Timing of the Rapture

[canadyjd]

Well if it were as clear as you seem to think then you would not have all this disagreement would you? …..?

Jesus said, “after the tribulation” He will return in the clouds, the angels will gather the elect and then comes the great throne judgment.

That is very clearly stated by our Lord Jesus.

Why all the disagreement? I don’t know. Like I said, I don’t understand how anyone could believe anything other than what Jesus clearly stated.

And no, I do not believe salvation is at stake concerning how we view the end times.

Now, if someone claimed they were saved without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ, I would have my doubts.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Jesus said, “after the tribulation” He will return in the clouds, the angels will gather the elect and then comes the great throne judgment.

That is very clearly stated by our Lord Jesus.

Why all the disagreement? I don’t know. Like I said, I don’t understand how anyone could believe anything other than what Jesus clearly stated.

And no, I do not believe salvation is at stake concerning how we view the end times.

Now, if someone claimed they were saved without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ, I would have my doubts.

peace to you

You do realize that Christ was speaking to Jews in Mat 24. So the Jews that enter the tribulation period that actually come to trust in Christ Jesus will be saved and those that are still alive will see Him coming in the clouds and be gathered to Him. That is one version that some see in scripture but note it also says that Christ will rapture believers to be with Him prior to the tribulation. 1Th 4:13-18 So it is all speculation as to what will happen as it is not clear or there would not be any controversy would there.

Now, if someone claimed they were saved without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ, because they were chosen before the foundation of the world then I would have serious doubts about their understanding of scripture.

 

[taisto]

You do realize that Christ was speaking to Jews in Mat 24. So the Jews that enter the tribulation period that actually come to trust in Christ Jesus will be saved and those that are still alive will see Him coming in the clouds and be gathered to Him. That is one version that some see in scripture but note it also says that Christ will rapture believers to be with Him prior to the tribulation. 1Th 4:13-18 So it is all speculation as to what will happen as it is not clear or there would not be any controversy would there.

Now, if someone claimed they were saved without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ, because they were chosen before the foundation of the world then I would have serious doubts about their understanding of scripture.

Christ was addressing His disciples.
Are all Christians who are Gentiles, not disciples of Jesus?
Look at the question and see that it applies to us all.

(Matthew 24:3)
Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

 

[canadyjd]

You do realize that Christ was speaking to Jews in Mat 24. So the Jews that enter the tribulation period that actually come to trust in Christ Jesus will be saved and those that are still alive will see Him coming in the clouds and be gathered to Him. That is one version that some see in scripture but note it also says that Christ will rapture believers to be with Him prior to the tribulation. 1Th 4:13-18 So it is all speculation as to what will happen as it is not clear or there would not be any controversy would there…..

It is not “all” speculation. Jesus is very clear His 2nd coming is “after the tribulation”. Nowhere in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 is there any mention of a rapture “prior” to the tribulation. If you see the phrase “prior to the tribulation” in 1 Thessalonians, please point it out to me.

It doesn’t matter that Jesus is speaking to Jews in Matthew 24 and 25 because He is speaking of His 2nd coming and the great throne judgment. That event affects everyone.

The only “speculation” comes from those that see a pre-trib rapture, a 1000 year earthly kingdom, and a separate future for national Israel and the church.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Christ was addressing His disciples.
Are all Christians who are Gentiles, not disciples of Jesus?
Look at the question and see that it applies to us all.

(Matthew 24:3)
Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

Yes you should look at the verse, "His disciples came to him privately". I know I was not there were you?

 

[Silverhair]

It is not “all” speculation. Jesus is very clear His 2nd coming is “after the tribulation”. Nowhere in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 is there any mention of a rapture “prior” to the tribulation. If you see the phrase “prior to the tribulation” in 1 Thessalonians, please point it out to me.

It doesn’t matter that Jesus is speaking to Jews in Matthew 24 and 25 because He is speaking of His 2nd coming and the great throne judgment. That event affects everyone.

The only “speculation” comes from those that see a pre-trib rapture, a 1000 year earthly kingdom, and a separate future for national Israel and the church.

peace to you

It is all speculation as you are holding to one view others hold to various other views and all will point to scripture to support their view. It is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The answer does not matter as it will have no impact on your salvation.

As i said before: If we, Christians, are to go through the tribulations then God will protect us if we go home prior to the tribulations then that is great. But either way it will have no impact on our salvation will it?

You will find sincere Christians that hold to per, mid, post tribulation and even one on AD 70 or none at all. I do question why anyone would think that their view is the correct view when it is clear that God did not make it as clear as some would think. The only thing that should matter for the Christian is that Christ will return. So we are to, as my dad would say, keep short accounts so that we are ready when He does return.

What I am saying is that if you wish to debate which view is correct you will have to do it with someone else. It is at best just speculation.

 

[37818]

Matthew 24:29, ..". . . Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . ." And Mark 13:24, ". . . But in those days, after that tribulation, . . .". These two references are not speculations.

 

[canadyjd]

It is all speculation as you are holding to one view others hold to various other views and all will point to scripture to support their view. It is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The answer does not matter as it will have no impact on your salvation.

As i said before: If we, Christians, are to go through the tribulations then God will protect us if we go home prior to the tribulations then that is great. But either way it will have no impact on our salvation will it?

You will find sincere Christians that hold to per, mid, post tribulation and even one on AD 70 or none at all. I do question why anyone would think that their view is the correct view when it is clear that God did not make it as clear as some would think. The only thing that should matter for the Christian is that Christ will return. So we are to, as my dad would say, keep short accounts so that we are ready when He does return.

What I am saying is that if you wish to debate which view is correct you will have to do it with someone else. It is at best just speculation.

If you don’t want to debate stop posting in the thread.

It is not speculation. The words of our Lord are clear. AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

It is not like asking “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” because Jesus didn’t answer that question and give a very clear answer.

And the words of our Lord Jesus always matter. Jesus does not say we are protected from tribulation. He very clearly states the opposite…. Christians will experience tribulations… all those that desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

But, I am glad you are bowing out of the debate, since you are not really debating anyway.

You are only adding to the confusion of others by wrongly claiming our Lord wasn’t clear on the timing of His return.

peace to you

 

[taisto]

Yes you should look at the verse, "His disciples came to him privately". I know I was not there were you?

Why was this dialogue recorded in scripture if the answer given isn't for us today?

(Matthew 24:3)
Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

 

[Silverhair]

If you don’t want to debate stop posting in the thread.

It is not speculation. The words of our Lord are clear. AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

It is not like asking “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” because Jesus didn’t answer that question and give a very clear answer.

And the words of our Lord Jesus always matter. Jesus does not say we are protected from tribulation. He very clearly states the opposite…. Christians will experience tribulations… all those that desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

But, I am glad you are bowing out of the debate, since you are not really debating anyway.

You are only adding to the confusion of others by wrongly claiming our Lord wasn’t clear on the timing of His return.

peace to you

You see one thing in the text others see it differently. You just can not or rather will not accept the reality that your view as with any of the views could be right or could be wrong. That is why so many scholars have come to different conclusions.

If you are so sure of your point of view when can we expect your scholarly work to be published? Did you ever stop to think God did not make it clear as He actually wants people to expect His return at any moment?

How are my comments adding to the confusion any more than all the works that have been published?

Scholars of prophecy do not agree on all the details of future events. But the following summary is a fair representation of what many prophetic scholars believe as to the order of events:
1. The Rapture of the church (1Co_15:51-58; 1Th_4:13-18). This can occur at any time.
2. The leader of the ten European nations makes a seven-year agreement with Israel (Dan_9:26-27).
3. After three-and-one-half years, he breaks the agreement (Dan_9:27).
4. He moves to Jerusalem and sets up his image in the temple (2Th_2:3-4; Rev_13:1-18).
5. The Antichrist begins to control the world and forces all people to worship and obey him. At this time God sends great tribulation upon the earth (Mat_24:21).
6. The nations gather at Armageddon to fight the Antichrist and Israel, but see the sign of Christ’s coming and unite to fight Him (Zec_12:1-14; Rev_13:13-14; Rev_19:11).
7. Jesus returns to the earth, defeats His enemies, is received by the Jews, and establishes His kingdom on earth (Rev_19:11; Zech. 12:7-13:1). He will reign on earth for 1,000 years (Rev_20:1-5).

The purpose of prophecy is not to entertain the curious, but to encourage the consecrated. Jesus closed this section of His discourse with three practical admonitions, built around three illustrations: a fig tree, Noah, and a thief in the night. Mat_24:36 makes it clear that no one will know the day or the hour of the Lord’s coming. But they can be aware of the movements of events and not be caught by surprise. Wiersbe Bible Commentary: New Testament

There remains the third way of interpreting these words of our Lord, it is to look upon these predictions about the end of the Jewish age as being still future. This is the right and only key to understand these verses. The first part of the Olivet discourse of our Lord is a prediction of how the Jewish age will end. The disciples only knew of a Jewish age. This Jewish age has not yet ended; it has been interrupted. A careful study of the great prophecy in Dan_9:24-27 reveals the fact that one year-week, the seventieth, has not yet been fulfilled. The Christian age, in which God visits the Gentiles and takes out a people for His name, the church, is the great parenthesis, which has come in between the sixty-ninth week and the seventieth week of Daniel. [See also “The Great Parenthesis” by H.A. Ironside.] As soon as the purpose of God is fulfilled, the church complete, the Lord will resume His dealing with Israel and the seventieth week (seven years) will end the Jewish age. Before that end, the seventieth week can come, the church must be complete and be removed from these earthly scenes, according to the divinely revealed destiny of the church. The church complete and taken up, the end of the age will follow and that will be Jewish and as far as the so-called “christian world” is concerned one of complete apostasy. Annotated Bible Old and New Testament

 

[Silverhair]

Why was this dialogue recorded in scripture if the answer given isn't for us today?

(Matthew 24:3)
Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

Did I say it was not for us to study, NO. But you are using a bible written for children as your study bible it seems.

of the end G4930 of the age G165 NKJV+ Age aiṓn (G165) referring to an age or time in contrast to world kósmos (G2889), referring to people or space. The Complete WordStudy Dictionary

We must remember that these Jewish disciples' thinking revolved around the glorious age of the Messiah on earth. They were not thinking about Christ's coming for the church; they knew little if anything about this phase of His coming. Their expectation was His coming in power and glory to destroy His enemies and rule over the world.
Also we should be clear that they were not talking about the end of the world (as in the KJV & NLT), but the end of the age (Greek, aion).

 

[taisto]

Did I say it was not for us to study, NO. But you are using a bible written for children as your study bible it seems.

of the end G4930 of the age G165 NKJV+ Age aiṓn (G165) referring to an age or time in contrast to world kósmos (G2889), referring to people or space. The Complete WordStudy Dictionary

We must remember that these Jewish disciples' thinking revolved around the glorious age of the Messiah on earth. They were not thinking about Christ's coming for the church; they knew little if anything about this phase of His coming. Their expectation was His coming in power and glory to destroy His enemies and rule over the world.
Also we should be clear that they were not talking about the end of the world (as in the KJV & NLT), but the end of the age (Greek, aion).

The disciples asked this question:
(Matthew 24:3)
Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

Here is Jesus answer:
(Matthew 24:4-14)
Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately. Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come. “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.

Whine all you want. Cry about the English translation all you want.
The fact is, Matthew 24 is for us today.

 

[Silverhair]

The disciples asked this question:
(Matthew 24:3)
Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

Here is Jesus answer:
(Matthew 24:4-14)
Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately. Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come. “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.

Whine all you want. Cry about the English translation all you want.
The fact is, Matthew 24 is for us today.

I did not say it could not be applied to us today did I. What you have to remember is that the disciples were Jews and they would not know anything of Gentiles being saved. They would just be thinking of the Romans being driven out and God ruling in Israel. You are looking through a Christian lens.

Prophecy is type and antitype.

Rather than be nasty why don't you actually start reading. The Greek is age G165 not world G2889. This does not fit your view so you reject the truth.

Question for you @taisto, do you live in anticipation of Christ immanent return? If so how do you square that with the view that you are putting forward?

 

[Revmitchell]

The disciples asked this question:
(Matthew 24:3)
Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

Here is Jesus answer:
(Matthew 24:4-14)
Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately. Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come. “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.

Whine all you want. Cry about the English translation all you want.
The fact is, Matthew 24 is for us today.

More of the fruits of the Spirit on display in this post.

 

[canadyjd]

God did make it clear. Jesus said, “after the tribulation” which He had just stated had never been seen before and never would see again.

His 2nd coming is “after the tribulation”. People can debate all they want about everything else, I suppose, but God made this very clear…

…… Jesus returns “after the tribulation”, His saints are gathered… followed by the great throne judgment.

There is no reasonable debate that would deny those facts clearly stated by our Lord Jesus Christ.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

God did make it clear. Jesus said, “after the tribulation” which He had just stated had never been seen before and never would see again.

His 2nd coming is “after the tribulation”. People can debate all they want about everything else, I suppose, but God made this very clear…

…… Jesus returns “after the tribulation”, His saints are gathered… followed by the great throne judgment.

There is no reasonable debate that would deny those facts clearly stated by our Lord Jesus Christ.

peace to you

who denies them?

 

[Silverhair]

God did make it clear. Jesus said, “after the tribulation” which He had just stated had never been seen before and never would see again.

His 2nd coming is “after the tribulation”. People can debate all they want about everything else, I suppose, but God made this very clear…

…… Jesus returns “after the tribulation”, His saints are gathered… followed by the great throne judgment.

There is no reasonable debate that would deny those facts clearly stated by our Lord Jesus Christ.

peace to you

Why do you say these are “speculation”, a 1000 year earthly kingdom, and a separate future for national Israel and the church.

 

[canadyjd]

who denies them?

There is a poster that is claiming these facts are not clearly stated, therefore it is all speculation.

I am only pointing out some things are clearly stated and there is no “speculation” about it.

I didn’t mention you, nor have you in mind at all.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Why do you say these are “speculation”, a 1000 year earthly kingdom, and a separate future for national Israel and the church.

Scripture is very clear concerning those issues as well.

Paul stated in Ephesians there is now no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Both groups have been made into “one new man” by the Cross of Christ and both now have access to God through God Holy Spirit, not through ceremonial sacrifices or earthly priests.

For there to be a separate future for national Israel, the “one new man” must be separated again and the work of Christ in the cross that bound them together must be undone. That is not possible.

Additionally, Paul’s discourse in Romans reveals the descendants of Abraham are not counted according to the flesh, but are children “of the promise”, made up of both Jew and Gentile and together they make up “The Israel of God”.

Revelation 20 (1000 year reign) is, in context, a reward for those martyred during the tribulation. They will reign with Christ for 1000 year. There is no mention of that reign being on earth. Christ reigns in heaven.

Hope that helps your understanding

peace to you

 

[taisto]

I did not say it could not be applied to us today did I. What you have to remember is that the disciples were Jews and they would not know anything of Gentiles being saved. They would just be thinking of the Romans being driven out and God ruling in Israel. You are looking through a Christian lens.

Prophecy is type and antitype.

Rather than be nasty why don't you actually start reading. The Greek is age G165 not world G2889. This does not fit your view so you reject the truth.

Question for you @taisto, do you live in anticipation of Christ immanent return? If so how do you square that with the view that you are putting forward?

Read the end of Matthew 24 and the parables of Matthew 25. Jesus did not leave them unaware.

(Matthew 24:36-51)
“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes. “Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left. Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left. “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected. “A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 25:1-13)
“Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. The five who were foolish didn’t take enough olive oil for their lamps, but the other five were wise enough to take along extra oil. When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. “At midnight they were roused by the shout, ‘Look, the bridegroom is coming! Come out and meet him!’ “All the bridesmaids got up and prepared their lamps. Then the five foolish ones asked the others, ‘Please give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.’ “But the others replied, ‘We don’t have enough for all of us. Go to a shop and buy some for yourselves.’ “But while they were gone to buy oil, the bridegroom came. Then those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was locked. Later, when the other five bridesmaids returned, they stood outside, calling, ‘Lord! Lord! Open the door for us!’ “But he called back, ‘Believe me, I don’t know you!’ “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.

We all must remain diligent and ready for the hour when He comes for us.

Are you ready, Silverhair?