. And before you spout off without thinking that this has nothing to do with baptism, I humbly submit to you that it most certainly does. ANY time we make a physical act that is performed by us a "requirement" for salvation, we have re-instituted circumcision.

Think about it for a while.

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Norm, it's not my logic either. You're apparently not reading the passages in Revelations. I highly suggest you go back and read chapters 4 and 5 again.

"In the midst of the throne and the beasts and the elders"

When you use the conjunction, you group things together. So, if I accept you literally and say that the Lamb was the one sitting on the throne, then I have to agree that the beasts and the elders were sitting on the throne as well.

I see that you never ever answered "who took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne"; rather, both you and Oneness took the vision that John had, and the words that he put down in writing to convey what he saw in that vision, and are trying to downplay what John wrote by stating that "it was a vision."

The reason you won't answer, Norm, is because you would have to admit that the Lamb (Jesus) is the one that took the book out of the hand of He who sits on the throne. You'd have to admit that in John's vision, v.7 says the Lamb "came and took the book." And that throws a kink into your belief system, because then you have to admit that this vision indicates that there are two persons involved....

Sorry, but I don't see how Deuteronomy 4:35-39 is supposed to support your statements.

Norm, Oneness, take a look at Jesus' own words: "My father who sent me." (John 5:23, 30, 36, 37; John 6:44, 57; John 8:16) "My Father, who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16, 45, 48; Matthew 6:1; Matthew 7:11, 21; Matthew 10:32, 33; Matthew 12:50; Matthew 16:17; Matthew 18:10; Matthew 23:9; the list goes on through Mark, Luke, and John, but takes up much more space).

Gentlemen, there is absolutely no denying that Jesus was God in the flesh. No denying it at all.

There is absolutely no denying that God is spirit. No denying it at all.

There is also absolutely no denying that Jesus--God in the flesh--also stated that He was the Son of God, and that while He was in the flesh, walking on our earth, God was His Father and was also in heaven at the same time.

In other words, two "persons" existing in two different places at the same exact time.

Absolutely no denying at all that Jesus stated this, and therefore should be considered as fact.

Feel free to try to deny it; but scripture proves otherwise.

This, gentlemen, is the basis for the fact that there is a Trinity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Three persons, who are actually one, but being separate at the same time.

I'm sorry you refuse to see this.

But you know what? You both indicate that you've been saved by the grace of Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, and (I assume) you've both repented and confessed that there is no other name under heaven by which we are saved.

In that regard, you can deny the Trinity all you want--and I won't question your salvation.

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As I stated, this is my last post for a while. If you want to contact me, please feel free to e-mail me.

 

Just one more thing about the Trinity, we do acknowledge that there is a Father, Son (Word made flesh) and Holy Spirit; we just think it's incorrect to refer to these as distinct "persons."
The word "person" seems to indicate physical limitations, which God does not have.

This is kinda changing the subject, but what do the four beasts stading "in the midst and round about" the throne represent? this was a vision John had, right? Are will there actually be "beasts" (animals) around the throne of God?

 

Hey Norman, I hope you find out, then maybe we can know the reason why God chose "four and twenty elders" that are representing *The Church.* I mean, why twenty-four? Maybe we need a new topic!

MEE

 

MEE, the generally accepted point of view on that is, 12 elders representing the tribes of Israel; 12 representing the apostles.

the generally accepted point of view, mind you.

 

I've heard that also, but I don't think that anyone, under the Law, was ever referred to as an "elder." So, that would leave out Israel.

Look at these scriptures:

1 Tim.1:17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Cor. 6:2-3
2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

11 Tim. 2:12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

So, in the above scriptures, it looks as though it is talking about "The Church" or "The
Bride" and not the OT saints.

Any comments?
MEE