Timing of the Rapture

[Silverhair]

Scripture is very clear concerning those issues as well.

Paul stated in Ephesians there is now no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Both groups have been made into “one new man” by the Cross of Christ and both now have access to God through God Holy Spirit, not through ceremonial sacrifices or earthly priests.

For there to be a separate future for national Israel, the “one new man” must be separated again and the work of Christ in the cross that bound them together must be undone. That is not possible.

Additionally, Paul’s discourse in Romans reveals the descendants of Abraham are not counted according to the flesh, but are children “of the promise”, made up of both Jew and Gentile and together they make up “The Israel of God”.

Revelation 20 (1000 year reign) is, in context, a reward for those martyred during the tribulation. They will reign with Christ for 1000 year. There is no mention of that reign being on earth. Christ reigns in heaven.

Hope that helps your understanding

peace to you

As I have said more than once there are scholars that hold to the pre, mid, post and other views of the end times. Everything that you said in your post is contradicted by some of those scholars.

You are welcome to hold to whatever view you wish but to claim that all others must be wrong is a step to far for anyone to make as the bible is not as clear as you seem to think or you would not have the differing views would you.

Even your view that the souls reigned with Christ in heaven is not the only view and it is just speculation as to which is the correct one.

The only way that the Jews or Gentiles are made into the new man is when they freely trust in Christ Jesus. So logically that is not the work of Christ being separated as they were not joined in the first place.

 

[Silverhair]

Read the end of Matthew 24 and the parables of Matthew 25. Jesus did not leave them unaware.

(Matthew 24:36-51)
“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes. “Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left. Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left. “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected. “A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 25:1-13)
“Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. The five who were foolish didn’t take enough olive oil for their lamps, but the other five were wise enough to take along extra oil. When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. “At midnight they were roused by the shout, ‘Look, the bridegroom is coming! Come out and meet him!’ “All the bridesmaids got up and prepared their lamps. Then the five foolish ones asked the others, ‘Please give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.’ “But the others replied, ‘We don’t have enough for all of us. Go to a shop and buy some for yourselves.’ “But while they were gone to buy oil, the bridegroom came. Then those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was locked. Later, when the other five bridesmaids returned, they stood outside, calling, ‘Lord! Lord! Open the door for us!’ “But he called back, ‘Believe me, I don’t know you!’ “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.

We all must remain diligent and ready for the hour when He comes for us.

Are you ready, Silverhair?

@taisto, do you live in anticipation of Christ immanent return? If so how do you square that with the view that you are putting forward?

How do you account for the 7 years, the wars, the 1000 yr reign of Christ. Logically you can not be living in anticipation of Christ's immanent return as none of those things have happened yet.

 

[37818]

. . . both Jew and Gentile and together they make up “The Israel of God”.

Ah, no. Only those of the circumcision are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16, ". . . For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. . . ." Both are in Christ. Them the uncircumcision and the Israel of God the circumcision.

The equality is in Christ. Being Abraham's seed. Calatians 3:29, ". . . And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. . . ." And Ephesians 2:12, ". . . That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: . . ."


So what has not changed is,
Genesis 17:13, ". . . He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. . . ."

 

[canadyjd]

As I have said more than once there are scholars that hold to the pre, mid, post and other views of the end times. Everything that you said in your post is contradicted by some of those scholars.

You are welcome to hold to whatever view you wish but to claim that all others must be wrong is a step to far for anyone to make as the bible is not as clear as you seem to think or you would not have the differing views would you.

Even your view that the souls reigned with Christ in heaven is not the only view and it is just speculation as to which is the correct one.

The only way that the Jews or Gentiles are made into the new man is when they freely trust in Christ Jesus. So logically that is not the work of Christ being separated as they were not joined in the first place.

I see you keep avoiding the very clear teaching of our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and take the view that since “scholars disagree” then everything is speculation despite the very clear words from our Lord that He returns “after the tribulation”.

I also notice that when I corrected your erroneous assertion that 1 Thessalonians 4 taught a pre-trib rapture you simply moved on to the next erroneous argument.

Scripture is also clear there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. For you to claim the two groups were not joined in the first place is a direct contradiction of what the Apostle Paul taught in Ephesians and elsewhere.

No wonder some view sound doctrine as “speculation”. They simply disregard everything they disagree with and refuse to acknowledge when they have been corrected with scripture in context.

Confusion and speculation will always mark the beliefs of some such as these.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I see you keep avoiding the very clear teaching of our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and take the view that since “scholars disagree” then everything is speculation despite the very clear words from our Lord that He returns “after the tribulation”.

I also notice that when I corrected your erroneous assertion that 1 Thessalonians 4 taught a pre-trib rapture you simply moved on to the next erroneous argument.

Scripture is also clear there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. For you to claim the two groups were not joined in the first place is a direct contradiction of what the Apostle Paul taught in Ephesians and elsewhere.

No wonder some view sound doctrine as “speculation”. They simply disregard everything they disagree with and refuse to acknowledge when they have been corrected with scripture in context.

Confusion and speculation will always mark the beliefs of some such as these.

peace to you

Excuse me but have I said that Christ does not return after the tribulation? NO What I have said more than once is that not all scholars agree with your view of the end times.

Since you do not agree with the rapture I will ask you the same question I put to @taisto but which he has failed to address. Perhaps you will?

@canadyjd do you live in anticipation of Christ's immanent return? If so how do you square that with the view that you are putting forward?

As I said only those that have freely trusted in Christ are the new man do you not agree with this? The distinction that Paul is referring to is that all can be saved through faith in the risen Christ Jesus. The Jews thought that only they could be saved so Paul is correcting that errant view.

Are you saying that all Jews and all Gentiles are now members of the same group? If you are then you are either a universalist or you are saying that no one is saved, your choice.

If you were presenting sound doctrine that would not be a problem but you are just presenting your view which as I have said more than once many scholars disagree with. Do you think all those scholars were not presenting what they considered sound doctrine? Have you ever stopped to think you could be wrong?

 

[taisto]

@canadyjd, I answered Silverhair in post #280. He just won't acknowledge the answer or perhaps he just doesn't understand the answer I provided.

At this point, he knows the answer, but he just keeps posting because...well I have no idea why he posts.

 

[Silverhair]

@canadyjd, I answered Silverhair in post #280. He just won't acknowledge the answer or perhaps he just doesn't understand the answer I provided.

At this point, he knows the answer, but he just keeps posting because...well I have no idea why he posts.

@taisto I don't think you understood the question. Care to try again?

Do you live in anticipation of Christ's immanent return? If so how do you square that with the view that you are putting forward?

I continue to ask questions because I am hoping that you will come to see how illogical your view is in light of scripture.

 

[taisto]

@taisto I don't think you understood the question. Care to try again?

Do you live in anticipation of Christ's immanent return? If so how do you square that with the view that you are putting forward?

I continue to ask questions because I am hoping that you will come to see how illogical your view is in light of scripture.

I don't think you understood how the answer gave you the answer to the question. Wanna try reading the Bible again?

 

[Silverhair]

I don't think you understood how the answer gave you the answer to the question. Wanna try reading the Bible again?

So you just avoid the question? If you view is correct you should have no problem with the question.

Do you live in anticipation of Christ's immanent return? YES or NO

If you do then how do you @taisto square that with the view?

You can choose not to answer the question here but you should actually think it through and answer it for yourself.

 

[taisto]

So you just avoid the question? If you view is correct you should have no problem with the question.

Do you live in anticipation of Christ's immanent return? YES or NO

If you do then how do you @taisto square that with the view?

You can choose not to answer the question here but you should actually think it through and answer it for yourself.

So you just avoid the answer I gave?
I cannot tell if you are choosing ignorance of the answer or if you are simply ignorant of the Bible's answer to you. Which one is it?

 

[kyredneck]

Why do you say these are “speculation”, a 1000 year earthly kingdom, and a separate future for national Israel and the church.

Paul stated in Ephesians there is now no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Right. 'No distinction'.

"There’s ‘literally’ NO distinction made between the two, the two have now been made one:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3"

 

[canadyjd]

……
@canadyjd do you live in anticipation of Christ's immanent return? If so how do you square that with the view that you are putting forward?….?

Not sure why you believe there is anything to “square”. Jesus very clearly taught we should live our lives as if He could return at any moment.

He also taught He would return after a great tribulation.

Many fail to see what is happening beyond their own little sphere. When you look at the reports of Christian persecution around the world, one could easily surmise we are living in the great tribulation even now…. Such as never had been seen before due to the sheer magnitude of the persecution.

Even in the US Christian’s and Christianity are under assault. Did you read about the trans woman (thought she was a man) killing 6 at a Christian school including 3 children. Why have the “officials” not released her “manifesto”? Because they know she deliberately targeted Christians and children of Christians. What a horrid state of tribulation when Christian children are targeted for slaughter.

So, live as if Christ could return at any moment.

Hope that helps you understand

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

So you just avoid the answer I gave?
I cannot tell if you are choosing ignorance of the answer or if you are simply ignorant of the Bible's answer to you. Which one is it?

Still will not answer a simple question. You really do not have any answers do you.

 

[Silverhair]

Not sure why you believe there is anything to “square”. Jesus very clearly taught we should live our lives as if He could return at any moment.

He also taught He would return after a great tribulation.

Many fail to see what is happening beyond their own little sphere. When you look at the reports of Christian persecution around the world, one could easily surmise we are living in the great tribulation even now…. Such as never had been seen before due to the sheer magnitude of the persecution.

Even in the US Christian’s and Christianity are under assault. Did you read about the trans woman (thought she was a man) killing 6 at a Christian school including 3 children. Why have the “officials” not released her “manifesto”? Because they know she deliberately targeted Christians and children of Christians. What a horrid state of tribulation when Christian children are targeted for slaughter.

So, live as if Christ could return at any moment.

Hope that helps you understand

peace to you

Well if you think this is the tribulation then you will really be shocked when you have to go through the real thing as your view would have you going through it right. I do hope the faith you have been given is real and does not prove to be fleeting as we know many will fall away when they are tested.

 

[canadyjd]

Well if you think this is the tribulation then you will really be shocked when you have to go through the real thing as your view would have you going through it right. I do hope the faith you have been given is real and does not prove to be fleeting as we know many will fall away when they are tested.

That is the quality of your contribution to this discussion? You hope my faith is real? You hope my faith isn’t fleeting? You hope I don’t fall away when tested?

Typical, can’t debate scripture: refuse to discuss scripture: question the faith of those you cannot debate.

I’m done with you

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

There is a poster that is claiming these facts are not clearly stated, therefore it is all speculation.

I am only pointing out some things are clearly stated and there is no “speculation” about it.

I didn’t mention you, nor have you in mind at all.

peace to you

I didn't think you did I just missed anyone who believes that

 

[Silverhair]

Right. 'No distinction'.

"There’s ‘literally’ NO distinction made between the two, the two have now been made one:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3"

@kyredneck did you bother to read post # 277. This is the what I posted "a separate future for national Israel and the church." So by your post are you now a universalist. Are All Jews and All Gentiles now saved? What Paul means is that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles as all can come to Christ in faith and be saved. All that do trust in Christ will be one body but note the qualifier FAITH. So I agree with the verses that you have posted.

In post #277 beside saying that national Israel and the church had a different future I also mentioned the 1000 yr reign of Christ but @canadyjd did not deal with that either.

 

[Silverhair]

That is the quality of your contribution to this discussion? You hope my faith is real? You hope my faith isn’t fleeting? You hope I don’t fall away when tested?

Typical, can’t debate scripture: refuse to discuss scripture: question the faith of those you cannot debate.

I’m done with you

peace to you

You have indicated that you will go through the tribulation as we see in Revelation so when I say that I hope your faith is real and not fleeting so you will not fall away why do you get upset? We know that many professing Christians will fall away, would rather that I say you will?

 

[timtofly]

Revelation 20 (1000 year reign) is, in context, a reward for those martyred during the tribulation. They will reign with Christ for 1000 year. There is no mention of that reign being on earth. Christ reigns in heaven.

Why would Jesus come to earth the first time, but not come to earth ever again?

The earth was not created for only 6,000 years of sin and death. The earth was created for the glory of God. The second coming is for the glory of God.

That precept was established in the OT Covenant.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work."

That command was taken from another precedent from Genesis 1:

"For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

That is why John could clearly state a thousand year period without sin and death from decay. A thousand years without Satan. A thousand years of humans reigning on earth with and under Christ on His glorious throne in Jerusalem surrounded by the camp of the saints, those 144k, the firstfruits of the Second Coming, final harvest.

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

The word subdue also comes from Genesis 1:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

The first Sabbath was a Day of the Lord. The earth was subdued by the sons of God during the Day of the Lord.

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"

Generations plural of all living things on the Day of the Lord singular. That first day of the Lord had 6 24 hour days and a period of a thousand years.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Those sons of God good or bad did not keep living on the earth that was new after Noah's flood, but Noah and his family repopulated the earth to this very day. Peter points out the next baptism is not of water, but fire.

So the church, the sons of God from Noah until the Second Coming will not live on nor populate the earth post the Second Coming. But Jesus once on the earth will gather a final harvest to subdue the earth. The 144k are the firstfruits.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

These are not firstfruits since the Flood of Noah, ie representing the church. These are sealed alive on the earth after the Second Coming, the 5th and 6th Seals. Jesus sits on a throne in Jerusalem according to Matthew 25:31. That is not the GWT. God sits on the GWT, has since Genesis 1. The Word, Jesus, always on His right hand.

The throne in Jerusalem will be the one given to Satan for 42 months of AoD. Satan will never sit on the GWT. The sheep of Matthew 25 and the wheat of Matthew 13 go through the tribulation and wait on the sea of glass during the 42 months of Satan's AoD. These all return on white horses to the earth, not the church. The church and all sons of God wait in Paradise during the reign of Christ on that throne in Jerusalem until all things are subdued. The church, sons of God, descend from heaven as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE.

The NHNE replace the heavens and earth that return to God per Paul and John says they are found no more.

Those who go through the tribulation in safety, like Noah, remain on the earth to subdue the earth. The sons of God, like Enoch are translated out of the earth before such time of trouble, and will never return to earth to subdue the earth. Both Enoch and Noah are types, but one must understand why there is a difference throughout history. Even in Genesis there are 2 genealogies. One showing death, the other showing constant life. But even eternal life does not happen on earth. Those blessed with eternal life if not destroyed and in sheol, are enjoying that eternal life in Paradise the Garden in heaven.

The longest wait was for those redeemed waiting in Abraham's bosom for thousands of years, and we have people in modern times of a few generations arguing over if Jesus returns before or after the time of Jacob's trouble. Yes, the argument is as silly as those arguing over how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. People are not really arguing over what God has already decided or will decide. They are arguing over their own personal understanding of God's plan. The only thing that changes God's plan is prayer and repentance, not telling others what you think is going to happen.

The Day of the Lord is not about death, even though death is the last enemy. The last time death is used is when that rebel protest is consumed by fire after the thousand years and Satan is loosed to deceive once more. Those who listen and follow Satan always end up dead. Satan is cast into the LOF. Death is cast into the LOF.

Amil claim the end is the end of 6 days. Premill point out the end is after 7 days. There is no Scriptural justification to say the 7th day is actually the 5th and 6th Days, combined.

 

[timtofly]

He also taught He would return after a great tribulation.

No, that is not what the verse states.

"After the tribulation of those days."

The word great is not given. That is your personal square, that Matthew is pointing to "that" tribulation, another erroneous square of interpretation.

What is the definition of the church's tribulation as given by the majority of eschatology? Is it persecution from man, or judgment from God? What is the time of Jacob's trouble then?

Jesus already outlined the tribulation of those days in verses 4 through 13.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

This is not about tribulation lasting all the way to the end. This is saying the Gospel will be preached until the end.

And no human can endure 2,000 years of tribulation, so no one can endure for your definition of tribulation. Enduring is about the tribulation each individual must face during their time on earth. All must endure, not just a single group during a short time called Jacob's trouble. Verse 13 is not about this:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Verse 13 is about the last 1993 years since the Cross.

So after the tribulation of those days, does not demand just the time of great tribulation. It is just stating that there will be days of tribulation for the church until the Second Coming.

Matthew is not giving us the specific timing, because not even Jesus knew the specific timing. Stating the Second Coming is at a certain time after a certain period is date setting, and not even Jesus would set a date, nor period in which He would return.

The Second Coming cannot be after a specific event. The Second Coming can happen prior to a specific event, because it will not matter after Jesus is already here on the earth.