Timing of the Rapture

[37818]

This doesn't help.
Do you see Revelation 20:11-15 as a second coming of Christ where he reigns for an exact 1000 years on earth, . . .

No. After the 1000 years.
". . . And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . ."
So it is before Revelation 21:1.

 

[taisto]

No. After the 1000 years.
". . . And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . ."
So it is before Revelation 21:1.

So, Jesus rules for exactly 1000 years, but not on earth, because he stays in heaven for the 1000 years?

What, exactly is your stated position. Your pointing me toward Bible verses does not, in any way, state your exact position, so please be direct and state your position for us.

 

[kyredneck]

Because Jesus coming in the flesh is supported by scripture.

So, He will be a material King without a material kingdom or a material city?

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Lu 17

18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, Heb 12

 

[canadyjd]

So, He will be a material King without a material kingdom or a material city?

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Lu 17

18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, Heb 12

Right, Jesus says the Kingdom of God is in the “Heavenly Jerusalem”. It cannot be “touched” this side of heaven

peace to you

 

[37818]

So, Jesus rules for exactly 1000 years, but not on earth, because he stays in heaven for the 1000 years?

False. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 , ". . . so shall we ever be with the Lord. . . ." This following the resurrection and rapture.

What, exactly is your stated position. Your pointing me toward Bible verses does not, in any way, state your exact position, so please be direct and state your position for us.

Post-trib Pre-wrath pre-millenium resurrection followed by the rapture.


There is only one second appearing.
There is only one the last trumpet at Christ's appearing.
There is only the one resurrection in the first resurrection.
The rapture immedately only follows with the resurrection.

 

[John of Japan]

Post-trib Pre-wrath pre-millenium resurrection followed by the rapture.

"Post-trib" is the rapture and/or Second Coming after the Tribulation. "Pre-wrath" is the rapture occurring partway through the tribulation but after the judgments of the seven seals, which are said to be Satan's, not God's.

 

[taisto]

False. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 , ". . . so shall we ever be with the Lord. . . ." This following the resurrection and rapture.

Post-trib Pre-wrath pre-millenium resurrection followed by the rapture.


There is only one second appearing.
There is only one the last trumpet at Christ's appearing.
There is only the one resurrection in the first resurrection.
The rapture immedately only follows with the resurrection.

So, no 1000 year reign of Christ?

I still don't follow you.

Every Amillennialist believes in one return of Christ and that we the living church will be caught up to meet him in the air upon his return.

But, you seem to declare a rapture before the 1000 year reign (yet Jesus doesn't come to earth for that period) followed by another outburst by Satan, which then, and only then, Christ returns permanently.

Please tell us exactly what you believe because I cannot,presently, follow your sequence. Are you intending to be vague?

 

[37818]

"Post-trib" is the rapture and/or Second Coming after the Tribulation. "Pre-wrath" is the rapture occurring partway through the tribulation but after the judgments of the seven seals, which are said to be Satan's, not God's.

Those are some of the interpertations.

Pre-wrath passages 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 are used by some, if not many, pre-trib to argue against the post-trib.

Based on Matthew 24:29-31 is part of the post-trib argument along with there can only be one the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Now Revelation 6:16-17 places the wrath after Matthew 24:29, Revelation 6:12.

 

[37818]

So, no 1000 year reign of Christ?

I still don't follow you.

Huh. The 1000 year reign is solely stated in Revelation 20:1-7. And also interpered as the last day, John 6:40. See 2 Peter 3:8, 2 Peter 3:10-13 in a compressed view. Verse 8, ". . . that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. . . ."
Verse 10, ". . . in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein will be burned up. . . ." Revelation 20:11.

 

[percho]

How can you have an order, if you only declare one single event?

1 Cor 15:22 KJV For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Shall - vi Fut Pas 3 P

Verse 23
KJV But every man in his own order:
NIV But each in turn:
NLT But there is an order to this resurrection: / this, being made alive

By the Word of God, what is the order of men who died in Adam, made alive, in to the yo Christ.

Does the Word of God say that takes place for all men at the same time?

Balance of Verse 23
a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

Does time pass by from first-fruit Christ to afterward, is his presence?

What about the rest of the dead? When are the rest of the dead made alive? I believe the Word of God is clear that the event of all being made alive takes place for different men at different times.

 

[taisto]

Huh. The 1000 year reign is solely stated in Revelation 20:1-7. And also interpered as the last day, John 6:40. See 2 Peter 3:8, 2 Peter 3:10-13 in a compressed view. Verse 8, ". . . that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. . . ."
Verse 10, ". . . in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein will be burned up. . . ." Revelation 20:11.

You still are not sharing your stated position.
I must take it, then, that you hold a position that is peculiar only to yourself and not one of the four main interpretations of Revelation.

I cannot make heads nor tails of what it is you actually believe and I am done trying to guess at your cryptic posts.

Have a good day.

 

[percho]

1 Thessalonians 4, "16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

1 Thessalonians 4, "16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

That says nothing about returning to where he descended from, heaven.

Why cannot the following immediately follow that meeting?

Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, “to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 14,15
And?
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zech 14:4

 

[percho]

Right, Jesus says the Kingdom of God is in the “Heavenly Jerusalem”. It cannot be “touched” this side of heaven

peace to you

I like.

Now let's consider some scripture.

when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. From Matt 19:28

When that takes place will there be humans of flesh and blood, having children? Will people still die? Is the the kingdom of or the kingdom of Christ sitting on the throne of David? Consider

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. --- Consider

then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death;

This implies death will be taking place while Christ is ruling and at some point death will be done away and the kingdom {reign} will be delivered up to God even the Father. At this time corruption will have put on incorruption.

Your thoughts, please,

 

[canadyjd]

I like.

Now let's consider some scripture.

when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. From Matt 19:28

When that takes place will there be humans of flesh and blood, having children? Will people still die? Is the the kingdom of or the kingdom of Christ sitting on the throne of David? Consider

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. --- Consider

then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death;

This implies death will be taking place while Christ is ruling and at some point death will be done away and the kingdom {reign} will be delivered up to God even the Father. At this time corruption will have put on incorruption.

Your thoughts, please,

Christ rules from heaven. He allows Satan and his demons to roam the earth looking for people to devour. He will wait until the very last person that is going to be saved, is saved. He will return again in the clouds, gather the elect and immediately proceed to the great throne judgment in heaven.

Peace to you

 

[percho]

Christ rules from heaven. He allows Satan and his demons to roam the earth looking for people to devour. He will wait until the very last person that is going to be saved, is saved. He will return again in the clouds, gather the elect and immediately proceed to the great throne judgment in heaven.

Peace to you

then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death; for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all. 1 Cor 15:24-28

Would you reconcile those verses above relative to Rev 20, 21 and 22

From those scriptures above would you agree that, "then -- the end," is relative to the last enemy to be done away and the kingdom (reign) being delivered up to God even the Father.

What exactly do you believe took place just before, "then -- the end"? Feel free to use any scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

then -- the end, when…. 1 Corinthians 15: 24-25

Would you reconcile those verses above relative to Rev 20, 21 and 22

From those scriptures above would you agree that, "then -- the end," is relative to the last enemy to be done away and the kingdom (reign) being delivered up to God even the Father.

What exactly do you believe took place just before, "then -- the end"? Feel free to use any scripture.

Luckily, if you just go back one verse to 1 Corinthians 15:23, you will clearly see what takes place “just before”? Paul refers to Christ’s 2nd coming in v. 23… then —- the end.

1 Corinthians 15 is a discourse concerning the truth of the resurrection. The passages you quoted must be seen in that context. Paul makes a contrast between that (and those) which are heavenly and that/those that are earthly/fleshly.

The resurrection is concurrent with Christ’s 2nd coming, at which time “the end occurs” and all things are put into subjection and the kingdom of heaven realized for believers.

I have given the context of Revelation on several occasions, I’d rather not repeat it. Suffice to say I find it completely compatible with this reading of 1 Corinthians 15.

peace to you

 

[percho]

Luckily, if you just go back one verse to 1 Corinthians 15:23, you will clearly see what takes place “just before”? Paul refers to Christ’s 2nd coming in v. 23… then —- the end.

1 Corinthians 15 is a discourse concerning the truth of the resurrection. The passages you quoted must be seen in that context. Paul makes a contrast between that (and those) which are heavenly and that/those that are earthly/fleshly.

The resurrection is concurrent with Christ’s 2nd coming, at which time “the end occurs” and all things are put into subjection and the kingdom of heaven realized for believers.

I have given the context of Revelation on several occasions, I’d rather not repeat it. Suffice to say I find it completely compatible with this reading of 1 Corinthians 15.

peace to you

for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, From 1 Cor 15:21,22,23

There is an order, in which man is made alive, out of the death, that came through man.

Around 2000 years ago, the man Christ, was made alive, resurrected out of the dead, to die no more. That man 40 days later ascended to heaven.
That was order No. 1.
When that man comes again, those who have the first-fruit of the Spirit, those in Christ will, in his presence will be made alive.
That is order No. 2.

Then the end. The end of what? The end of being made alive.
Order No 3.

But what does the Word say must take place before the rest of the dead are made alive.
Christ must reign and all things be put under his feet with the last thing being done away, death.
And Rev 20 tells us that Christ and those made alive in his presence rule for 1000 years and then the rest of the dead are made alive.

Then the kingdom is delivered up to God even the Father.

Christ, 2000 years later those who are Christ's, 1000 years later the rest of the dead.

The order of man being made alive out of the dead.

For all, yes or no. Is that what the Word of God states?

 

[canadyjd]

for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, From 1 Cor 15:21,22,23

There is an order, in which man is made alive, out of the death, that came through man.

Around 2000 years ago, the man Christ, was made alive, resurrected out of the dead, to die no more. That man 40 days later ascended to heaven.
That was order No. 1.
When that man comes again, those who have the first-fruit of the Spirit, those in Christ will, in his presence will be made alive.
That is order No. 2.

Then the end. The end of what? The end of being made alive.
Order No 3.

But what does the Word say must take place before the rest of the dead are made alive.
Christ must reign and all things be put under his feet with the last thing being done away, death.
And Rev 20 tells us that Christ and those made alive in his presence rule for 1000 years and then the rest of the dead are made alive.

Then the kingdom is delivered up to God even the Father.

Christ, 2000 years later those who are Christ's, 1000 years later the rest of the dead.

The order of man being made alive out of the dead.

For all, yes or no. Is that what the Word of God states?

Wow!! That is simply not supported by the text of 1 Corinthians 15. So, no, that is not what the Word of God says.

We will disagree

peace to you

 

[timtofly]

“Then shall the Kingdom of Heaven be likened…” Please notice the word “likened”.

Jesus is using a metaphor, which He did on a regular basis. This means He is not literally speaking of “ten virgins” in Heaven. He is not literally speaking of a man in Heaven going on a trip.

hope that helps

Peace to you

So you claim Matthew 25 is only a metaphor about life in heaven, and has nothing to do with earth at all?

 

[canadyjd]

So you claim Matthew 25 is only a metaphor about life in heaven, and has nothing to do with earth at all?

I’m saying the parables are metaphors, which is clear in context.

Jesus is obviously warning His followers to be prepared for His return as if it could happen at any moment. That has implications for how they live their lives in earth.

peace to you